topic Re: Nusenda switcheroo...a downside of rotators in Credit Cards

Nusenda switcheroo...a downside of rotators

PullingMeSoftly — Wed, 06 Apr 2022 18:14:11 GMT

While I'm a fan of 5% rotators/selectors, and have structured my cash back setup around them, it is a bit irritating that a CU can switch up the categories at the last moment.

While it appeared that Nusenda's 2022 calendar was published in advance and a done deal (following their multiple years of Q1/Q3 gas and Q2/Q4 restaurant rotation), Q2 changed completely on April 1st from Restaurants/Movie Theaters to Furnishings/Home Improvement/Gardening:

This is a concerning change, as the pic above looks like a published full year calendar, and would lead anyone to believe that Q3 will be gas and Q4 will be restaurants. That was always the nice thing about Nusenda, being able to count on their steady categories year to year. Maybe some will be happy with the new categories, but i think this was a douchy last minute change-up when they were already showing their full calendar......Citi CC back to dining duty for Q2.

Re: Nusenda switcheroo...a downside of rotators

Aim_High — Wed, 06 Apr 2022 20:10:43 GMT

That stinks, @PullingMeSoftly. I don't think I've seen a switcheroo before. How annoying!

I admire you guys who are willing to do the legwork and remain flexible to manage multiple rotators to pump up your rewards earnings. I was headed in the direction of more 5% cards and then I started to question if I really wanted to manage all of that and if the incremental rewards increase would be worth the hassle. In my case, I decided it was not. Even though my Chase Freedom (original) was one of my only 5% cards, I closed it recently after letting it go inactive.

While I don't mind some category cards, I prefer having cards that I have some control over the category like the Bank of America Customized Cash Rewards, US Bank Cash Plus/Elan Max Cash Preferred, or Citi Custom Cash. They can be 'permanent' category cards without having to remember to rotate them, and I can pick categories that will always be useful instead of having "empty" quarters where the card just sits. Spending caps are the other aspects of these cards that I questioned. If my spending is more than the cap, I have to remember to rotate cards even within the quarter where it earns 5%. If my spending is less, then the question arises if I'm getting enough value from the 5% over a basic 3% card like AOD to make it worthwhile. But overall, I'm finding I prefer the simplicity of uncapped and uncategorized type of cards like my AOD FCU Visa (3%), BofA Premium Rewards (2.625%), or even just my PenFed Power Cash Rewards (2%).

Did you have other plans for Citi Custom Cash before you reassigned it to Restaurant duty? And what will you use to fill that gap?

Re: Nusenda switcheroo...a downside of rotators

PullingMeSoftly — Wed, 06 Apr 2022 21:52:49 GMT

@Aim_High wrote:
That stinks, @PullingMeSoftly.   I don't think I've seen a switcheroo before. How annoying!

I admire you guys who are willing to do the legwork and remain flexible to manage multiple rotators to pump up your rewards earnings. I was headed in the direction of more 5% cards and then I started to question if I really wanted to manage all of that and if the incremental rewards increase would be worth the hassle. In my case, I decided it was not.   Even though my Chase Freedom (original) was one of my only 5% cards, I closed it recently after letting it go inactive.

While I don't mind some category cards, I prefer having cards that I have some control over the category like the Bank of America Customized Cash Rewards, US Bank Cash Plus/Elan Max Cash Preferred, or Citi Custom Cash. They can be 'permanent' category cards without having to remember to rotate them, and I can pick categories that will always be useful instead of having "empty" quarters where the card just sits. Spending caps are the other aspects of these cards that I questioned. If my spending is more than the cap, I have to remember to rotate cards even within the quarter where it earns 5%. If my spending is less, then the question arises if I'm getting enough value from the 5% over a basic 3% card like AOD to make it worthwhile.   But overall, I'm finding I prefer the simplicity of uncapped and uncategorized type of cards like my AOD FCU Visa (3%), BofA Premium Rewards (2.625%), or even just my PenFed Power Cash Rewards (2%).

Did you have other plans for Citi Custom Cash before you reassigned it to Restaurant duty? And what will you use to fill that gap?

Always enjoy reading your perspective @Aim_High. Totally agree regarding the use of cards that can be set to your choice of "permanent" categories rather than rotators. Sometimes rotators are a bit more trouble than they are worth, but yet a fun mental exercise to stay on top of the highest earnings I can get (as far as cash back goes). I do get "rotator fatigue" from time to time, but am now seeing which cards are truly coming through with the most value (i.e. Affinity Cash Rewards being my most valued card and true daily driver). I definitely enjoy the advantage of the Citi CC, Cash+, and my Safe CU card that allow me to set my own 5% categories, so in total agreement there. This is one of the reasons I want to apply for the Vantage West Connect this summer, to be able to set wholesale as a permanent category.

Strategy for Q2 looks like this:

Groceries: Affinity 7%, BCP 6%
Restaurants: Citi CC 5%, GO 4%
Gas: Affinity 7%, Disco 5%
Costco: Affinity 7%
Auto Repairs: Safe CU 5%
Amazon: Freedom 5%, Affinity 5%
Cell/Home Phone/Internet/Utilities: Cash+ 5%
Uncategorized: AOD 3%, Fidelity 2%, PenFed PC 2%

I was hoping to start using the Citi CC for other wildcards like a possible sub-$500 non-Hilton hotel coming up, or as a Walgreens card this quarter (and eventually a groceries replacement for the BCP). I've got my DW and DS set up with a BCP/Alt. Go/Fidelity combo, keeping them out of the rotating game, which proves simplicity ends up being best in the long run.

Re: Nusenda switcheroo...a downside of rotators

Anonymous — Thu, 07 Apr 2022 00:03:51 GMT

@Aim_High wrote:
Spending caps are the other aspects of these cards that I questioned. If my spending is more than the cap, I have to remember to rotate cards even within the quarter where it earns 5%. If my spending is less, then the question arises if I'm getting enough value from the 5% over a basic 3% card like AOD to make it worthwhile. But overall, I'm

Yes, and even if everything is perfect, compared to a flat 3% the gains are relatively small. If every quarter I spend the maximum $1500, I end up with $120 per year more than if I just used say AOD. Now $120 isn't nothing, but a) that is best case and b) have to take into account the effort of management (which includes remembering to use it, registering it when needed, and, as @Aim_High says, tracking it to $1,500 so you can switch if necessary. )

In addition, other cards can compete, e.g. I was planning to use Discover for gas this quarter, but Chase Amazon is also giving me 5%, and that is a card I use heavily.

So, bottom line, it may be hard to justify getting a pure revolver over another card that may have more earning potential.

Yes, I have 4 (Freedom, Freedom Flex, Discover, Dividend) but that's not the point. Really!

Re: Nusenda switcheroo...a downside of rotators

Aim_High — Thu, 07 Apr 2022 18:16:59 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
.... Yes, I have 4 (Freedom, Freedom Flex, Discover, Dividend) but that's not the point. Really!

LOL ... you were so convincing

right up until the "I have 4!" @Anonymous

I had such high hopes for Chase Freedom as part of the "Trifecta" combined with Sapphire Reserve. That 5% "could have been" worth even 7.5% to 10% ... in theory. In theory ... that's $300 in cash, $450 in the travel portal, or $600 if transferred to partners. Looks so good on paper. But as I did the math and looked at my actual spending, I realized that I would have quarters where I spent nothing since the category wasn't organic spend (or I had another card to use, or a SUB to meet), I normally would spend only about $500 to $1K on the categories that were useful, and I would probably redeem in-travel portal instead of using partners. Plus, I already had very good rewards on some of the popular categories with other cards such as gas, groceries, or online shopping, so the incremental increase had to be calculated above my next-best card, not just above a flat-rate 1.5% to 2% card. In the end, I estimated that Freedom might yield a grand total of $100 to $150 a year for me, or about $8 to $12 a month for having to manage another card. (The cash back incremental rate was only about $50 a year, so even less.) I'm not saying they don't work well for some consumers, but it just depends and I think it's easy to overestimate the value. This is not to mention that I found I dislike having to remember which category was active on which card.

I've still got my Discover and I'll keep it. It's valuable to me since it's my oldest currently active card. I've product changed it multiple times from the original Discover to the Discover MORE to the Discover Chrome and eventually to the Discover IT 5% category card after resisting the whole rotating category thing.

Re: Nusenda switcheroo...a downside of rotators

NoHardLimits — Thu, 07 Apr 2022 06:59:49 GMT

I am also contemplating the value of my 5% rotators. I currently have 3 of them (Freedom Visa, Dividend, and Discover), but my main spending categories are already covered by other permanent 5% cards (Amazon, old Blue Cash, and Ink Cash). As a result, the rotators mostly sit in the sock drawer with a small monthly charge to keep them active.

My new plan is to add some US Bank cards to my portfolio. I got my foot in the door last month with Altitude Connect, but I plan to downgrade to Cash+ after one year to give myself two more permanent 5% categories of my choosing. At that point, I will probably convert my Dividend to a Custom Cash for another permanent 5% category of my choice.

In the meantime, I will nurture my new US Bank relationship by putting a variety of organic spend on the Connect so that they can get to know me better. My hope is they will approve me for an Altitude Reserve card later this year with a usable credit limit so that I can give the 3% mobile wallet category a try.

Re: Nusenda switcheroo...a downside of rotators

Aim_High — Fri, 08 Apr 2022 03:17:40 GMT

@PullingMeSoftly wrote:
Always enjoy reading your perspective @Aim_High. Totally agree regarding the use of cards that can be set to your choice of "permanent" categories rather than rotators. Sometimes rotators are a bit more trouble than they are worth, but yet a fun mental exercise to stay on top of the highest earnings I can get (as far as cash back goes). I do get "rotator fatigue" from time to time, but am now seeing which cards are truly coming through with the most value ...

I think rewards optimizers like yourself enjoy the "gamesmanship" of beating the system as much as the actual cash rewards, which is fine! For those who enjoy the challenge and don't mind putting in the extra effort, the rotators do add some incremental value per card. But to do it sustained over time, it takes some dedication and motivation that I think has to come from somewhere beyond just the cash rewards, and that's where the "hobby" or "game" of the rewards helps to keep you going. On the other hand, some of us just don't want to play, especially for what I see as a nominal additional value for the hassle of managing.

Which brings up a little different spin on the rotators card topic, @PullingMeSoftly: Do you set any kind of minimum threshold for yourself where that incremental added value becomes too much trouble, or is ANY additional savings worth the pursuit ? This conversation ties into my recent posts about the "Pareto Principle" and "The Law of Diminishing Returns" that I posted about in another recent thread >>HERE<< and >>HERE<<.

For me, I found that even $100 to $150 a year on my Freedom was on the edge of being worthy of a "keeper;" I did heavily evaluate that move and the ultimate decision to close it. When I weighed the hassle of activating and tracking categories, carrying another card, remembering which card to use and where, and managing charges and payments on another card, and averaged that out over the added value per month, $8 a month just didn't seem worthwhile for the headache. Now keep in mind that I've also considered the US Bank Cash+ or Elan Max Cash Preferred, primarily for the 5% on home utilities. The savings for me would be comparable to Freedom. However, the difference is that utilities are a category where I know I'll always spend money, month-after-month, and I can leave the card at home to auto-bill from the sock drawer. For not having to carry a card and remember when/where to use it, that might be acceptable, so I'm still considering one of those cards. But for me, the savings would have to exceed that $150 annually on a new rotator (with all the rotator challenges) to make it worth my while. I know some on My Fico have accurately pointed out that instead of saving a little here and a little there, it's also possible to get the same annual savings with one excellent targeted SUB application worth several hundred dollars. I'd probably be more likely to do that than manage multiple rotators to get the same equivalent savings. But, that's just my style and my preference. We all have to figure out what works best for us.

Re: Nusenda switcheroo...a downside of rotators

unsungivy — Thu, 07 Apr 2022 20:51:42 GMT

Loving this discussion.

I personally decided that the rotators, for me, were too much of a hassle... the more cards I got the less value they had to me. I closed out my Discover card since it was a bigger pain to remember what it was for RIGHT THEN, and to remind Player Two constantly, than it was worth to keep it. I think a card that has regular categories IN ADDITION to rotating categories is worth it, however. Since you hold it for a different reason, and then get a fun boost at times (such as the Affinity FCU for Amazon, and the Chase Freedom~ for dining, if you don't have better. And of course, the bonus 5% gas on the Amazon card itself right now).

Re: Nusenda switcheroo...a downside of rotators

OmarR — Fri, 08 Apr 2022 00:25:21 GMT

@PullingMeSoftly wrote:
While I'm a fan of 5% rotators/selectors, and have structured my cash back setup around them, it is a bit irritating that a CU can switch up the categories at the last moment.

While it appeared that Nusenda's 2022 calendar was published in advance and a done deal (following their multiple years of Q1/Q3 gas and Q2/Q4 restaurant rotation), Q2 changed completely on April 1st from Restaurants/Movie Theaters to Furnishings/Home Improvement/Gardening:

This is a concerning change, as the pic above looks like a published full year calendar, and would lead anyone to believe that Q3 will be gas and Q4 will be restaurants. That was always the nice thing about Nusenda, being able to count on their steady categories year to year. Maybe some will be happy with the new categories, but i think this was a douchy last minute change-up when they were already showing their full calendar......Citi CC back to dining duty for Q2.

Thank you so much for posting this.

I have been swiping this card for the last 7 days, thinking that their Q2 categories was a done deal. And quite frankly, if it was wasn't for their prior history of constantly having the same two restaurant categories each year, I would have cancelled this card or sock drawered it a long time ago. Another nitpick is that their reward redemption requires it to be in increments of $50.

Re: Nusenda switcheroo...a downside of rotators

NoHardLimits — Fri, 08 Apr 2022 04:04:31 GMT

@unsungivy wrote:

I closed out my Discover card since it was a bigger pain to remember what it was for RIGHT THEN, and to remind Player Two constantly, than it was worth to keep it.

My Player 2 is also not fond of keeping track of changing categories. This invariably leads to the "wrong" card being used. I simplify P2's wallet with Old Blue Cash (gas, grocery, drugstore), Freedom Flex (dining), and Double Cash. Amazon and Ink Cash stay at home but are used online.

Re: Nusenda switcheroo...a downside of rotators

NoHardLimits — Fri, 08 Apr 2022 04:24:12 GMT

@OmarR wrote:
I have been swiping this card for the last 7 days, thinking that their Q2 categories was a done deal. And quite frankly, if it was wasn't for their prior history of constantly having the same two restaurant categories each year, I would have cancelled this card or sock drawered it a long time ago. Another nitpick is that their reward redemption requires it to be in increments of $50.

The Citi Dividend also has a $50 minimum redemption. Historically, Dividend ~~has dining in Q3 and~~ Best Buy in Q4 which fits well with my spending patterns. I will be annoyed if these reliable categories unexpectedly change like Nusenda's.

Re: Nusenda switcheroo...a downside of rotators

OmarR — Fri, 08 Apr 2022 09:45:27 GMT

@NoHardLimits wrote:
@OmarR wrote:
I have been swiping this card for the last 7 days, thinking that their Q2 categories was a done deal. And quite frankly, if it was wasn't for their prior history of constantly having the same two restaurant categories each year, I would have cancelled this card or sock drawered it a long time ago. Another nitpick is that their reward redemption requires it to be in increments of $50.

The Citi Dividend also has a $50 minimum redemption. Historically, Dividend ~~has dining in Q3 and~~ Best Buy in Q4 which fits well with my spending patterns. I will be annoyed if these reliable categories unexpectedly change like Nusenda's.

True on the Dividend, but Nusenda is INCREMENTS of $50. So it's even worse.

Re: Nusenda switcheroo...a downside of rotators

Anonymous — Fri, 08 Apr 2022 13:26:13 GMT

@OmarR wrote:
@NoHardLimits wrote:
@OmarR wrote:
I have been swiping this card for the last 7 days, thinking that their Q2 categories was a done deal. And quite frankly, if it was wasn't for their prior history of constantly having the same two restaurant categories each year, I would have cancelled this card or sock drawered it a long time ago. Another nitpick is that their reward redemption requires it to be in increments of $50.

The Citi Dividend also has a $50 minimum redemption. Historically, Dividend ~~has dining in Q3 and~~ Best Buy in Q4 which fits well with my spending patterns. I will be annoyed if these reliable categories unexpectedly change like Nusenda's.

True on the Dividend, but Nusenda is INCREMENTS of $50. So it's even worse.

And the dividend isn't limited to $1500 a quarter, you can put the whole $6K on a "good" quarter, making the $50 easier to reach

Re: Nusenda switcheroo...a downside of rotators

PullingMeSoftly — Fri, 08 Apr 2022 17:12:15 GMT

@Aim_High wrote:
I think rewards optimizers like yourself enjoy the "gamesmanship" of beating the system as much as the actual cash rewards, which is fine! For those who enjoy the challenge and don't mind putting in the extra effort, the rotators do add some incremental value per card. But to do it sustained over time, it takes some dedication and motivation that I think has to come from somewhere beyond just the cash rewards, and that's where the "hobby" or "game" of the rewards helps to keep you going. On the other hand, some of us just don't want to play, especially for what I see as a nominal additional value for the hassle of managing.

Which brings up a little different spin on the rotators card topic, @PullingMeSoftly: Do you set any kind of minimum threshold for yourself where that incremental added value becomes too much trouble, or is ANY additional savings worth the pursuit ? This conversation ties into my recent posts about the "Pareto Principle" and "The Law of Diminishing Returns" that I posted about in another recent thread >>HERE<< and >>HERE<<.

This is spot on in terms of my mindset @Aim_High...extracting every percent of value has become a hobby over the last couple of years. Unfortunately I've become a little too obsessive about it and at one point was driving my DW crazy trying to get her to play along! While the hobby aspect of using rotators is still fun to a degree, the sustained dedication and motivation that you mention above is exactly what is starting to diminish over time, and I can see a simplification of my lineup in the near future. As a side note, I've also enjoyed working my way into some of these credit unions as a means to access their credit products, but even that is something I probably won't be doing much of in the future.

I don't really have a minimum threshold for determining whether or not the returns are worth the effort, as I've become a bit too myopic about just having the highest percentage possible per spend category. To use a cycling reference, I'm like Dave Brailsford of Sky/Ineos looking at the accumulation of marginal gains. A great case in point would be my Altiutude GO card...My dining expenditures are roughly $500/month. So for $6000-ish annual dining spend, the GO returns $240 vs. $300 with a 5% rotator/selector. On the surface that $60 is small, but in combination with the rest of my 5%-7% lineup, the combination of marginal gains starts to add up. The point at which the hassle starts to outweigh the benefit is when spending goes over the monthly/quarterly cap, then I have to revert back to an underlying card (i.e. Citi CC back to the GO). Affinity and Safe Cu are easier in that regard as their caps are much higher, so those aren't any trouble.

Your question is an important one to ask and I really need to start looking at the incremental benefits more closely, especially as I'm approaching the point of applying for some new cards this summer. May be an opportunity to begin some simplification or possibly move away from rotators (Disco, Freedom, Nusenda) and over to selectors (Citi CC, Vantage West, another Cash+ etc). One of my next apps will likely be the Vantage West Connect, which I can set as a "permanent" Costco card, and I'm considering an additional Citi card (Premier) so I can PC it into an additional Custom Cash (many DP's on this being done for multiple Citi CC's on Reddit and DOC here).

Also, similar to your Marriott Brilliant experience, I've found incredible value with my Hilton Aspire. Although I don't travel frequently, when I do, this card has given me way overrsized value, especially since I can use the $250 airline credit with United Travelbank, and have received the $250 resort credit when we've done some summer vacations at Hilton's designated "resorts". Also the Diamond status always gets us a room upgrade at our local wine country DoubleTree. This card has blown away many of my cash back cards, and if the chief and I start travelling more frequently I would have to reassess the benefit of going to a travel setup (MR's, UR's, or additional hotel/airline cards).

I'll be 0/12 and 4/24 in July, so I'm starting to warm up the engines, looking forward to how the future plays out.

Re: Nusenda switcheroo...a downside of rotators

PullingMeSoftly — Fri, 08 Apr 2022 17:35:02 GMT

@OmarR wrote:
@PullingMeSoftly wrote:
While I'm a fan of 5% rotators/selectors, and have structured my cash back setup around them, it is a bit irritating that a CU can switch up the categories at the last moment.

While it appeared that Nusenda's 2022 calendar was published in advance and a done deal (following their multiple years of Q1/Q3 gas and Q2/Q4 restaurant rotation), Q2 changed completely on April 1st from Restaurants/Movie Theaters to Furnishings/Home Improvement/Gardening:

This is a concerning change, as the pic above looks like a published full year calendar, and would lead anyone to believe that Q3 will be gas and Q4 will be restaurants. That was always the nice thing about Nusenda, being able to count on their steady categories year to year. Maybe some will be happy with the new categories, but i think this was a douchy last minute change-up when they were already showing their full calendar......Citi CC back to dining duty for Q2.

Thank you so much for posting this.

I have been swiping this card for the last 7 days, thinking that their Q2 categories was a done deal. And quite frankly, if it was wasn't for their prior history of constantly having the same two restaurant categories each year, I would have cancelled this card or sock drawered it a long time ago. Another nitpick is that their reward redemption requires it to be in increments of $50.

Agreed @OmarR, the $50 redemption threshold is excessive. Over the past two quarters, I've noticed that I'm not even using the Nusenda card much, partially because Affinity's % stacking and sharing similar categories (groceries, gas) makes it a higher value go-to. I'll most likely be using Nusenda up to the full cap for my DS's tuition in Q3 though. By the way, when I first started building my portfolio I would refer to your signature as a model lineup to strive for! (Still waiting for you to change that Fort Knox image into an Abound haha)

Re: Nusenda switcheroo...a downside of rotators

NoHardLimits — Fri, 08 Apr 2022 18:17:27 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
@OmarR wrote:
@NoHardLimits wrote:
@OmarR wrote:
I have been swiping this card for the last 7 days, thinking that their Q2 categories was a done deal. And quite frankly, if it was wasn't for their prior history of constantly having the same two restaurant categories each year, I would have cancelled this card or sock drawered it a long time ago. Another nitpick is that their reward redemption requires it to be in increments of $50.

The Citi Dividend also has a $50 minimum redemption. Historically, Dividend ~~has dining in Q3 and~~ Best Buy in Q4 which fits well with my spending patterns. I will be annoyed if these reliable categories unexpectedly change like Nusenda's.

True on the Dividend, but Nusenda is INCREMENTS of $50. So it's even worse.
And the dividend isn't limited to $1500 a quarter, you can put the whole $6K on a "good" quarter, making the $50 easier to reach

Yes, I once used almost the entire $6000 on a single category (furniture).

Re: Nusenda switcheroo...a downside of rotators

Aim_High — Fri, 08 Apr 2022 19:25:19 GMT

@PullingMeSoftly wrote:

This is spot on in terms of my mindset @Aim_High...extracting every percent of value has become a hobby over the last couple of years. Unfortunately I've become a little too obsessive about it and at one point was driving my DW crazy trying to get her to play along! While the hobby aspect of using rotators is still fun to a degree, the sustained dedication and motivation that you mention above is exactly what is starting to diminish over time, and I can see a simplification of my lineup in the near future. As a side note, I've also enjoyed working my way into some of these credit unions as a means to access their credit products, but even that is something I probably won't be doing much of in the future.

I don't really have a minimum threshold for determining whether or not the returns are worth the effort, as I've become a bit too myopic about just having the highest percentage possible per spend category ... the combination of marginal gains starts to add up. The point at which the hassle starts to outweigh the benefit is when spending goes over the monthly/quarterly cap, then I have to revert back to an underlying card ...

Your question is an important one to ask and I really need to start looking at the incremental benefits more closely, especially as I'm approaching the point of applying for some new cards this summer. May be an opportunity to begin some simplification or possibly move away from rotators (Disco, Freedom, Nusenda) and over to selectors (Citi CC, Vantage West, another Cash+ etc) ...

I like the way you distinguished "rotators" from "selectors," @PullingMeSoftly. I don't think I've heard it expressed that way but it's a good distinction. Yes, given the option, I would much prefer "selectors" to "rotators" and especially selectors that have static categories that rarely if ever change.

Yes, I can see how the incremental rewards can have a synergy as a whole if you're playing your spend from various angles. I think where I fell with that decision is, "how many angles am I willing to play for x% of rewards?" And unlike yours, my threshold isn't unlimited. I'm not a true card minimalist to where I'd put all my charges on one or two cards, regardless of the the lost rewards. But at the same time, I'm not a true optimizer either who has a high tolereance for many cards to find the best return. I'm somewhere in-between. I'm better off focusing on above-average rewards on a handful of my higher spend areas and letting the others slide. Again, the Pareto Principle or 80/20 rule to get much of the value with less overall effort.

Definitely, keep DW happy in the process. Most of our significant others don't share our enthusiasm and I think being too obsessive about credit and rewards can be problematic in relationships! So I like your idea of giving DW and DS an AOD FCU Visa 3% card and being done with it! I'm sure they would love you for it.