topic Re: To pay... Or not to pay.. Yet...is the question in Credit Cards

To pay... Or not to pay.. Yet...is the question

Milano — Sun, 29 Nov 2020 08:03:52 GMT

So I'm still overexcited and stoked about having done so well to get my credit score moving in a great direction this past few months and being approved for a few cards I never expected to get... (like amex anything)

My biggest issue has been utilization. I've made great strides in this department especially with the new lines of credit more than doubling my previous overall amount available.

That said, I still worry about keeping util low.

Right now, it's a bit of a joke because I'll pay my cards every single day if I've used them, sometimes I'll send two payments in a day.

Should I just keep track of when each card reports to the CRAs and then make my payment a day or three beforehand? I see a lot of posts about statement dates and due dates... But the date I think I should worry about is the report to credit agency date, no?

How do you guys do it? I'm still in the overzealous stage and I know I'll calm down about it soon... But right now I want to make my best effort to look amazing every time a report comes out. I pay my BCP card a LOT because it's got a SL of $1000 and I don't want to see high util bc of that.

Re: To pay... Or not to pay.. Yet...is the question

Anonymous — Sun, 29 Nov 2020 08:05:33 GMT

The report to credit agency date isn't that important for utilization concerns, it's not real-time data that is reported. Nearly all (main exception US Bank/Elan) report the statement balance, regardless of the date they send it to the agencies. (US Bank reports balance on the last business day of the month or something like that)

Paying regularly before the statement cuts, especially two or more times a day, only makes sense in a few situations.

1) Utilization is very high and there is a fear of adverse action by one or more lenders. So don't want to add to the balance.

2) Major application coming up and need to maximize score (AZEO). Some people do this all the time, which costs in that you are not getting the advantage of a float, for little gain

3) Psychological/budgeting, if you hate the idea of having any debt.

Once you have an old thick profile, it's much easier just to PIF once the statement cuts.

Re: To pay... Or not to pay.. Yet...is the question

TheFIGuy — Sun, 29 Nov 2020 08:29:04 GMT

Adding to one of the GOAT's @Anonymous, you could align all your CC due dates on a similar day (other than USB). This will help with reporting and timing future CC applications.

Also, I'm a bit of a redundancy guy, but I auto-pay all my CC's on the same day three business days before their actual due date. If any issues occur, I have time to call the financial institutions and correct the mistake.

Re: To pay... Or not to pay.. Yet...is the question

Milano — Sun, 29 Nov 2020 18:17:36 GMT

@TheFIGuy wrote:
Adding to one of the GOAT's @Anonymous, you could align all your CC due dates on a similar day (other than USB). This will help with reporting and timing future CC applications.

Also, I'm a bit of a redundancy guy, but I auto-pay all my CC's on the same day three business days before their actual due date. If any issues occur, I have time to call the financial institutions and correct the mistake.

Thank you. I use YNAB for my budget so the cash is always set aside for every new CC purchase I make. I finally have gotten to the point where all my bills (except for CC's) are on autopay. It's a nice feeling. I think it's time to get the CC's on the auto-pay also... after seeing if I can adjust the due dates to be a little more cohesive. I've had like 11 inquiries this month alone so it'll be a while before I app a new CC.

Re: To pay... Or not to pay.. Yet...is the question

Milano — Sun, 29 Nov 2020 18:21:02 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
The report to credit agency date isn't that important for utilization concerns, it's not real-time data that is reported. Nearly all (main exception US Bank/Elan) report the statement balance, regardless of the date they send it to the agencies. (US Bank reports balance on the last business day of the month or something like that)

Paying regularly before the statement cuts, especially two or more times a day, only makes sense in a few situations.
1) Utilization is very high and there is a fear of adverse action by one or more lenders. So don't want to add to the balance.
2) Major application coming up and need to maximize score (AZEO). Some people do this all the time, which costs in that you are not getting the advantage of a float, for little gain
3) Psychological/budgeting, if you hate the idea of having any debt.

Once you have an old thick profile, it's much easier just to PIF once the statement cuts.

I didn't realize they're just sending in a statement balance typically. If that's true (and I have no reason to doubt it)....... I guess you're right. I'm being #3 and I should just pay to zero when the statement comes.... I'm earning interest (whatever pittance it is) on that money anyway. I don't have anything with US Bank yet, but I do want their Cash Plus card.. so I will remember this information for the (far) future! Thank you.

Re: To pay... Or not to pay.. Yet...is the question

TheFIGuy — Sun, 29 Nov 2020 18:45:55 GMT

@Milano,

Hello fellow YNABer, I have been using YNAB for many years now and cannot see a way to finance without it. If you ever have specific questions regarding YNAB and CC's shoot me a PM. I would be happy to help!

Re: To pay... Or not to pay.. Yet...is the question

Milano — Sun, 29 Nov 2020 19:17:04 GMT

@TheFIGuy wrote:
@Milano,

Hello fellow YNABer, I have been using YNAB for many years now and cannot see a way to finance without it. If you ever have specific questions regarding YNAB and CC's shoot me a PM. I would be happy to help!

Awesome! I been doing it since mid August this year. I've never felt so organized with money before and my wife gets an enormous peace of mind by getting to see and understand where all the money goes. Huge relief for us both. I've been through all the videos by Nick True and thats been a great help... But it's nice to have an additional resource. Thank you!

Re: To pay... Or not to pay.. Yet...is the question

TheFIGuy — Sun, 29 Nov 2020 19:17:29 GMT

Hey @Milano,

Funny story to that number 3 comment. I just let the balance build and pay it off once a month as I stated before.

AMEX gives me a call halfway in my cycle and states my bill is rather large excess of 5k+ or something. They state can I pay 1-2k/ to keep my NPSL power and continue charging away. Being a YNABer I'm like well you guys obviously don't fully "trust" me with this balance yet I'll just pay it completely off. The AMEX representative paused and starts profusely apologizing. I reassure them it's not their fault and let's just pay the full current balance and make a note on my account so I won't have this issue again around this balance mark.

AMEX says they will need to 3-way Charles Schwab (My Bank), Them, and I to open up the balance immediately. I'm like cool beans! We call and AMEX verified with Schwab I had the current balance available for payment and that was it. Schwab was real cool about it also, like "Yes he has plenty available to pay that measly 5k balance 😂😌." Didn't say measly of course but the tone implied it.

Moral of this story, it's an amazing feeling YNABing and always having that full CC balance available to pay.

I know others have different methods and YNAB isn't the only way but it's amazing feeling! Just wanted to share OP!

Re: To pay... Or not to pay.. Yet...is the question

TheFIGuy — Sun, 29 Nov 2020 19:20:26 GMT

@Milano Nick is the GOAT of YNAB! I try and talk with him 2x a year to stay in touch. Hoping one day he can swing by California and say "hi" in person too.

Re: To pay... Or not to pay.. Yet...is the question

BAD_UP — Sun, 29 Nov 2020 20:57:06 GMT

@Milano

Your story sound similar to mines when I start working towards bring down my utilization(realizing that's the only thing that was affecting my credit). I start writing down all my cards due date & statement dates along with setting up notifications reminders several days prior my due dates so I can try strategize lowering my aggregated thresholds before the end of statement date. I know sometimes it make you feel that your are a lil obsess with keeping a low utilization but the reward seeing your score rise is priceless.

Re: To pay... Or not to pay.. Yet...is the question

Anonymous — Sun, 29 Nov 2020 22:52:35 GMT

I use all my cards and PIF once a month after the statement ✂️ and after it reports to each bureau. I like to show my cards being used, which is good provided that you don't run into utilization issues.

Re: To pay... Or not to pay.. Yet...is the question

Anonymous — Mon, 30 Nov 2020 00:08:38 GMT

I would not suggest cycling mid-month past what the actual limit of the card is. However, thus far, AmEx and Chase have actually liked multiple payments per month (much earlier than expected auto-CLI, in less than a year's time).

Re: To pay... Or not to pay.. Yet...is the question

Anonymous — Mon, 30 Nov 2020 02:14:47 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
I use all my cards and PIF once a month after the statement ✂️ and after it reports to each bureau. I like to show my cards being used, which is good provided that you don't run into utilization issues.

This is generally good with few exceptions. Scoring models such as VantageScore have reacted negatively to changes in my credit profile based on the DIRECTION my balances are headed, even if they did not cross a known FICO utilization threshold. It's a much more speculative product than FICO. And by speculative I mean making baseless assumptions on a single month-to-month change and no established trend. All else constant, a card with a $0 balance now reporting a $500 balance posted can result in a lower score as if they are wary of "escalating debt" despite it being well under the 28.9% line threshold, and the 8.9% aggregate threshold. There have been times when my Vantage and FICO 8 were neck-and-neck, and there have been times when my Vantage was 50 points lower than my FICO. Never the other way around, though.

Also, a reason for denial has been stated as "time since last revolving account was maxed out". This could easily be someone using a credit product feature. Example: Approved for a $5000 card, borrower does a $5000 BT for 0% interest so he can pay it down more quickly.

Re: To pay... Or not to pay.. Yet...is the question

Anonymous — Mon, 30 Nov 2020 04:13:51 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
@Anonymous wrote:
I use all my cards and PIF once a month after the statement ✂️ and after it reports to each bureau. I like to show my cards being used, which is good provided that you don't run into utilization issues.

This is generally good with few exceptions. Scoring models such as VantageScore have reacted negatively to changes in my credit profile based on the DIRECTION my balances are headed, even if they did not cross a known FICO utilization threshold. It's a much more speculative product than FICO. And by speculative I mean making baseless assumptions on a single month-to-month change and no established trend. All else constant, a card with a $0 balance now reporting a $500 balance posted can result in a lower score as if they are wary of "escalating debt" despite it being well under the 28.9% line threshold, and the 8.9% aggregate threshold. There have been times when my Vantage and FICO 8 were neck-and-neck, and there have been times when my Vantage was 50 points lower than my FICO. Never the other way around, though.

Also, a reason for denial has been stated as "time since last revolving account was maxed out". This could easily be someone using a credit product feature. Example: Approved for a $5000 card, borrower does a $5000 BT for 0% interest so he can pay it down more quickly.

For me, it doesn't make much difference. I'm at 66% utilization on my CFU card. I'm finding that Chase reports a few days after statement cuts. So on my CFF, its been reporting 0% utilization forever because I pay immediately after it cuts. This time, and going forward I want to report a balance on that card, so I hold back the payment for several days, and so the balance went from $0 to $1,062. My other cards all report balances as well. I have "escalating debt" as my CFU goes up at least $1,000/mo while I pay the minimum. I am on a 0% promo until June 30th and will PIF then.

I got an Experian 8 alert when the card reported because of the card's significant increase in balance. My score went from 828 to 828.

So for me, what you say might not apply or mean much. For OP, it might be a completely different story and I agree with the possible outcome you stated.

So I try to report a balance on all cards just to show usage and don't care about possible score penalties.

Re: To pay... Or not to pay.. Yet...is the question

Anonymous — Mon, 30 Nov 2020 04:57:40 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
@Anonymous wrote:
@Anonymous wrote:
I use all my cards and PIF once a month after the statement ✂️ and after it reports to each bureau. I like to show my cards being used, which is good provided that you don't run into utilization issues.

This is generally good with few exceptions. Scoring models such as VantageScore have reacted negatively to changes in my credit profile based on the DIRECTION my balances are headed, even if they did not cross a known FICO utilization threshold. It's a much more speculative product than FICO. And by speculative I mean making baseless assumptions on a single month-to-month change and no established trend. All else constant, a card with a $0 balance now reporting a $500 balance posted can result in a lower score as if they are wary of "escalating debt" despite it being well under the 28.9% line threshold, and the 8.9% aggregate threshold. There have been times when my Vantage and FICO 8 were neck-and-neck, and there have been times when my Vantage was 50 points lower than my FICO. Never the other way around, though.

Also, a reason for denial has been stated as "time since last revolving account was maxed out". This could easily be someone using a credit product feature. Example: Approved for a $5000 card, borrower does a $5000 BT for 0% interest so he can pay it down more quickly.
For me, it doesn't make much difference. I'm at 66% utilization on my CFU card. I'm finding that Chase reports a few days after statement cuts. So on my CFF, its been reporting 0% utilization forever because I pay immediately after it cuts. This time, and going forward I want to report a balance on that card, so I hold back the payment for several days, and so the balance went from $0 to $1,062. My other cards all report balances as well. I have "escalating debt" as my CFU goes up at least $1,000/mo while I pay the minimum. I am on a 0% promo until June 30th and will PIF then.

I got an Experian 8 alert when the card reported because of the card's significant increase in balance. My score went from 828 to 828.

So for me, what you say might not apply or mean much. For OP, it might be a completely different story and I agree with the possible outcome you stated.

So I try to report a balance on all cards just to show usage and don't care about possible score penalties.

I believe Chase is one that reports the balance again, mid-cycle, after a payment is made. (Or it could just be one report, but later-than-typical as you say), and include some people's payments who pay early enough.

Could be hard to tell with a product reporting weekly or less often. If you have a daily updating source (such as free Experian app) you can probably tell with certainty.

You mentioned "Experian 8" - I imagine the FICO product? I haven't seen FICO be moody like that, only VantageScore 3.0. I can't speak for other versions of VS.

Re: To pay... Or not to pay.. Yet...is the question

Anonymous — Mon, 30 Nov 2020 13:12:55 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
@Anonymous wrote:
@Anonymous wrote:
@Anonymous wrote:
I use all my cards and PIF once a month after the statement ✂️ and after it reports to each bureau. I like to show my cards being used, which is good provided that you don't run into utilization issues.

This is generally good with few exceptions. Scoring models such as VantageScore have reacted negatively to changes in my credit profile based on the DIRECTION my balances are headed, even if they did not cross a known FICO utilization threshold. It's a much more speculative product than FICO. And by speculative I mean making baseless assumptions on a single month-to-month change and no established trend. All else constant, a card with a $0 balance now reporting a $500 balance posted can result in a lower score as if they are wary of "escalating debt" despite it being well under the 28.9% line threshold, and the 8.9% aggregate threshold. There have been times when my Vantage and FICO 8 were neck-and-neck, and there have been times when my Vantage was 50 points lower than my FICO. Never the other way around, though.

Also, a reason for denial has been stated as "time since last revolving account was maxed out". This could easily be someone using a credit product feature. Example: Approved for a $5000 card, borrower does a $5000 BT for 0% interest so he can pay it down more quickly.
For me, it doesn't make much difference. I'm at 66% utilization on my CFU card. I'm finding that Chase reports a few days after statement cuts. So on my CFF, its been reporting 0% utilization forever because I pay immediately after it cuts. This time, and going forward I want to report a balance on that card, so I hold back the payment for several days, and so the balance went from $0 to $1,062. My other cards all report balances as well. I have "escalating debt" as my CFU goes up at least $1,000/mo while I pay the minimum. I am on a 0% promo until June 30th and will PIF then.

I got an Experian 8 alert when the card reported because of the card's significant increase in balance. My score went from 828 to 828.

So for me, what you say might not apply or mean much. For OP, it might be a completely different story and I agree with the possible outcome you stated.

So I try to report a balance on all cards just to show usage and don't care about possible score penalties.
I believe Chase is one that reports the balance again, mid-cycle, after a payment is made. (Or it could just be one report, but later-than-typical as you say), and include some people's payments who pay early enough.

Could be hard to tell with a product reporting weekly or less often. If you have a daily updating source (such as free Experian app) you can probably tell with certainty.

You mentioned "Experian 8" - I imagine the FICO product? I haven't seen FICO be moody like that, only VantageScore 3.0. I can't speak for other versions of VS.

I just checked cap one credit wise, since it is Vantagescore 3.0, and yes, I lost 2 points maybe due to CFF increasing from 0 to $1,062.

Re: To pay... Or not to pay.. Yet...is the question

disney2 — Mon, 30 Nov 2020 21:14:59 GMT

I love that so many are using YNAB. I used it for many years and stopped when they started charging yearly. I've been meaning to sign back up but haven't. Maybe you all will motivate me to do that because I loved it and it was beneficial.

Re: To pay... Or not to pay.. Yet...is the question

TheFIGuy — Mon, 30 Nov 2020 21:27:04 GMT

@disney2 Chanting: SIGN-UP, SIGN-UP, SIGN-UP, Just do it

I personally couldn't handle CC's the way I do without YNAB.

Re: To pay... Or not to pay.. Yet...is the question

disney2 — Mon, 30 Nov 2020 21:38:28 GMT

Lol! The only way I've been doing it is by using Prism. It works for the most part but some of the cards have issues sometimes. I like it but it doesn't do budgeting.

Re: To pay... Or not to pay.. Yet...is the question

TheFIGuy — Mon, 30 Nov 2020 21:46:36 GMT

@disney2 I didn't know PRISM was still around. I used it a long time ago before I knew of the wonders of YNAB. My offer is extended to you as well. If you need some help with nYNAB shoot me a PM.