topic Re: Changes to Chase terms: Cash-like transactions in Credit Cards

Changes to Chase terms: Cash-like transactions

fiddycal — Wed, 27 Jan 2021 16:36:19 GMT

I received a notice from Chase about changes to terms for my CSP starting 4/1, including an expanded definition of cash-like transactions that adds "person-to-person money transfers and account-funding transactions that transfer currency" and "making a payment using a third party service including bill payment transactions not made directly with the merchant or their service provider." This doesn't really affect me, but I thought others might be interested.

Re: Changes to Chase terms: Cash-like transactions

SecretAzure — Wed, 27 Jan 2021 17:13:05 GMT

Oh I do not like this at all. I'm removing my Chase CC as my backup payment method on Cash App immediately.

Re: Changes to Chase terms: Cash-like transactions

K-in-Boston — Wed, 27 Jan 2021 17:17:11 GMT

This definitely seems to be a recurring theme with card issuers. With the popularity of Venmo, many issuers have begun considering them to be cash advances. The funding of DDAs hasn't been quite as common, but certainly not the first we've seen of it.

Re: Changes to Chase terms: Cash-like transactions

SecretAzure — Wed, 27 Jan 2021 17:25:13 GMT

@K-in-Boston wrote:
This definitely seems to be a recurring theme with card issuers. With the popularity of Venmo, many issuers have begun considering them to be cash advances. The funding of DDAs hasn't been quite as common, but certainly not the first we've seen of it.

Why would they disencentivize this? I don't use Venmo but on Cash, the company takes an additional fee of which, I'm sure Chase and others get their cuts. And they still collect interest on these charges. It seems like lenders want to triple-dip on your dime (I consider CA 2 because they're basically assuming it's a greater risk to them so they charge you a higher interest rate).

Do they treat buying a Vanilla Gift Card the same way? I've never seen a higher interest charge when I've bought them before but I don't buy those often so IDK.

Re: Changes to Chase terms: Cash-like transactions

Rockysocks — Wed, 27 Jan 2021 17:31:32 GMT

Would that last bullet also target PayPal Key?

Re: Changes to Chase terms: Cash-like transactions

K-in-Boston — Wed, 27 Jan 2021 17:34:59 GMT

The banks look at it as skirting their cash advance policies. While they do collect their usual Interchange fees for the transaction, if it were an actual cash advance it begins to accrue interest immediately at a usually much higher APR (with some exceptions like some credit union cards (not NFCU, theirs are higher) and Barclaycard Ring that come to mind) than your purchase APR which has a grace period. And most financial institutions also charge a cash advance fee on top of that. I am not so sure it's a matter or nickel-and-diming to squeeze out extra fees, as a reaction to widespread abuse.

As for gift cards, those are tangible goods so there is a real sale but they are also considered to be cash equivalents and for obvious reasons many card issuers will identify excessive purchases of those to be rewards abuse.

Re: Changes to Chase terms: Cash-like transactions

K-in-Boston — Wed, 27 Jan 2021 17:37:33 GMT

@Rockysocks wrote:
Would that last bullet also target PayPal Key?

Possible, but unlikely as PayPal Key would be similar to paying a merchant directly who accepts PayPal. They appear on statements the same way as organic PP transactions. This is likely more geared toward Plastiq and similar bill payer services.

Re: Changes to Chase terms: Cash-like transactions

FinStar — Wed, 27 Jan 2021 17:42:53 GMT

To add to what @K-in-Boston mentioned upthread, this isn't so much about the potential loss on incentives or interchange fees @SecretAzure. It's also about banks adapting to the ever changing AML landscape and stringent regulatory oversight. Think about how many individuals skirt around these guardrails on a daily basis and exploit a variety of loopholes.

Re: Changes to Chase terms: Cash-like transactions

simplynoir — Wed, 27 Jan 2021 18:09:55 GMT

I always assumed the changes made today with regard to cash equivalents was more to make sure cryptocurrency and other digital currency is clearly labeled as a cash advance. Or maybe it's always been there but I'll be honest in saying I don't really read the T&C closely when changes are instituted

Re: Changes to Chase terms: Cash-like transactions

IntegerIntrovert — Thu, 28 Jan 2021 05:29:42 GMT

Wow! Thanks for sharing. This is an important change, as a result I suspect we will see all the major issures follow suit. IMHO this is likely due to widespread fraud. Putting my black hat on for a second, I would much rather use a compromised account to venmo at a 3% rate to another involved account and drain the balance of the card for cash then make purchases for hard goods.

I can see this being a major game changer.

Re: Changes to Chase terms: Cash-like transactions

Anonymous — Thu, 28 Jan 2021 20:07:32 GMT

I wonder if this means if we send money to someone using Paypal using our card as a funding source, would Chase treat it as a cash advance?

Re: Changes to Chase terms: Cash-like transactions

SecretAzure — Thu, 28 Jan 2021 20:23:37 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
I wonder if this means if we send money to someone using Paypal using our card as a funding source, would Chase treat it as a cash advance?

This is my interpretation...I'm hoping they make an exception for PayPal but I guess we don't know until enforcement of these things happens.

Re: Changes to Chase terms: Cash-like transactions

gdale6 — Thu, 28 Jan 2021 20:34:33 GMT

I got this for the original freedom I have, their greed has no bounds, they are also raising minimum pay to 40. That is what they used to be in the 1980s guess they want to crash the economy and push more into default. Its this kind of bs that makes me only use the card for the high cash back of 5%....

Re: Changes to Chase terms: Cash-like transactions

Anonymous — Thu, 28 Jan 2021 20:28:19 GMT

@gdale6 wrote:
I got this for the original freedom I have, their greed has no bounds, they are also raising minimum pay to 40. That is what they used to be in the 1980s guess they want to crash the economy and push more into default. Its this kind of bs that makes me only use the cards for the high cash back....

I wonder if there is a cost to the high cash back that makes them....., no can't be!

Re: Changes to Chase terms: Cash-like transactions

Remedios — Thu, 28 Jan 2021 20:36:45 GMT

@FinStar wrote:
To add to what @K-in-Boston mentioned upthread, this isn't so much about the potential loss on incentives or interchange fees @SecretAzure. It's also about banks adapting to the ever changing AML landscape and stringent regulatory oversight. Think about how many individuals skirt around these guardrails on a daily basis and exploit a variety of loopholes.

Not me!

I'm total vanilla ever since my mom caught me stealing gum, made me go back to the store, and as a punishment, I had to break boxes for what seemed like eternity. (At least an hour!)

You'd think at ripe age of 9, I would have been better at covering up crimes, instead I blew bubbles

Re: Changes to Chase terms: Cash-like transactions

gdale6 — Thu, 28 Jan 2021 20:37:22 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
@gdale6 wrote:
I got this for the original freedom I have, their greed has no bounds, they are also raising minimum pay to 40. That is what they used to be in the 1980s guess they want to crash the economy and push more into default. Its this kind of bs that makes me only use the cards for the high cash back....
I wonder if there is a cost to the high cash back that makes them....., no can't be!

Nope, not when they make billions per quarter, the lastest 12.1B for Q4 2020 that that would be 48B a year profit......

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/jpmorgan-chase-2020-q4-earnings-033209896.html

Re: Changes to Chase terms: Cash-like transactions

Anonymous — Thu, 28 Jan 2021 21:55:06 GMT

@Remedios wrote:
@FinStar wrote:
To add to what @K-in-Boston mentioned upthread, this isn't so much about the potential loss on incentives or interchange fees @SecretAzure. It's also about banks adapting to the ever changing AML landscape and stringent regulatory oversight. Think about how many individuals skirt around these guardrails on a daily basis and exploit a variety of loopholes.
Not me!
I'm total vanilla ever since my mom caught me stealing gum, made me go back to the store, and as a punishment, I had to break boxes for what seemed like eternity. (At least an hour!)
You'd think at ripe age of 9, I would have been better at covering up crimes, instead I blew bubbles

Nice try. The police report on the unsolved cold case tells a different story, for "boxes" read "bodies".
"Multiple witnesses reported seeing a pre-teen female fleeing the scene, with visible blood stains, yelling something about a gun, or possibly gum"

Re: Changes to Chase terms: Cash-like transactions

FinStar — Thu, 28 Jan 2021 22:53:08 GMT

@gdale6 wrote:
@Anonymous wrote:
@gdale6 wrote:
I got this for the original freedom I have, their greed has no bounds, they are also raising minimum pay to 40. That is what they used to be in the 1980s guess they want to crash the economy and push more into default. Its this kind of bs that makes me only use the cards for the high cash back....
I wonder if there is a cost to the high cash back that makes them....., no can't be!
Nope, not when they make billions per quarter, the lastest 12.1B for Q4 2020 that that would be 48B a year profit......

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/jpmorgan-chase-2020-q4-earnings-033209896.html

Right, but this doesn't break down the results for Chase Credit Card performance, this is just the overall picture. Typically, the Corporate & Investment side/LOB is the top earner. I haven't seen their 2020 AR as of yet, but I'd be curious to see how FY2020 compares to FY2019 with the pandemic factors influence.

Just looking at a snapshot for their Consumer Banking arm and comparing 4Q20 vs 3Q20 shows a steady rise in average CC loans, but down when comparing 4Q20 vs 4Q19.

Chase Policy Change Email?

Repairman — Sun, 31 Jan 2021 04:40:51 GMT

I've seen elsewhere online, people talk about getting an email from Chase this past week essentially saying they were putting into effect new policies that would make so called manufactured spending prohibitive. Essentially, they will begin treating charges like tax payments, lottery tickets, or money order purchases, just to name a few, as cash advances and not only not give points for said purchases, but they would charge you a cash advance fee. Has anyone here heard that or received such email? I am not a manufactured spending person, but I am considering paying this year's tax liability via credit card, and was thinking of looking into a new Chase card to do it. I've never paid taxes with a credit card before, and if what was stated above is true, that would be a huge bummer. Can anyone confirm this information?

Re: Chase Policy Change Email?

FinStar — Sun, 31 Jan 2021 04:55:57 GMT

@Repairman- an active discussion already exists on this topic from a couple days ago so no need for a separate thread. The snapshot of the changes is highlighted on the first post.