topic Re: Having terrible luck with Amex customer support. in Credit Cards

Having terrible luck with Amex customer support.

Cleaningitup2016 — Wed, 07 Dec 2022 02:18:37 GMT

I was approved for an Amex Platinum. I know quite well how a charge card works, ring up $500 in charges, pay $500 before the due date, you pay it in full (PIF).

Well Amex told me the more I spend and pay (frequency of payments), the more "spending power I will unlock".

I've had the card two months, and when my statement cut 11/25, I had an adjusted balance of around $3800.

Which I've since paid down to $2400, and now apparently my card is being denied.

Call to find out, and they said "I need to pay more down".

I paid $450 towards it today, and still denied.

Well the first rep said "making a payment will unlock the spending power right away".

Second rep said "well actually it has to clear your bank, the balance will adjust instantly, your spending power will not".

But here is the thing..not counting "uncleared" payments, I made $750 in payments, and have only charged around $200 and am still hitting the wall.

So I call back to the payments team and they try to explain to me "we can usually instantly verify funds with your bank".

Um..what? Unless I've given them my banks log in info (which I have not), I'm not familar with any other method that would allow them to do this.

I do know there is "instant bank verification" (IBV), but a credit card company or app (like the ones that monitor your bank accounts for tracking spending), but you usually have to give them permission by way of log in. A company cannot just be given your routing and account number and spy on your bank balance.

I've spoken to 8 agents now, both onshore and offshore, who have given me a totally different explanation as to what is going on.

For a card with a nearly $700 Annual fee, I've gotten better help and straightfoward answers from Capital One.

Re: Having terrible luck with Amex customer support.

BronzeTrader — Wed, 07 Dec 2022 02:10:20 GMT

What is your credit profile and your relationship with AmEx?

You need good relationship with AmEx with regard to those charge cards.

Re: Having terrible luck with Amex customer support.

wasCB14 — Wed, 07 Dec 2022 02:25:45 GMT

It sounds like you're making a lot of small payments, and haven't finished paying off the balance from 11/25. This behavior may give them the impression you don't have a whole lot of cash on hand.

Re: Having terrible luck with Amex customer support.

Blender — Wed, 07 Dec 2022 02:29:02 GMT

@Cleaningitup2016 wrote:
I was approved for an Amex Platinum. I know quite well how a charge card works, ring up $500 in charges, pay $500 before the due date, you pay it in full (PIF).
Well Amex told me the more I spend and pay (frequency of payments), the more "spending power I will unlock".
I've had the card two months, and when my statement cut 11/25, I had an adjusted balance of around $3800.
Which I've since paid down to $2400, and now apparently my card is being denied.
Call to find out, and they said "I need to pay more down".
I paid $450 towards it today, and still denied.
Well the first rep said "making a payment will unlock the spending power right away".
Second rep said "well actually it has to clear your bank, the balance will adjust instantly, your spending power will not".
But here is the thing..not counting "uncleared" payments, I made $750 in payments, and have only charged around $200 and am still hitting the wall.
So I call back to the payments team and they try to explain to me "we can usually instantly verify funds with your bank".
Um..what? Unless I've given them my banks log in info (which I have not), I'm not familar with any other method that would allow them to do this.
I do know there is "instant bank verification" (IBV), but a credit card company or app (like the ones that monitor your bank accounts for tracking spending), but you usually have to give them permission by way of log in. A company cannot just be given your routing and account number and spy on your bank balance.
I've spoken to 8 agents now, both onshore and offshore, who have given me a totally different explanation as to what is going on.
For a card with a nearly $700 Annual fee, I've gotten better help and straightfoward answers from Capital One.

I dont discredit your frustrations, but the bold highlight above leads me to believe you're fairly new with amex. And its true what the two posters above me have already stated. Just like with most things credit, it takes time. Build your relationship with them and they will give you more.

Re: Having terrible luck with Amex customer support.

Cleaningitup2016 — Wed, 07 Dec 2022 02:54:27 GMT

@wasCB14 wrote:
It sounds like you're making a lot of small payments, and haven't finished paying off the balance from 11/25. This behavior may give them the impression you don't have a whole lot of cash on hand.

Everyone I know with an Amex charge card charges their entire monthly spend that can be charged (obviously many bills, mortgage/rent/car payment, etc cannot) and pays the bill in full by the due date. They use it like a debit card.

The issue is that the internal limit they gave me is not in alignment with my spending needs. They themselves told me if that's the case, I need to make frequent payments to lower the balance.

Because if you don't, in the first few months of card ownership, the spending limit won't increase to match. At least that is what they told me.

Part of the problem is that plagues fintech is everything is algorithim based anymore. You used to be able to call up most card companies and ask for a manual review of your credit limit, hardly anyone does that anymore.

The problem by leaving everything up to a computer and so called "AI", is that it seems everyone I speak to can't give me correct information on how to properly use the card. Because they themsleves don't actually know all the influcing factors at play.

Even 10 years ago, if you had a soft limit of say $3,000 on your Amex charge card and needed to make a one time purchase of $10,000, you could speak to a human would would make that decision to grant you to go "above and beyond". All I get now is pretty much a scripted response that if I could sum up, would be "we filed off the numbers of a barometer and put a range from $1000 to $100,000 and that is how we decide your spending power".

Re: Having terrible luck with Amex customer support.

Cleaningitup2016 — Wed, 07 Dec 2022 03:07:34 GMT

@Blender wrote:
I dont discredit your frustrations, but the bold highlight above leads me to believe you're fairly new with amex. And its true what the two posters above me have already stated. Just like with most things credit, it takes time. Build your relationship with them and they will give you more.

Yes, I am new with them. Have had the card a bit less than two months.

I am more than happy to build a relationship with them if they would give me correct information. You'd think the platinum card, their most expensive card to own, would have more informed customer agents than the lower tier cards. Or maybe they just reserve that now for the Centurion.

When someone tells you "I see your balance is at it's soft limit, if you pay $500 now, you will regain $500 in spending power".

When you make a total of nearly $1100 in payments over the course of a week, charge a bit less than $300 and hit the "Wall" again, then what the agent said was incorrect.

But then you call them up and they say "well the payment has to post first". When the agent beforehand said "spending power is instantly regained by a payment".

When you spend nearly $700 on a Credit Card, and receive highly inaccurate customer service, and this is coming from someone who used to deal with Credit One Bank, it kind of makes you feel that Amex must of hired a bunch of new people.

Re: Having terrible luck with Amex customer support.

FinStar — Wed, 07 Dec 2022 03:06:48 GMT

@Cleaningitup2016 wrote:
@wasCB14 wrote:
It sounds like you're making a lot of small payments, and haven't finished paying off the balance from 11/25. This behavior may give them the impression you don't have a whole lot of cash on hand.
Everyone I know with an Amex charge card charges their entire monthly spend that can be charged (obviously many bills, mortgage/rent/car payment, etc cannot) and pays the bill in full by the due date. They use it like a debit card.

The issue is that the internal limit they gave me is not in alignment with my spending needs. They themselves told me if that's the case, I need to make frequent payments to lower the balance.

Because if you don't, in the first few months of card ownership, the spending limit won't increase to match. At least that is what they told me.

Part of the problem is that plagues fintech is everything is algorithim based anymore. You used to be able to call up most card companies and ask for a manual review of your credit limit, hardly anyone does that anymore.

The problem by leaving everything up to a computer and so called "AI", is that it seems everyone I speak to can't give me correct information on how to properly use the card. Because they themsleves don't actually know all the influcing factors at play.
Even 10 years ago, if you had a soft limit of say $3,000 on your Amex charge card and needed to make a one time purchase of $10,000, you could speak to a human would would make that decision to grant you to go "above and beyond". All I get now is pretty much a scripted response that if I could sum up, would be "we filed off the numbers of a barometer and put a range from $1000 to $100,000 and that is how we decide your spending power".

Sounds like you're more miffed about how AI does things than anything. Machine learning has curbed losses over the years for a lot of financial institutions whether you embrace it or not. The days of manual transactional reviews to allow any charges to go through on manual or judgemental review are now in the past.

So, the AI innovation, while not 100% perfect can make better UW decisions about your financial profile and habits in seconds than what used to be measured years ago, especially when it comes to account abuse, fraud, or default. Like it or not, it's here to stay.

Another item to keep in mind, other individuals would have no issues with a brand new AmEx Platinum (Gold, Green...pick your flavor) since it's all profile dependent, different reported incomes and verifiable assets or resources, history, etc.

Re: Having terrible luck with Amex customer support.

wasCB14 — Wed, 07 Dec 2022 03:10:10 GMT

They made one risk assessment of you when they approved you. That risk assessment may have changed when you only paid off about a third of your $3800 balance. That may be why repaying $500 doesn't make $500 of credit available again. It's not a revolver, where they will necessarily inform you of any limit changes.

Re: Having terrible luck with Amex customer support.

tparks5961 — Wed, 07 Dec 2022 03:30:12 GMT

Building a relationship with Amex is like aging a fine.

It will be good over time, but you have to build it just right.. You can't build the relationship too fast, and if you do things too slow, that can also slow you down.

Things that I know about Amex through my personal experiences with them.

You will be given a soft limit on your new charge accounts. This internal limit will adjust with your spending patterns over time. The algorithm has to learn your spending patterns. The trick is that the algorithm will grow based on a combination of your posted balance and your largest purchases. So let's say you make it all the way to your statment closing date with a 0.00 balance because you've paid it off several times during the months... You future spending will be calculated based on $0. So it would be best to report a balance on your card for the first 3 months.

You can speed the learning process up by prepaying on your account. So let's say you want to make a $10,000.00 purchase... Make a payment of $10,000.00 to have a credit on the account. Then make the purchase. This will have your highest spend amount at $10,000.00 and will tweek the algorithm to raise your internal limit.

At one point while I was bulding up my internal limit, I called and told them this card felt like an over priced pre paid credit card.

At some point, you'll be in a sweet spot.. which most people end up. If you ever get to the point where your spending per months gets into the $10's of thousands, youll eventually run into a financial review... I wont go into all that right now..

In the end, it's a good card. But the process to build up your spending limit can be extremely frustrating. You just have to decide if it's worth it.

Re: Having terrible luck with Amex customer support.

Cleaningitup2016 — Wed, 07 Dec 2022 03:39:21 GMT

@FinStar wrote:
Sounds like you're more miffed about how AI does things than anything. Machine learning has curbed losses over the years for a lot of financial institutions whether you embrace it or not. The days of manual transactional reviews to allow any charges to go through on manual or judgemental review are now in the past.

So, the AI innovation, while not 100% perfect can make better UW decisions about your financial profile and habits in seconds than what used to be measured years ago, especially when it comes to account abuse, fraud, or default. Like it or not, it's here to stay.

Another item to keep in mind, other individuals would have no issues with a brand new AmEx Platinum (Gold, Green...pick your flavor) since it's all profile dependent, different reported incomes and verifiable assets or resources, history, etc.

The problem with curbing losses is anytime the bank loses, which sometimes is done on purpose (a lot of bad loans precursor to the 08 collapse were already KNOWN to be bad), they tighten the rules for EVERYONE.

So if the bank loses, we all lose, and I don't really like that kind of collective punishment.

I mean if you were accused of murder, would you want your court case decided by a computer algorithm? I don't think so.

There is several issues. The first being "AI", is a joke. Artificial intelligence, as in "electronically being able to think for itself" does not even exist. It's machine learning. Which lacks reasoning and logic, the basics of AI.

The second is that any program is only as good as the data it's presented with. Companies have taken it upon themselves to hide the basis of influence. Even your Fico score is "computed" but it's some secret as to what exactly goes into it. You can't call them up and ask "if I increase my balance by $1,000, what will my Fico score then be?".

When you hide behind data like the man behind the curtain in the wizard of Oz, it makes me question if everyone is dealt a fair hand, because if they won't disclose ANY of the calculations, how do you know there aren't other factors at play? What if they slightly give lower Fico scores to people on the west coast than the east? Or Homeowners higher score than renters? Because I find it quite funny my pre-approval notices for credit cards increased TENFOLD the month after I bought a house. You can say "well they wouldn't do that"..but being secret with data is never good. Especially data that if known, would be of no detriment. It's fico score calculations, not nuclear secrets.

Even if someone fully hacked them and found the entire calculation models, what harm could they possibly achieve with that?

So yes, it does tick me off a bit when you used to get an actual voice that would tell you "right now your balance to credit limit is at 25%, if you get that down to 18% we should have no issue approving you".

Now you get a form letter that says "BALANCE TO CREDIT LIMITS TOO HIGH"..which is nice information...but they seem to purposely leave out what the magic number is. Luckily I've used my credit union for years because they don't leave credit up to the almighty computer. They will actually TELL ME what I need to improve in order to qualify for a loan, house, etc.

I really don't get why card companies make it a secret. Unless they like to see people piss away inquiries.

Logically I think the secrecy behind all this is because they can put hidden data sets in their code and play dumb about it. Otherwise it should be spelled out, plain as day on their website what the actual requirements are like "must not have more than 1 collection on their credit report, credit score must be at least 700, applicant must earn at least $2,000 monthly in income". When you hide data and make applying some song and dance bit that should not be taking place to begin with, it makes me rather suspect.

Lastly..if you have no manual review process...and for whatever reason you need to use your credit card on an emergency basis, say for instance your pet is about ready to kick the bucket, a human would most likely talk to the Vet ER Clinic and approve the spend, but all a computer will do is say "nope". There is no "pretty please"'ing around it.

There are far, far too many instances and unique situations that would take hundreds of thousands of lines of codes to make a computer even understand a minute fraction of day to day financial lives.

Honestly I think it's less about curbing loses and more about trying to give computers more choice power to eliminate manpower.

It's the same reason why fully self driving cars won't be a thing for quite some time. There is way to many calcuations going on in the mind of a human, some 35,000 per day to be exact, and many of them are unique and take some form of emotion to arrive at a result, and I doubt electronic emotion will be something seen in the lifetime of people who are just now being born.

Re: Having terrible luck with Amex customer support.

Cleaningitup2016 — Wed, 07 Dec 2022 03:46:05 GMT

@tparks5961 wrote:
So it would be best to report a balance on your card for the first 3 months.

Wait what? I thought Amex hates seeing balances on their charge cards? I know pay over time is a thing, but from what I can gather online, Amex would rather not see you use it.

Are you talking about a balance when the statement cuts (balance reported to credit bureaus) or a "carry over balance", as in not completely paying the card in full by the due date?

Re: Having terrible luck with Amex customer support.

FinStar — Wed, 07 Dec 2022 03:45:27 GMT

Well, bottom line, if you want to play in the AmEx sandbox, AI is their game, like it or not. Another member has also shared their experience upthread so you have some perspective as to how AmEx may approach some transactional situations. But, in the current world of AI-driven decisions, I suppose you have choices 🤷‍♂️

Re: Having terrible luck with Amex customer support.

FinStar — Wed, 07 Dec 2022 03:46:54 GMT

@Cleaningitup2016 wrote:
@tparks5961 wrote:
So it would be best to report a balance on your card for the first 3 months.
Wait what? I thought Amex hates seeing balances on their charge cards? I know pay over time is a thing, but from what I can gather online, Amex would rather not see you use it.
Are you talking about a balance when the statement cuts (balance reported to credit bureaus) or a "carry over balance", as in not completely paying the card in full by the due date?

The bolded part.

Re: Having terrible luck with Amex customer support.

Cleaningitup2016 — Wed, 07 Dec 2022 04:09:36 GMT

@FinStar wrote:
@Cleaningitup2016 wrote:
@tparks5961 wrote:
So it would be best to report a balance on your card for the first 3 months.
Wait what? I thought Amex hates seeing balances on their charge cards? I know pay over time is a thing, but from what I can gather online, Amex would rather not see you use it.
Are you talking about a balance when the statement cuts (balance reported to credit bureaus) or a "carry over balance", as in not completely paying the card in full by the due date?
The bolded part.

Ok, thank goodness. I'm sure there are some people who have the money to pay when the statement cuts, but it would be kinda silly to do so. IIRC charge card balances don't affect utilization because there is not a limit to compare it to (maybe that's why people like them over credit cards?)

I also found out that the adjusted balance is leftover from the previous statement, so the total balance which "can take up to 24 hours to update" seems to be used in Amex and their choice to extend credit/ spending power. So technically your not paying off new charges until you completely zero out the adjusted balance.

So now I'm kinda wondering if spending power isn't instantly increased with payments. Despite what an Amex rep told me.

Re: Having terrible luck with Amex customer support.

Cleaningitup2016 — Wed, 07 Dec 2022 04:12:05 GMT

So I yet again called Amex and asked them directly:

"Can you tell me, not just based on what you think to be correct, but by actually referencing policy, which you can double check with your superiors if need be, if making a payment has or does not have bearing on your spending power until said payment posts to your account"?

They said "spending power is not affected until the payment posts to the account".

It's a bit weird with my Capital One Business Card, making a payment instantly reduces the balance AND increases my credit limit by the payment amount.

I don't know why making a payment on my Amex charge card instantly shows a lower balance but does not instantly impact the spending power. It seems kind of disadvantageous to show a reduced balance if it's not having any bearing on spending power.

Re: Having terrible luck with Amex customer support.

SouthJamaica — Wed, 07 Dec 2022 05:22:56 GMT

@Cleaningitup2016 wrote:
I was approved for an Amex Platinum. I know quite well how a charge card works, ring up $500 in charges, pay $500 before the due date, you pay it in full (PIF).
Well Amex told me the more I spend and pay (frequency of payments), the more "spending power I will unlock".
I've had the card two months, and when my statement cut 11/25, I had an adjusted balance of around $3800.
Which I've since paid down to $2400, and now apparently my card is being denied.
Call to find out, and they said "I need to pay more down".
I paid $450 towards it today, and still denied.
Well the first rep said "making a payment will unlock the spending power right away".
Second rep said "well actually it has to clear your bank, the balance will adjust instantly, your spending power will not".
But here is the thing..not counting "uncleared" payments, I made $750 in payments, and have only charged around $200 and am still hitting the wall.
So I call back to the payments team and they try to explain to me "we can usually instantly verify funds with your bank".
Um..what? Unless I've given them my banks log in info (which I have not), I'm not familar with any other method that would allow them to do this.
I do know there is "instant bank verification" (IBV), but a credit card company or app (like the ones that monitor your bank accounts for tracking spending), but you usually have to give them permission by way of log in. A company cannot just be given your routing and account number and spy on your bank balance.
I've spoken to 8 agents now, both onshore and offshore, who have given me a totally different explanation as to what is going on.
For a card with a nearly $700 Annual fee, I've gotten better help and straightfoward answers from Capital One.

Amex does this to its charge card holders, especially during the first 6 months of the relationship. They keep you guessing as to your secret internal soft limit, which is one of the reasons I no longer have an Amex charge card. That annual fee you mention is one of the other reasons.

Re: Having terrible luck with Amex customer support.

BronzeTrader — Wed, 07 Dec 2022 05:55:50 GMT

@Cleaningitup2016 wrote:
Ok, thank goodness. I'm sure there are some people who have the money to pay when the statement cuts, but it would be kinda silly to do so. IIRC charge card balances don't affect utilization because there is not a limit to compare it to (maybe that's why people like them over credit cards?)

I also found out that the adjusted balance is leftover from the previous statement, so the total balance which "can take up to 24 hours to update" seems to be used in Amex and their choice to extend credit/ spending power. So technically your not paying off new charges until you completely zero out the adjusted balance.

So now I'm kinda wondering if spending power isn't instantly increased with payments. Despite what an Amex rep told me.

Somehow it shows your lack of understanding of AmEx charge cards.

A charge card does not have the stated "credit line". But It has "buying power". When some cowboy goes to a Wild West General Store, the owner may want to give him a charge account. The owner has a certain limit in mind, though not clearly stated. The cowboy needs to pay back every Saturday or so. This is how the credit is built.

Charge card is not a debit card. From the very beginning, it is understood that the customer has the total buying power for all the charges. And the customer is expected to pay back when the payment is due. The customer does not pay when the payment is not due. Making a series of small payments will only diminish your trade line. You do not build credit this way.

Charge card is also not a credit card. With credit card, the lender considers you are trust worthy to pay back the debt in the near future. You may have some hardship over a month or two. And you may have other assets that you can generate cash quickly. The customer is allowed to carry debt from time to time.

AmEx is about the only CC bank that specializes in charge cards. Its card portfolio has the highest quality. AmEx will be happy to see cardholders who use their cards a lot and pay back before payment due date. Making series of small payments or making payments before due date won't even help to build the credit.

You cal always check your "buying power" to see how AmEx assess your "credit" on your charge card. I tried a couple of times. And it shows a $50,000 buying power on my personal Plat card. Then it times out since I tried too many times.

The charge cards are good cards if you know how to use them.

Re: Having terrible luck with Amex customer support.

wasCB14 — Wed, 07 Dec 2022 06:03:00 GMT

To some degree the charge/credit distinction is blurring, with charge cards having Pay Over Time as well as Plan It.

While I don't know at what point Amex would decline my charges, I know I can spend much more on a charge card than I can on any of my revolvers.

Re: Having terrible luck with Amex customer support.

OmarGB9 — Wed, 07 Dec 2022 06:09:33 GMT

@Cleaningitup2016 wrote:
So I yet again called Amex and asked them directly:
"Can you tell me, not just based on what you think to be correct, but by actually referencing policy, which you can double check with your superiors if need be, if making a payment has or does not have bearing on your spending power until said payment posts to your account"?
They said "spending power is not affected until the payment posts to the account".
It's a bit weird with my Capital One Business Card, making a payment instantly reduces the balance AND increases my credit limit by the payment amount.

I don't know why making a payment on my Amex charge card instantly shows a lower balance but does not instantly impact the spending power. It seems kind of disadvantageous to show a reduced balance if it's not having any bearing on spending power.

Because it's not a credit card. The concept you're talking about (and your comparison to your Capital One Business card) only applies to regular credit cards. Yes, on those, depending on lender (Cap One is one of them, and Amex is too, on their revolving cards), you can pay and get your "limit" back. But a charge card doesn't work that way. They use an internal soft limit that isn't necessarily known to you, and the way to build it up is to spend and pay off quickly, which yes, may mean paying in the middle of a billing cycle to get your balance down. Certainly paying off the previous statement balance ASAP before the due date would go a long way to help with building up that internal limit. FWIW, they do have the disclaimer that NPSL doesn't mean an unlimited spending limit, and your limit can be adjusted dynamically.

From the official Platinum Card T&Cs:

No Preset Spending Limit

No Preset Spending Limit means your spending limit is flexible. Unlike a traditional card with a set limit, the amount you can spend adapts based on factors such as your purchase, payment, and credit history.

Re: Having terrible luck with Amex customer support.

NYC_Fella — Wed, 07 Dec 2022 13:05:30 GMT

Not directly relevant to the OP, but just a different DP:

I got my Amex Platinum about 9 months ago, with NPSL and a $15K POT. I've never used the POT and I charge about $10K every month and pay it off before the due date. At one point my balance (previous month's statement plus current charges) was up to $24K and they didn't blink. So whatever algorithm Amex uses, it seems to be working for me.