topic Re: Bonvoy Brilliant Renewal (Ramble) in Credit Cards

Bonvoy Brilliant Renewal (Ramble)

MachoHombre — Sat, 25 Feb 2023 17:37:26 GMT

My AMEX Bonvoy Brilliant AF Posted today. ($650AF)

GREAT card, I'm not a fan-boy to the extent of @Aim_High but I do like the card.

*But, due to my fortuitous access (via employer and trade associations) I often have access to GREAT Marriott rates. But, I cannot use Bonvoy points for payment ..and most often stays don't earn Bonvoy night credits.

This makes Bonvoy points very low-value to +me+.

*The 85,000 free night points ...I need to figure out how to put that to use ..which means going through the portal and paying inflated retail -So, again, not tremendous value for me (appreciated, It will get used, but the value not substantial due to above mentioned rates).

*TSA -It's appreciated, but I have other cards that do that so not a lot of value either.

* $300annual dining credit. LOL, Math pencils out to about $295.74 ...it's like pre-paid no discount coupons plus the aggrevation of remembering to use the card for dining when I have better dining cards. Also, I feel like a chump that i'm being "game'd" by AMEX LOL

*The extended warranty etc ....I'm not organized enough to use when appropriate and most purchases for those types of items will go on a card with stronger rewards.

From a spreadsheet perspective, the card makes little sense to *me*. Raw numbers = negative 75bucks/year (ish)

However,

Because I'm in the Bonvoy ecosystem, ..in large part because I get killer rates...

*The Platinum level has brought nice perks multiple times. I've got some very nice upgrades at quality places and the vanity from the attention given by staff -even at the more simple properties is appreciated. Speaking of vanity, the Platinum status carries over when I stay Marriott for work ..when charges go on my employer's Corporate Card (me AU AMEX Green) so that's appreciated. (and fun when I check-in with work colleagues and *I* get the upgrade LOL).

I'll be renewing. I was hoping to get a bit of luv when I called ...trolling for a retention offer ....and they eagerly were ready to PC me to the downstream cards. LOL, got nowhere! The Bonvoy and Benvy cards don't pencil out much better and don't have platinum status. Neither (do I believe) the Chase Bonvoy offerings. Oh, and the Brilliant card itself is far from ugly.

Sorry for the ramble, but odd for me to share a card decision that wasn't based soley on math.

Re: Bonvoy Brilliant Renewal (Ramble)

Aim_High — Sat, 25 Feb 2023 23:28:33 GMT

@MachoHombre wrote:
My AMEX Bonvoy Brilliant AF Posted today. ($650AF)

GREAT card, I'm not a fan-boy to the extent of @Aim_High but I do like the card.

*But, due to my fortuitous access (via employer and trade associations) I often have access to GREAT Marriott rates. But, I cannot use Bonvoy points for payment ..and most often stays don't earn Bonvoy night credits.
This makes Bonvoy points very low-value to +me+.

*The 85,000 free night points ...I need to figure out how to put that to use ..which means going through the portal and paying inflated retail -So, again, not tremendous value for me (appreciated, It will get used, but the value not substantial due to above mentioned rates).

*TSA -It's appreciated, but I have other cards that do that so not a lot of value either.

* $300annual dining credit. LOL, Math pencils out to about $295.74 ...it's like pre-paid no discount coupons plus the aggrevation of remembering to use the card for dining when I have better dining cards. Also, I feel like a chump that i'm being "game'd" by AMEX LOL

*The extended warranty etc ....I'm not organized enough to use when appropriate and most purchases for those types of items will go on a card with stronger rewards.

From a spreadsheet perspective, the card makes little sense to *me*. Raw numbers = negative 75bucks/year (ish)

However,
Because I'm in the Bonvoy ecosystem, ..in large part because I get killer rates...
*The Platinum level has brought nice perks multiple times. I've got some very nice upgrades at quality places and the vanity from the attention given by staff -even at the more simple properties is appreciated. Speaking of vanity, the Platinum status carries over when I stay Marriott for work ..when charges go on my employer's Corporate Card (me AU AMEX Green) so that's appreciated. (and fun when I check-in with work colleagues and *I* get the upgrade LOL).

I'll be renewing. I was hoping to get a bit of luv when I called ...trolling for a retention offer ....and they eagerly were ready to PC me to the downstream cards. LOL, got nowhere! The Bonvoy and Benvy cards don't pencil out much better and don't have platinum status. Neither (do I believe) the Chase Bonvoy offerings. Oh, and the Brilliant card itself is far from ugly.

Sorry for the ramble, but odd for me to share a card decision that wasn't based soley on math.

Thanks for that tag, @MachoHombre, and thanks for that perspective on the Bonvoy Brilliant. Yes I am a "fan-boy" lol but I completely get it that some cards are better fits for some consumers than others.

Ironically, like you, I have many Marriott property stays that are direct-paid by employer and therefore don't always earn night credits or points. Part of my overall enthusiasm for the card is tempered by my feeling that it's the best overall AMEX card for me as opposed to enthusiasm for the card program itself. For me, since I have better cash back card, AMEX cash back cards are mostly lackluster. And the credits on the charge cards combined with my MR valuation and valuation of the perks like lounge access doesn't make them appeal to me very much. On the other hand, I can see great value in my Marriott cards and think consumers who frequent Hilton or Delta airlines would easily find great value in them similar to my Marriott experience.

Marriott often isn't the most affordable chain but they offer a variety of properties and price points for various travel needs and budget considerations. I'm wondering if your reference to inflated retail is a Marriott-to-Marriott comparison? My Marriott app promises the lowest available price and I've found that to be true. But I will note that third party sites will quote rates without taxes and fees as opposed to Marriott including them in the rate. I have sometimes stayed at premium 4-star and 5-star hotels for much less than retail, but that was when I blindly booked rooms for that star-level on Priceline or Hotwire with no guarantee of which exact property I would stay. Overall, I've found direct booking is competitive to what I would pay elsewhere for booking a specific room. Plus, direct booking allows me to claim the stay and points whereas third party bookings do not.

I agree with you that the $300 dining "credit" isn't of great value beyond the reimbursement of the AF, but that is similar to credits on many premium cards. I do find using the automatic $25 monthly for any dining charge to be fairly easy to do and monitor, certainly much easier than the Gold card credit for a $10 credit at a limited number of restaurants or food delivery options monthly. Overall, in comparison to other AMEX credits, the monthly dining charge is possibly the "easiest" IMO. I just dislike complex credits in general as they can become difficult to manage without losing value, but they also need to be organic spend. Restaurant spend is organic spend for me, and I believe it's more universal. GrubHub, UBER, Equinox, Walmart+, or even digital entertainment/streaming are not as universal as dining from my perspective.

Like you, I don't actually use the TSA benefit right now as I also have it on other cards. Fortunately, I don't need it for the card to still be cash flow positive IMO. For me, the $300 dining credit and the 85K free night alone will reimburse the AF, and then some.

The recent AF increase from $450 to $650 was a painful jump, even if just on paper. But I agree that the new Marriott Platinum status is very nice. I've gotten that semi-VIP treatment and real value from it, even more than from the previous Silver or Gold status I have on other cards. With your renewal, it sounds like the "not ugly card" and Platinum benefits tips the scale to justify that remaining $75 effective AF for you.

Congrats on your renewal and enjoy that card!

Re: Bonvoy Brilliant Renewal (Ramble)

phantasm — Sun, 26 Feb 2023 02:20:12 GMT

At $450 AF with the $300 Marriott credit, the card was a no brainer. I was able to use that plus the Global Entry credit, a 1hr stay in a PP lounge, and two monthly $25 food credits, not to mention the very generous SUB (IIRC 150K points after some spend). However, the switch to the monthly $25 food credit and increase to $650 AF were both enough for me to PC to the Bovoy with the $95 AF. As long as I use the 35K cert, I'll come out ahead. One challenge with Marriott system is the point devaluation. I've seen many hotels with 85K point redemption but cost $120/night otherwise. That and every Tom, **bleep**, and Harry has Platinum+ status. My guess is Marriott will pull another fast one and just create some uber new tier and devalue the other tiers.

Re: Bonvoy Brilliant Renewal (Ramble)

Aim_High — Sun, 26 Feb 2023 22:58:16 GMT

@phantasm wrote:
At $450 AF with the $300 Marriott credit, the card was a no brainer. I was able to use that plus the Global Entry credit, a 1hr stay in a PP lounge, and two monthly $25 food credits, not to mention the very generous SUB (IIRC 150K points after some spend). However, the switch to the monthly $25 food credit and increase to $650 AF were both enough for me to PC to the Bovoy with the $95 AF. As long as I use the 35K cert, I'll come out ahead. One challenge with Marriott system is the point devaluation. I've seen many hotels with 85K point redemption but cost $120/night otherwise. That and every Tom, **bleep**, and Harry has Platinum+ status. My guess is Marriott will pull another fast one and just create some uber new tier and devalue the other tiers.

Always good to hear other perspectives.

I think part of the challenge with using points is finding good valuations for redemption, but otherwise holding onto them if possible. In my case, I was able to use my 85K points for a big city room that normally goes for $600 to $800 a night. And I've noticed that as demand for rooms fluctuate, points value does as well. I would guess that $120 a night room was under increased demand for some reason. My big city hotel room was expensive more for location that the quality of the room or amenities. I mean, it was nice, but not $800 nice, IMO. It was just a vanilla Marriott and not one of their higher-tier brands.

As for the deflation of elite status, I understand those complaints from members whose travel naturally allows them to reach the highest levels. I personally think Marriott has achieved a nice balance.

With Hilton, the AMEX Aspire card allows you to directly buy access to their highest Diamond status with the AMEX Aspire card. I agree it shouldn't be that easy to just buy status. (Member-Silver-Gold-Diamond.)
With Hyatt, the Chase World of Hyatt card gives you Discoverist status (one above basic member) for the $95 AF and with the opportunity to add qualifying nights albeit with a LOT of spend. (2 nights per $5K means $50K spend to reach Explorist and then another $75K to reach Globalist. And then, you still can't reach Lifetime Globalist based on nights: you must have accrued 1Million base points. (Member-Discoverist-Explorist-Globalist-Lifetime Globalist.)
IHG allows immediate access to 2nd-to-the-top Platinum status when you add the Chase Rewards Premier card ($99 AF). And upgrade to top-tier Diamond status is available for a relatively modest $40K annual spend. (Member-Silver-Gold-Platinum-Diamond.)
Marriott is in the middle with more tiers, ability to buy into the lower levels similar to Hyatt with a $95 or $250 AF card (Silver or Gold); ability to buy into mid-tier Platinum status with a higher AF card (Brilliant: $650); and somewhat of a shortcut to Titanium with the 25 night credits (40 if you add the business card's night credits.) However, you still end up with only 40 nights and Titanium requires 75, so 35 annual paid night stays are still required. And then, to reach Ambassador Elite requires both 100 nights credit PLUS $23K annual spend. To reach the highest "Lifetime" Marriott status (Lifetime Platinum Elite) also requires 600 nights and 10+ years as Platinum Elite or higher. So IMO, there's no need for Marriott to add additional uber-elite tiers; they are already there and much better protected than Hilton or IHG, yet a little more accessible than Hyatt without actual hotel night stays. (Member-Silver-Gold-Platinum-Titanium-Ambassador Elite. And Lifetime Silver-Gold-Platinum options with 250/400/600 nights.)

I believe the hotel chains struggle to balance between rewarding their most-frequent road warrior travelers while also not ignoring those travelers whose travel needs aren't as high in order to build loyalty and revenues. Making elite status too easy does cheapen the status. But making it too difficult discourages the opportunity to build more brand loyalty since many travelers won't even join if the opportunity to advance is daunting. Just not worth the effort. As I've mentioned before, I stay on average at least 8 nights a month in hotels for business travel but I can't claim the night-stay credits due to the way the reservations are made by my employer. I also have no choice in where I stay although Marriot brands are frequent destinations. For my non-room spend in hotel such as dining, I'm earning Bonvoy points. Because of credit cards like the Bonvoy Brilliant, I chose to preference Marriott for my personal travel and the ability to buy partial status. If that wasn't available, I know that in my case I'd not be Marriott loyal. I'd be searching for the best rates available on third-party travel websites.

Re: Bonvoy Brilliant Renewal (Ramble)

MachoHombre — Tue, 28 Feb 2023 22:18:29 GMT

@Aim_High wrote:
Thanks for that tag, @MachoHombre, and thanks for that perspective on the Bonvoy Brilliant. Yes I am a "fan-boy" lol but I completely get it that some cards are better fits for some consumers than others. [snip]

Yep on all, you see more value on the points than I do but you're likely more organized.

I also agree, that while it's still a game of sorts, this card makes more sense and is easier to manage than the Gold and certainly the Platinum. In fact, truth is either of us could sock drawer this card, take the dining credits via monthly food app reload and be happy with the free night and perks. In fact, I bet if you did the math, you'd be ahead swiping a solid cash-back card at your marriott stays instead of the Brillaint. The value in the Brilliant is really the perks.

Re: Bonvoy Brilliant Renewal (Ramble)

MachoHombre — Tue, 28 Feb 2023 22:38:27 GMT

@phantasm wrote:
At $450 AF with the $300 Marriott credit, the card was a no brainer. I was able to use that plus the Global Entry credit, a 1hr stay in a PP lounge, and two monthly $25 food credits, not to mention the very generous SUB (IIRC 150K points after some spend). However, the switch to the monthly $25 food credit and increase to $650 AF were both enough for me to PC to the Bovoy with the $95 AF. As long as I use the 35K cert, I'll come out ahead. One challenge with Marriott system is the point devaluation. I've seen many hotels with 85K point redemption but cost $120/night otherwise. That and every Tom, **bleep**, and Harry has Platinum+ status. My guess is Marriott will pull another fast one and just create some uber new tier and devalue the other tiers.

Well, you can call me Tom, *Bleep* or Harry! I've read a lot about the status being watered down and I'm sure it has, however *MY* experience with Platinum has been very worthwhile. Numerous solid upgrades and consistent little things. I didnt feel any value when I was at Gold level. The perks good value to me.

We agree on Bonvoy points, they are a terrible investment and continue to get devalued. Just lately I'm seeing all kinds of promos for extra points ....which in effect is like printing points and it devalues them.

I also don't see much value in the 85K reward nights (For Brilliant), as they must be redeemed on the portal where the rates get inflated.

Case in point: For fun I just looked at a typical mid-level Marriott (JW Marriott) at a typical destination with an abundance of Marriott properties (San francisco) One night April 15 (yes, taxes my mind)

Via portal paying cash, room = $221 (BTW aprox same rate found on Google or 3rd party sites)

That same room using points = 55,000 Points.

Yes, just one data-point and I realize smart people with time on their hands can find better value with Bonvoy points. But the above example is relatively common. This example puts Bonvoy points at 4/10s of a penny each ...less than half a cent each.

Meaning the free night bonus of 85,000 points worth in the ballpark of $340 dollars. that is actually more than the napkin math I used when doing a rough ROI for the card. Even with the kicker that Platinum gives you for Swipes at Bonvoy Properties, I'm confident I'd be nickels ahead if I swiped another travel card for my stays.

We agree on most, but so far I've got nice perk value out of the Platinum status. Ditto for my friends Tom and Harry :-)

Re: Bonvoy Brilliant Renewal (Ramble)

tussking — Tue, 28 Feb 2023 23:14:45 GMT

Macho...

The opposite can be stated too...I just went to Dallas and stayed in an Element property. It was $248 all in a night, and I was offered 62,000 points for the entire stay (5 nights). $1240 cash or $496 worth of points. I love my Bonvoy card. If you utilize all of the perks, even $650 is covered.

Re: Bonvoy Brilliant Renewal (Ramble)

MachoHombre — Tue, 28 Feb 2023 23:23:20 GMT

@tussking wrote:
Macho...

The opposite can be stated too...I just went to Dallas and stayed in an Element property. It was $248 all in a night, and I was offered 62,000 points for the entire stay (5 nights). $1240 cash or $496 worth of points. I love my Bonvoy card. If you utilize all of the perks, even $650 is covered.

Beautiful @tussking. I need to learn how to identify such opportunities. Thanks!

Re: Bonvoy Brilliant Renewal (Ramble)

K-in-Boston — Tue, 28 Feb 2023 23:35:36 GMT

"Richard" doesn't seem to be able to be tagged in this thread, but speaking for him, yes the points values can be all over the place. Being able to be selective about when to use points and when to pay is a luxury that will help to get the most value.

Re: Bonvoy Brilliant Renewal (Ramble)

MachoHombre — Wed, 01 Mar 2023 00:23:54 GMT

@K-in-Boston wrote:
"Richard" doesn't seem to be able to be tagged in this thread, but speaking for him, yes the points values can be all over the place. Being able to be selective about when to use points and when to pay is a luxury that will help to get the most value.

Thanks for representing Richard.

*I need to skewl myself on how to get value (beyond say half a penny each) from Bonvoy points. All suggestions or pointers appreciated. Thanks @K-in-Boston and @tussking for the widsdom.

Re: Bonvoy Brilliant Renewal (Ramble)

phantasm — Thu, 02 Mar 2023 03:16:57 GMT

@Aim_High wrote:
Always good to hear other perspectives.

I think part of the challenge with using points is finding good valuations for redemption, but otherwise holding onto them if possible. In my case, I was able to use my 85K points for a big city room that normally goes for $600 to $800 a night. And I've noticed that as demand for rooms fluctuate, points value does as well. I would guess that $120 a night room was under increased demand for some reason. My big city hotel room was expensive more for location that the quality of the room or amenities. I mean, it was nice, but not $800 nice, IMO. It was just a vanilla Marriott and not one of their higher-tier brands.

As for the deflation of elite status, I understand those complaints from members whose travel naturally allows them to reach the highest levels. I personally think Marriott has achieved a nice balance.
With Hilton, the AMEX Aspire card allows you to directly buy access to their highest Diamond status with the AMEX Aspire card. I agree it shouldn't be that easy to just buy status. (Member-Silver-Gold-Diamond.)
With Hyatt, the Chase World of Hyatt card gives you Discoverist status (one above basic member) for the $95 AF and with the opportunity to add qualifying nights albeit with a LOT of spend. (2 nights per $5K means $50K spend to reach Explorist and then another $75K to reach Globalist. And then, you still can't reach Lifetime Globalist based on nights: you must have accrued 1Million base points. (Member-Discoverist-Explorist-Globalist-Lifetime Globalist.)
IHG allows immediate access to 2nd-to-the-top Platinum status when you add the Chase Rewards Premier card ($99 AF). And upgrade to top-tier Diamond status is available for a relatively modest $40K annual spend. (Member-Silver-Gold-Platinum-Diamond.)
Marriott is in the middle with more tiers, ability to buy into the lower levels similar to Hyatt with a $95 or $250 AF card (Silver or Gold); ability to buy into mid-tier Platinum status with a higher AF card (Brilliant: $650); and somewhat of a shortcut to Titanium with the 25 night credits (40 if you add the business card's night credits.) However, you still end up with only 40 nights and Titanium requires 75, so 35 annual paid night stays are still required. And then, to reach Ambassador Elite requires both 100 nights credit PLUS $23K annual spend. To reach the highest "Lifetime" Marriott status (Lifetime Platinum Elite) also requires 600 nights and 10+ years as Platinum Elite or higher. So IMO, there's no need for Marriott to add additional uber-elite tiers; they are already there and much better protected than Hilton or IHG, yet a little more accessible than Hyatt without actual hotel night stays. (Member-Silver-Gold-Platinum-Titanium-Ambassador Elite. And Lifetime Silver-Gold-Platinum options with 250/400/600 nights.)
I believe the hotel chains struggle to balance between rewarding their most-frequent road warrior travelers while also not ignoring those travelers whose travel needs aren't as high in order to build loyalty and revenues. Making elite status too easy does cheapen the status. But making it too difficult discourages the opportunity to build more brand loyalty since many travelers won't even join if the opportunity to advance is daunting. Just not worth the effort. As I've mentioned before, I stay on average at least 8 nights a month in hotels for business travel but I can't claim the night-stay credits due to the way the reservations are made by my employer. I also have no choice in where I stay although Marriot brands are frequent destinations. For my non-room spend in hotel such as dining, I'm earning Bonvoy points. Because of credit cards like the Bonvoy Brilliant, I chose to preference Marriott for my personal travel and the ability to buy partial status. If that wasn't available, I know that in my case I'd not be Marriott loyal. I'd be searching for the best rates available on third-party travel websites.

I think part of it is that I'm a bit salty after having spent a significant amount of money over 10 years to achieve what is now Lifetime Titanium Elite status (unadvertised), Marriott has lowered the bar with the large amount of bonus nights towards elite status. From a status perspective, other than the occasional lounge access at the hotels I use, I've found room upgrades to be few and far between. So many of the Marriott branded hotels are franchise owned and can pick and choose which rules they want to follow, regardless of corporate agreements. I once had a Residence Inn claim they were a resort, even though Marriott corporate disagreed and therefore wouldn't give us a late checkout, even by one hour. I was on the phone with Corporate for hours during our family dinner and they were arguing with the hotel to no avail. We needed the late checkout due to food allergy needs of storing very specific food in the refrigerator and freezer.

I do agree that if you are looking for status and you are able to extract value out of it, that the the BB definitely helps. If you can get even one room upgrade in a year, it could be worth $80+. The lounge access can save on meals $30-$50, and the bonus points also add value. That plus the 85K certificate, even in the worst of circumstances, will have a $120+ value. If you are spending a lot of time in Marriott owned hotels, I could understand how, even at $650 it could be worth it. If you are staying at Marriott franchise hotels, which is normally where I stay, it starts to lose some appeal, IMHO.