topic Re: Chase Sapphire Reserve vs. Chase Sapphire Preferred - worth the extra $$$? in Credit Cards

Chase Sapphire Reserve vs. Chase Sapphire Preferred - worth the extra $$$?

JasonMath — Fri, 04 Aug 2023 04:02:28 GMT

My name is Jason, and I am a male in my 30s living alone in the Chicago area. Like many people, I am looking to get into the world of travel cards. I recently travelled on a solo 2.5 week vacation to England, spending around $4,000 on airfare (business class), $3,500 on hotels, $1,200 on restaurants and $400 on other travel (i.e. trains & buses), along with a few other things for a trip total of $9,000 - $10,000. I really enjoyed the trip, and I plan on doing trips like this once per year for a long period of time. I am already planning on going on similar yearly 2-2.5 week trips to southwest England, Scotland, Ireland, the Netherlands, and the Northeastern US cities (Boston/New York/Philadelphia).

In addition, I typically take 1-2 domestic leisure flights with family per year, typically flying in economy (or economy plus) and travelling for 3-7 days. Those trips typically cost around $1200-$2000, with airfare around $500-$600. Therefore, I am looking at a travel budget of $10,000 - $14,000 on a yearly basis.

Outside of the trips, I don't spend very much money, especially for material goods. My main expenses on my credit cards are groceries (~$200/month), restaurants (~$200/month), ride-hails on Lyft (~$50/month), and sporting events (~$125/month).

While my income isn't very high (~$80,000 - $90,000/year pre-tax), I have no car, children, rent, or mortgage, as my condo is completely paid off. I have no major expenses (i.e. children, car, second home) planned, so I can easily afford to splurge on the vacations. I do like travelling on business/first class on long-haul flights, as it enables me to relax in the lounge (and plane) and get some sleep.

I currently have a Costco Anywhere Visa Citibank card (credit limit $16,000) and a Fifth Third Bank Mastercard (credit limit $7,700), both of which I pay in full every month. Credit score is also great - my Transunion/Experian/Equifax is 807/803/807 respectively.

Due to my plans for future travel, I was looking at getting a travel card to get bonuses on airline miles, and earn credit for free trips faster. The Chase Sapphire brand appealed to me more than Capital One Venture, as Chase gives bonuses for Lyft and train tickets, while Capitol One does neither. I want to visit destinations that are walkable and transit-friendly so that I don't have to rent a car, so bonuses on car rentals are irrelevant to me.

Based on my situation, would you recommend the Chase Sapphire Preferred, the Chase Sapphire Reserve, or a different card altogether? I am new to the world of travel cards, but the $550 annual fee ($250 effective fee after the $300 hotel credit) for the Sapphire Reserve is no issue for me. Before you decide, here are some pointers:

1. As mentioned before, I typically fly business-class on my (soon to be) yearly long-haul vacation, which gives me lounge access. I would value the Priority Pass as roughly $25-$50, as I would only use it my 1-2 economy flights/year for departures.

2. I estimate that my current airfare spend/year would be around $3,500 - $6,000. With the extra 5x on Sapphire Reserve, I would earn at least $300/year (based on a $4,000 airfare spend at $0.015/point at 10x) vs. Sapphire Preferred.

3. Lyft is a nice part of my transportation mix, as I use it around 3 times per month (around $50) as a supplement to my public transit pass (which is paid using employer transit benefits). My Mastercard gives me a $5 reward after taking 3 Lyft rides in a month, which automatically resets at the beginning of the next month. With the current rewards system (10x for Sapphire, 5x for Preferred) and $0.015/point, I would get an extra $45 with the Reserve vs. the Preferred. The Lyft Pink membership would be a nice bonus as well.

4. One of my relatives has a Chase Sapphire Preferred, and I understand that the referral would earn my relative bonus points. Would the referral also earn me bonus points? If so, would that be valid for the Chase Sapphire Reserve, or just the Chase Sapphire Preferred?

5. Should I apply for the card online or at my local Chase Bank branch? Are there extra bonuses for applying in person?

6. Finally, my credit reports are currently frozen due to issues with identity theft several years ago. How long does it take to unfreeze them, and when should I apply for the card?

For me personally, I am leaning toward the Chase Sapphire Preferred due to the recommendations for first-timers to apply for a sub-$100 annual fee credit card, and the credit requirements are lower for the Preferred vs. the Reserve. In addition, the sign-up bonus is the same amount of points for the Preferred and the Reserve. However, with my travel habits and a yearly long-haul business-class round-trip, the Chase Sapphire Reserve might be a better value.

I look forward to your responses!

Re: Chase Sapphire Reserve vs. Chase Sapphire Preferred - worth the extra $$$?

Anonymous — Fri, 04 Aug 2023 04:46:09 GMT

A few answers to minor points:

Finally, my credit reports are currently frozen due to issues with identity theft several years ago. How long does it take to unfreeze them, and when should I apply for the card?

If it's normal freezing, this can be almost instantenously on line (verbiage says something like may take up to 24 hours but it doesn't). This assumes you have the online accounts at the bureaus

Re card: While I think CSP/CSR are probably the right choices, the question is whether you (will) always, or nearly always, fly a particular airline. In some circumstances, getting an airline card for that carrier can have advantages (although some of the common ones, like no baggage fees, matter less to you with mainly flying business and no kids!)

CSP for a year and then CSR if it makes sense is a common strategy, especially when CSP has a higher sign up bonus. But if they are the same, and you have done the calculations, and are reasonably sure that they won't change (apart from things like COVID-24) then going straight to CSR is fine. Just make sure that the added rewards, plus things like the much better insurance, justifies the additional fee.

Re: Chase Sapphire Reserve vs. Chase Sapphire Preferred - worth the extra $$$?

Beefy1212 — Fri, 04 Aug 2023 10:20:08 GMT

LTL gave you a great answer, I would further add you likely want to pair either card with the freedom flex and eventually freedom unlimited (largely for the 5% subs and the 200/500 subs)

At an expected spend of over 10k and international travel to boot, the lounge access TSA pre-check and other advantages I think it is a no brainer going for CSR you are going to get the extra 450 in fees back.

However when looking at the CSR/CSP also look at how you earn points CSP has more ways to earn points outside travel, and that is why I suggest the CFF all those 3-5% bonuses not listed on CSR are actually points, points you can transfer to that CSR. My understanding from what has been said here and other places is that 10x bonus on travel is moot the chase travel portal is rarely a good enough deal that you are not better off booking for less and and earning the 3x rate and that means the card is a 3x on travel earner and 1x everything else that is a tough way to earn your way to a "free" vacation. A travel card by itself rarely earns enough points on it's own for the the points to work out in your favor. One exception to this is the USB Altitude Reserve 3x points on all mobile wallet purchases 4.5% when redeemed through the travel portal and enough credits to make it essentially no annually fee is a strong choice. In the end do not look at just the card perks, but how you will earn points to make use of the card, that is what makes the Chase "Tri-Fecta" and amex plat/gold often better than other travel cards.

Re: Chase Sapphire Reserve vs. Chase Sapphire Preferred - worth the extra $$$?

SouthJamaica — Fri, 04 Aug 2023 12:25:52 GMT

@JasonMath wrote:
My name is Jason, and I am a male in my 30s living alone in the Chicago area. Like many people, I am looking to get into the world of travel cards. I recently travelled on a solo 2.5 week vacation to England, spending around $4,000 on airfare (business class), $3,500 on hotels, $1,200 on restaurants and $400 on other travel (i.e. trains & buses), along with a few other things for a trip total of $9,000 - $10,000. I really enjoyed the trip, and I plan on doing trips like this once per year for a long period of time. I am already planning on going on similar yearly 2-2.5 week trips to southwest England, Scotland, Ireland, the Netherlands, and the Northeastern US cities (Boston/New York/Philadelphia).

In addition, I typically take 1-2 domestic leisure flights with family per year, typically flying in economy (or economy plus) and travelling for 3-7 days. Those trips typically cost around $1200-$2000, with airfare around $500-$600. Therefore, I am looking at a travel budget of $10,000 - $14,000 on a yearly basis.

Outside of the trips, I don't spend very much money, especially for material goods. My main expenses on my credit cards are groceries (~$200/month), restaurants (~$200/month), ride-hails on Lyft (~$50/month), and sporting events (~$125/month).

While my income isn't very high (~$80,000 - $90,000/year pre-tax), I have no car, children, rent, or mortgage, as my condo is completely paid off. I have no major expenses (i.e. children, car, second home) planned, so I can easily afford to splurge on the vacations. I do like travelling on business/first class on long-haul flights, as it enables me to relax in the lounge (and plane) and get some sleep.

I currently have a Costco Anywhere Visa Citibank card (credit limit $16,000) and a Fifth Third Bank Mastercard (credit limit $7,700), both of which I pay in full every month. Credit score is also great - my Transunion/Experian/Equifax is 807/803/807 respectively.

Due to my plans for future travel, I was looking at getting a travel card to get bonuses on airline miles, and earn credit for free trips faster. The Chase Sapphire brand appealed to me more than Capital One Venture, as Chase gives bonuses for Lyft and train tickets, while Capitol One does neither. I want to visit destinations that are walkable and transit-friendly so that I don't have to rent a car, so bonuses on car rentals are irrelevant to me.

Based on my situation, would you recommend the Chase Sapphire Preferred, the Chase Sapphire Reserve, or a different card altogether? I am new to the world of travel cards, but the $550 annual fee ($250 effective fee after the $300 hotel credit) for the Sapphire Reserve is no issue for me. Before you decide, here are some pointers:

1. As mentioned before, I typically fly business-class on my (soon to be) yearly long-haul vacation, which gives me lounge access. I would value the Priority Pass as roughly $25-$50, as I would only use it my 1-2 economy flights/year for departures.
2. I estimate that my current airfare spend/year would be around $3,500 - $6,000. With the extra 5x on Sapphire Reserve, I would earn at least $300/year (based on a $4,000 airfare spend at $0.015/point at 10x) vs. Sapphire Preferred.
3. Lyft is a nice part of my transportation mix, as I use it around 3 times per month (around $50) as a supplement to my public transit pass (which is paid using employer transit benefits). My Mastercard gives me a $5 reward after taking 3 Lyft rides in a month, which automatically resets at the beginning of the next month. With the current rewards system (10x for Sapphire, 5x for Preferred) and $0.015/point, I would get an extra $45 with the Reserve vs. the Preferred. The Lyft Pink membership would be a nice bonus as well.
4. One of my relatives has a Chase Sapphire Preferred, and I understand that the referral would earn my relative bonus points. Would the referral also earn me bonus points? If so, would that be valid for the Chase Sapphire Reserve, or just the Chase Sapphire Preferred?
5. Should I apply for the card online or at my local Chase Bank branch? Are there extra bonuses for applying in person?
6. Finally, my credit reports are currently frozen due to issues with identity theft several years ago. How long does it take to unfreeze them, and when should I apply for the card?

For me personally, I am leaning toward the Chase Sapphire Preferred due to the recommendations for first-timers to apply for a sub-$100 annual fee credit card, and the credit requirements are lower for the Preferred vs. the Reserve. In addition, the sign-up bonus is the same amount of points for the Preferred and the Reserve. However, with my travel habits and a yearly long-haul business-class round-trip, the Chase Sapphire Reserve might be a better value.

I look forward to your responses!

I'm not one of the forum's travel aficionados, but I'm pretty sure you'll get more bang for your buck with the Chase Sapphire Reserve. I don't think the underwriting is different, but even if it is, your profile is more than good enough for either card. Yes it pays to stop in at a branch if you can, as many forum members have reported getting higher signup bonuses that way.

For me, it takes around a minute to unfreeze my credit reports.

Re: Chase Sapphire Reserve vs. Chase Sapphire Preferred - worth the extra $$$?

iced — Fri, 04 Aug 2023 14:34:35 GMT

@JasonMath wrote:
My name is Jason, and I am a male in my 30s living alone in the Chicago area. Like many people, I am looking to get into the world of travel cards. I recently travelled on a solo 2.5 week vacation to England, spending around $4,000 on airfare (business class), $3,500 on hotels, $1,200 on restaurants and $400 on other travel (i.e. trains & buses), along with a few other things for a trip total of $9,000 - $10,000. I really enjoyed the trip, and I plan on doing trips like this once per year for a long period of time. I am already planning on going on similar yearly 2-2.5 week trips to southwest England, Scotland, Ireland, the Netherlands, and the Northeastern US cities (Boston/New York/Philadelphia).

In addition, I typically take 1-2 domestic leisure flights with family per year, typically flying in economy (or economy plus) and travelling for 3-7 days. Those trips typically cost around $1200-$2000, with airfare around $500-$600. Therefore, I am looking at a travel budget of $10,000 - $14,000 on a yearly basis.

Outside of the trips, I don't spend very much money, especially for material goods. My main expenses on my credit cards are groceries (~$200/month), restaurants (~$200/month), ride-hails on Lyft (~$50/month), and sporting events (~$125/month).

While my income isn't very high (~$80,000 - $90,000/year pre-tax), I have no car, children, rent, or mortgage, as my condo is completely paid off. I have no major expenses (i.e. children, car, second home) planned, so I can easily afford to splurge on the vacations. I do like travelling on business/first class on long-haul flights, as it enables me to relax in the lounge (and plane) and get some sleep.

I currently have a Costco Anywhere Visa Citibank card (credit limit $16,000) and a Fifth Third Bank Mastercard (credit limit $7,700), both of which I pay in full every month. Credit score is also great - my Transunion/Experian/Equifax is 807/803/807 respectively.

Due to my plans for future travel, I was looking at getting a travel card to get bonuses on airline miles, and earn credit for free trips faster. The Chase Sapphire brand appealed to me more than Capital One Venture, as Chase gives bonuses for Lyft and train tickets, while Capitol One does neither. I want to visit destinations that are walkable and transit-friendly so that I don't have to rent a car, so bonuses on car rentals are irrelevant to me.

Based on my situation, would you recommend the Chase Sapphire Preferred, the Chase Sapphire Reserve, or a different card altogether? I am new to the world of travel cards, but the $550 annual fee ($250 effective fee after the $300 hotel credit) for the Sapphire Reserve is no issue for me. Before you decide, here are some pointers:

1. As mentioned before, I typically fly business-class on my (soon to be) yearly long-haul vacation, which gives me lounge access. I would value the Priority Pass as roughly $25-$50, as I would only use it my 1-2 economy flights/year for departures.
2. I estimate that my current airfare spend/year would be around $3,500 - $6,000. With the extra 5x on Sapphire Reserve, I would earn at least $300/year (based on a $4,000 airfare spend at $0.015/point at 10x) vs. Sapphire Preferred.
3. Lyft is a nice part of my transportation mix, as I use it around 3 times per month (around $50) as a supplement to my public transit pass (which is paid using employer transit benefits). My Mastercard gives me a $5 reward after taking 3 Lyft rides in a month, which automatically resets at the beginning of the next month. With the current rewards system (10x for Sapphire, 5x for Preferred) and $0.015/point, I would get an extra $45 with the Reserve vs. the Preferred. The Lyft Pink membership would be a nice bonus as well.
4. One of my relatives has a Chase Sapphire Preferred, and I understand that the referral would earn my relative bonus points. Would the referral also earn me bonus points? If so, would that be valid for the Chase Sapphire Reserve, or just the Chase Sapphire Preferred?
5. Should I apply for the card online or at my local Chase Bank branch? Are there extra bonuses for applying in person?
6. Finally, my credit reports are currently frozen due to issues with identity theft several years ago. How long does it take to unfreeze them, and when should I apply for the card?

For me personally, I am leaning toward the Chase Sapphire Preferred due to the recommendations for first-timers to apply for a sub-$100 annual fee credit card, and the credit requirements are lower for the Preferred vs. the Reserve. In addition, the sign-up bonus is the same amount of points for the Preferred and the Reserve. However, with my travel habits and a yearly long-haul business-class round-trip, the Chase Sapphire Reserve might be a better value.

I look forward to your responses!

You'll get much more out of the CSR than the CSP with your travel patterns. You also have the $300 travel credit which offsets a decent chunk of the AF; throw in GE every 5 years and the other assorted credits (DoorDash being another) and the CSR pulls away quickly for people who spend more than a few thousand per month in dining/travel.

If it were me I'd just save the hassle and go right to the CSR...and that's exactly what I did when it came out years ago.

Re: Chase Sapphire Reserve vs. Chase Sapphire Preferred - worth the extra $$$?

Aim_High — Sat, 05 Aug 2023 00:00:20 GMT

Hi Jason - @JasonMath and welcome to My FICO Forums!

That was a great first post and question filled with lots of pertinent information and data points. Based on all that you've laid out, I have to agree that the Chase Sapphire Reserve is probably an excellent fit for you. The caveat would be that you don't care about building airline or hotel loyalty status with your travel spend. A card like the CSR or CSP works well for the flexibility of UR points when booking travel, but you lose out on loyalty status when booking through third-party websites. If loyalty status is also important, please reply with your preferences and we can continue that discussion.

I especially appreciate the industry-leading travel insurances and protections on the Chase Sapphire Reserve. The $300 automatic travel credit works seemlessly for me and sounds like you'd easily meet that to lower the effective AF to $250. With Global Entry credit and other credit/perks, I think the CSR is worth the higher AF. At some points in the past, the SUB has oddly been a little higher on the CSP but right now it's worth 60K UR on either card for $4K spend. So I agree that going straight to CSR is probably the best strategy. If you decide the AF is a little too rich for your budget or you're not getting sufficient value, a downgrade to CSP is always an option.

Your relative's referral should reward him for the referral and still give you the ability to earn the standard SUB. If it doesn't, I'd apply directly. Likewise, there have been reports sometimes of higher SUBs being offered in-branch to existing deposit customers. Before applying, it never hurts to check there with a banker.

As for the bi-fecta, tri-fecta, quad-fecta of Chase cards, there are various opinions and strategies. Part of the answer depends on your spending patterns and also on how complex or simple of a wallet line-up you prefer. There are multiple combinations of cards that earn URs which can be pooled together for synergy onto CSR/CSP. Those are what I would consider the "core cards" of the -fecta since they are the lever of UR points into enhanced value in-portal or for transfer to travel partners. The other cards would be the Freedoms (Flex or Unlimited) and the INKs (Cash, Unlimited, Premier, Preferred.) At one point, I had the Freedom Unlimited, original Freedom with 5x UR on rotating categories, and INK Cash which gives me 5x points on selected categories such as office supplies, cellphone, and home television/internet service. I found that the rotating category cards sound good on paper for me, but in retrospect I wasn't getting the expected value of the enhanced rewards for several reasons. Some quarters I might not have heavy needs in that category, tracking quarters and spending limits requires enhanced awareness of which card to use, MCCs might not code correctly for the added-value among other factors. So I decided the best -fecta for me (to carry) was just a CSR + CFU which allows an extra 0.5 URs per dollar on uncategorized spend. (That's worth 1.5% in cash but between 2.25% and 3% in travel.) I keep my INK Cash working in the sock drawer for cell phone and tv/internet or for trips to office supply store.

Re: Chase Sapphire Reserve vs. Chase Sapphire Preferred - worth the extra $$$?

SpaceCityCCuser — Sat, 05 Aug 2023 03:05:15 GMT

Welcome Jason! I have the CSP and it is worth having especially if you pair it with the CFF. There is currently a nice SUB to a link Freedom Flex with 5x in Gas & Grocery up to 12k spend for 1 year (may require incognito mode) for the CFF and it would earn you quite a great bonus. I would sign up for the CFF and wait about 2-3 months then get the CSP. You fly business class already so, as you know, you get lounge access. Then after you hit the bonus on CSP, get the Venture X. I know this seeems like you are going down the rabbit hole of credit card mania but this is a cheaper setup than only the CSR. And, you get points in 2 different systems which I have found to be very valuable. I use the UR points at Hyatt and the Venture Miles on airfair (Turkish for domestic, Lifemiles/AirCanada for StarAlliance and others). The Venture X gets you the Priority Pass as well, without the restaurant perk, but still it is a Priority Pass. Plus, Venture X gets you Plaza Premium and CapitalOne Lounges access. I think this is a longer road but a better long term strategy.

Re: Chase Sapphire Reserve vs. Chase Sapphire Preferred - worth the extra $$$?

SpaceCityCCuser — Sat, 05 Aug 2023 03:25:39 GMT

Here is an image of my search I did using chrome browser on my iphone. Try any browser options you can think of.

Re: Chase Sapphire Reserve vs. Chase Sapphire Preferred - worth the extra $$$?

JasonMath — Sat, 05 Aug 2023 04:26:34 GMT

Thank you for all the replies! I was a bit wrong with my calculations - here is the comparison with the CSR and CSP, factoring in the 0.1% anniversary bonus on the CSP:

Hotels through the CS Portal: ($2000 - $4000, 10x CSR vs. 5.1x CSP, $0.015/point): $147 - $294

vs.

Hotels booked directly: ($2000 - $4000, 3x CSR vs. 2.1x CSP, $0.015/point): $27 - $54

Flights though the CS Portal: no difference

vs.

Flights booked directly: ($3500 - $5600, 3x CSR vs. 2.1x CSP, $0.015/point): $47.25 - $75.60

Dining: ($2800 - $3400, 3x CSR vs. 3.1x CSP, $0.015/point): -4.2/-5.1

Lyft rides ($600/year, 15% discount via Lyft Pink, 10x CSR vs. 5.1x CSP; $5 discount on current Mastercard after 3 rides/month): $74.10 - $134.10

Priority Pass @ $25/visit, 1-2 round trip flights (non-drinker) - $25 - $100

Global entry - already purchased

Based on the calculations, I could save $121 - $599.50 with the CS Reserve vs. the CS Preferred. I would get the most savings by booking hotels through Chase (if the price is the same), as well as through the Lyft Pink membership. There are only a few caveats to calculations:

1. Cost to book travel through the portal vs. booking directly

2. Ability to book train travel through the portal - the Northeast trip would cost about $1400 in Amtrak travel, with no flights being flown

If I were to get a travel card, I would look into applying within the next 1-2 weeks, as I plan on purchasing plane tickets for my next vacation by the beginning of November, and would thus spend the $4000 minimum over the next few months.

Re: Chase Sapphire Reserve vs. Chase Sapphire Preferred - worth the extra $$$?

JasonMath — Sat, 05 Aug 2023 04:38:45 GMT

@SpaceCityCCuser wrote:
Welcome Jason! I have the CSP and it is worth having especially if you pair it with the CFF. There is currently a nice SUB to a link Freedom Flex with 5x in Gas & Grocery up to 12k spend for 1 year (may require incognito mode) for the CFF and it would earn you quite a great bonus.

Would I be able to apply for the Freedom Flex now, and then apply for the Chase Sapphire Reserve or the Chase Sapphire Preferred in late October/early November, getting the sign up bonuses for both cards? That would work out, as I would probably start booking my business class flights around Halloween for my June 2024 vacation to the Netherlands.

Re: Chase Sapphire Reserve vs. Chase Sapphire Preferred - worth the extra $$$?

SpaceCityCCuser — Sat, 05 Aug 2023 12:28:47 GMT

Yes you would. You only need to worry about the Chase rules. 5/24 and 2/30 rules

2/30 Rule

The 2/30 rule says that you can only have two applications every 30 days or else you’ll automatically be rejected.

5/24 Rule

The most infamous rule is the Chase 5/24 rule. The idea is if you have more than five new credit cards in the past 24 months, from any issuer, you’ll automatically get rejected for certain Chase cards.

Re: Chase Sapphire Reserve vs. Chase Sapphire Preferred - worth the extra $$$?

Aim_High — Sun, 06 Aug 2023 13:29:53 GMT

@JasonMath wrote:

I am looking at a travel budget of $10,000 - $14,000 on a yearly basis.
Outside of the trips, I don't spend very much money, especially for material goods.
My main expenses on my credit cards are groceries (~$200/month),
restaurants (~$200/month),
ride-hails on Lyft (~$50/month), and
sporting events (~$125/month).
I have no car,
children,
rent, or mortgage, as my condo is completely paid off.
I have no major expenses
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
@JasonMath wrote:
Would I be able to apply for the Freedom Flex now, and then apply for the Chase Sapphire Reserve or the Chase Sapphire Preferred in late October/early November, getting the sign up bonuses for both cards?

Again, @JasonMath, I would highly encourage you to recalculate the incremental value in your situation of carrying the Freedom Flex before proceeding. Your case is a classic example of how some of our members may steer someone in the a direction of what works well for them without considering profile and spending variations, or variations in preferences for card complexity. And the following reasons are why I think that, if you choose to supplement a CSR/CSP card for a -fecta, you're much better off just going with a CFU instead of a CFF.

You appear to prefer a more streamlined wallet, and it doesn't appear you've ever had a rotating category card. Rotating category cards have their strengths but of course also their weaknesses. They work better for some of our members than others. (See THIS discussion.) They are often popular with our members who are willing to accept a higher degree of wallet complexity and more attention to card management in exchange for an increase in rewards potential. Determining exactly how much of a premium in rewards you would realize and whether that additional card is worth the hassle is a question you should consider in advance.
Based on the outline of your expenses above, let's look at your cash flow versus the (2022-2023 CFF categories) as well as (CFF/CF categories in earlier years.) A CSR/CSP would take care of the rewards on your highest spend categories including travel, dining, and transit. One popular recurring category on CFF is gas/EV charging (of which you have no use at all and could already get a very close 4% on your Costco card if your needs changed with no quarterly cap restrictions.) Another popular category is groceries (where your spend is only about $600 per quarter as a single-person household, which only works out to about 1/3 of the potential $1500 quarterly cap on the 5% rewards. Obviously, our members who have larger households calculate this value much differently.) Lowe's is one category, but I doubt you have high spend needs there based on your living situation. Car Rentals are listed, but you said you don't rent cars and CSR would give you better value there anyway. Streaming services, movie theatres, fitness centers, and "select" live entertainment are listed as portions of certain quarters, but how close does do you spend an average of $500 per month ($1500 per quarter) on any of these categories? My guess is that it's minor. There are some categories where spend could be higher but that varies by the consumer budget (Wal-Mart, Target, Amazon, eBay, PayPal) and remember that these are just in one or two quarters out of the four each year. In my case, I had added the original Chase Freedom (prior to CFF debut) and found that my usage wasn't adding nearly as much incremental value as I had expected while complicating my wallet.
Remember that on CFF (unlike some other category cards,) Chase selects the high rewards categories. You have no choice. And they can/do change them year-to-year.
Remember that on CFF, your spending cap to get 5% is limited to $1500 per quarter maximum. For some consumers, that may not meet all their quarterly needs. For others, they may spend far less; in that case, it may be tempting to look for ways to drive additional spending to "take advantage" of the enhanced rewards. This becomes non-organic spend being driven by the rewards program which is modifying your normal spending behavior and can be a trap that may cost you money that you wouldn't normally have spent.
Remember that how MCCs are coded determine what purchases qualify for the higher rewards. For example, on groceries, warehouse clubs like Costco and supercenters like Target-Walmart are often excluded.
Remember that you'll be activating your categories and having to think about the calendar in terms of the quarter when you go to make a purchase if you're striving for rewards optimization. In my case, I prefer to know in advance which of my cards I'll probably pull out of my wallet in any particular purchase scenario.
Would you be adding a CFU alongside the CFF+CSR/CSP? If not, you're only earning 1% cash back (worth 1.25% to 2% in travel) versus the 1.5% cash back (worth 1.875 to 3.00% for travel) if uncategorized purchases were on CFU. IMO, if someone is focused on optimizing UR point earning, the CFF (when appropriate) only makes sense when coupled with a CFU. There are a LOT of purchase categories that don't fit neatly into the rewards categories of either CSR/CSP and CFF. For the example of your grocery bill, and assuming you add a CFU, calculate the incremental value of $600 in a quarter on CFU at 1.5% versus CFF at 5%. (0.035 x $600 = $21.) You get to decide when the additional rewards are worth the hassle of carrying the card. For some, including myself, something less than $100 per year is not worth the hassle. Also, if not adding a CFU, consider the incremental LOSS of rewards on your 1% spend on CFF. It's likely to average-out to much less than 5%.

I just wanted to lay out some considerations for you that might alter your strategy. Perhaps I've misread you and your situation but it appears to me that yours is a classic case where the CFF may not be as suitable as it is for our other members. Best of luck in however you decide to proceed!

Re: Chase Sapphire Reserve vs. Chase Sapphire Preferred - worth the extra $$$?

Citylights18 — Sat, 05 Aug 2023 22:06:26 GMT

@JasonMath wrote:
@SpaceCityCCuser wrote:
Welcome Jason! I have the CSP and it is worth having especially if you pair it with the CFF. There is currently a nice SUB to a link Freedom Flex with 5x in Gas & Grocery up to 12k spend for 1 year (may require incognito mode) for the CFF and it would earn you quite a great bonus.

Would I be able to apply for the Freedom Flex now, and then apply for the Chase Sapphire Reserve or the Chase Sapphire Preferred in late October/early November, getting the sign up bonuses for both cards? That would work out, as I would probably start booking my business class flights around Halloween for my June 2024 vacation to the Netherlands.

You could do both like that so long as you can chew off the SUB. Freedom Flex is pretty easy to hit at $500 and had the grocery/gas bonus. Gas applies to convenience store purchasing not jut the pump.

If you do go the CSR route you could make out with more points with the 10x travel to juice up your point totals buying up that travel. Then when you reedem you do get a better discount against the advertised price (divide by 1.5 vs. 1.25). Then you'll easily get the 300 dollar travel credit back with all the travel spending you plan to do.

My situation is I got the CSP and then hotel cards which have elevated spend in network. Between the 3 hotel cards and CSP I have an AF of like $385 a year against paying an AF of $550 with the CSR. I'm also getting a free night per travel card and a 50 dollar credit on the CSP which I haven't used yet because with 1.26 million overall points I just scalp the points I have rather than buy travel.

Re: Chase Sapphire Reserve vs. Chase Sapphire Preferred - worth the extra $$$?

DJRobbieD — Sat, 05 Aug 2023 22:12:17 GMT

@JasonMath -- I'm with @Aim_High on this one. I think the CSR+CFU is a powerful combo to earn flexible travel rewards not tied to specific airlines or hotels. My wife and I did so during the 2010s beginning with the CSP+CFU combo, then shifting to the CSR+CFU combo once the CSR was launched in 2016. I later tried adding the CFF for the "Chase tri-fecta", but found that we didn't take full advantage of the capped 5% rotating categories such that I eventually closed/merged the CFF into my CFU. Of course, that's just my personal experience, but figured I'd share for your consideration.

Re: Chase Sapphire Reserve vs. Chase Sapphire Preferred - worth the extra $$$?

JasonMath — Sun, 06 Aug 2023 04:15:50 GMT

@Aim_High wrote:Again, @JasonMath, I would highly encourage you to recalculate the incremental value in your situation of carrying the Freedom Flex before proceeding. Your case is a classic example of how some of our members may steer someone in the a direction of what works well for them without considering profile and spending variations, or variations in preferences for card complexity. And the following reasons are why I think that, if you choose to supplement a CSR/CSP card for a -fecta, you're much better off just going with a CFU instead of a CFF.

You appear to prefer a more streamlined wallet, and it doesn't appear you've ever had a rotating category card. Rotating category cards have their strengths but of course also their weaknesses. They certainly work better for some of our members than others. (See THIS discussion.) They are often popular with our members who are willing to accept a higher degree of wallet complexity and more attention to card management in exchange for an increase in rewards potential. Determining exactly how much of a premium in rewards you would realize and whether that additional card is worth the hassle is a question you should consider in advance.
Streaming services, movie theatres, fitness centers, and "select" live entertainment are listed as portions of certain quarters, but how close does do you spend an average of $500 per month ($1500 per quarter) on any of these categories? My guess is that it's minor.
Remember that on CFF, your spending cap to get 5% is limited to $1500 per quarter maximum. For some consumers, that may not meet all their quarterly needs. For others, they may spend far less; in that case, it may be tempting to look for ways to drive additional spending to "take advantage" of the enhanced rewards. This becomes non-organic spend being driven by the rewards program which is modifying your normal spending behavior and can be a trap that costs you money that you wouldn't normally have spent.
Would you be adding a CFU alongside the CFF+CSR/CSP? If not, you're only earning 1% cash back (worth 1.25% to 2% in travel) versus the 1.5% cash back (worth 1.875 to 3.00% for travel) if uncategorized purchases were on CFU. IMO, if someone if focused on optimizing UR point earning, the CFF (when appropriate) only makes sense when coupled with a CFU. There are a LOT of purchase categories that don't fit neatly into the rewards categories of either CSR/CSP and CFF. For the example of your grocery bill, and assuming you add a CFU, calculate the incremental value of $600 in a quarter on CFU at 1.5% versus CFF at 5%. (0.035 x $600 = $21.) You get to decide when the additional rewards are worth the hassle of carrying the card. For some, including myself, something less than $100 per year is not worth the hassle. Also, if not adding a CFU, consider the incremental LOSS of rewards on your 1% spend on CFF. It's likely to average-out to much less than 5%.
I just wanted to lay out some considerations for you that might alter your strategy. Perhaps I've misread you and your situation but it appears to me that yours is a classic case where the CFF may not be as suitable as it is for our other members. Best of luck in however you decide to proceed!

I was just thinking the same thing regarding complexity. I attend about 15-20 Chicago Cubs baseball games a year, so the 5% bonus on live entertainment for July - September sounds great - in fact, I just bought a baseball ticket today! However, when factoring in the complexity of the system, not to mention that Chase might not count ticket brokers (i.e. StubHub, SeatGeek), as "live entertainment", it might not be worth the hassle. Even with an higher estimate of $450, the 3.5% effective bonus would only net me $15.75.

With my grocery spend of $200/month, that category would only net me $21 in the first quarter. Looking at the calendar, I don't use fitness clubs, Lowe's, or Target, and only use Amazon occasionally. Therefore, I would be only getting up to $40 in bonuses, and would not get the extra 0.5% cash back on the CFU. Since both the Chase Freedom Flex and Chase Freedom Unlimited have the same SUB ($200 with $500 or more in spend in the first 3 months), it seems like the Freedom Unlimited is better off as a starter card, as it's not worth it for me to track rotating categories to save around $25 ($40 - $3000 [in other expenses]*0.005).

Interestingly enough, there the referral link through NerdWallet for the Chase Freedom Unlimited advertised a SUB of 1.5% cash back on all purchases, up to $20,000. Since I would have to spend at least $13,333 on non-travel expenses to make the $200 cut [as I would put the travel expenses on the Sapphire Reserve], the offer directly through Chase with the flat $200 after at least $500 in purchases through 3 months is the much better option.

It looks like the best plan would be for me to apply for the Chase Freedom Unlimited now and start earning points and the $200 SUB, as I will not be booking any flights and travel until at least the end of October 2023. I can still get great rewards on dining and drugstores, and bank the points in the rewards portal for greater value. Since the sign-up bonus for the Sapphire Reserve increased last year to 80,000 points between October 18 - December 1, that would put me right in line to apply for the CSR, book the airline tickets, and get the bonus!

Thanks,

Jason

P.S. I was looking at purchasing tickets for a "stay and play" package for a music festival in the Netherlands for 2024 as part of my 2 - 2.5 week vacation there, which includes 4-day admission to the festival (located on the grounds of a theme park) along with accomodation either on the festival grounds or at hotels off site. (The tickets and packages for the festival go on sale in mid to late October, which is perfect timing if the CSR has a points bonus at that time.) Since this is a mixed package, would Chase classify this as theme parks/entertainment or hotels? I would probably spend at least $1000 on this package, so this could earn me some decent points. (The only note is that I would probably have to buy it through the festival website, as I doubt that Chase would offer bundled accommodations through their rewards portal.)

Re: Chase Sapphire Reserve vs. Chase Sapphire Preferred - worth the extra $$$?

Anonymous — Sun, 06 Aug 2023 04:25:36 GMT

@Aim_High wrote:
Again, @JasonMath, I would highly encourage you to recalculate the incremental value in your situation of carrying the Freedom Flex before proceeding. Your case is a classic example of how some of our members may steer someone in the a direction of what works well for them without considering profile and spending variations, or variations in preferences for card complexity. And the following reasons are why I think that, if you choose to supplement a CSR/CSP card for a -fecta, you're much better off just going with a CFU instead of a CFF.

Right. I suspect that even for most, getting a CFU makes much more sense as the second card, simply because CSR/CSP has "lots" of 1x earnings (anything outside the categories!) If you are serious about URs, having a 1.5x safety net makes sense. Then, you can decide if adding a CFF would add sufficient value vs the added wallet complexity (and we should note that for many here, that added complexity is approx 0, so even getting 100 extra UR a year would be a win!)

While I have 4 rotating cards (CF/CFF/Discover/Citi Dividend) like @Aim_High they don't excite me nearly as much as they do some here. Basically: if the rotators hit a big spend category, try to get a card that covers that year round, and if they don't, 5x not much is still not much! But if you are in to ultra-reward maximization, then fine!

Re: Chase Sapphire Reserve vs. Chase Sapphire Preferred - worth the extra $$$?

JasonMath — Mon, 07 Aug 2023 23:24:16 GMT

I decided to apply for the Chase Freedom Unlimited now, and hold off on the Chase Sapphire Reserve/Preferred until mid-October. That way, I can take advantage of the 1.5x points on everyday rewards (plus 3x on dining and 5x on Lyft) on the CFU and wait to see if the CSR has a higher SUB by mid-October. I put a temporary lift on my credit freeze for all of my reports, and went to Chase Bank in-person today to apply for the CFU. My application was placed on hold due to the credit alert, and I got a call from Chase fraud prevention as I was walking out of the bank! I talked to the person on the phone, and confirmed with her that the account application was valid. Two minutes later, I got another call saying the application was approved!

I walked back to the bank and talked with Sara (the banker who processed my application), and got the card rush-shipped. This will come in handy, as I will be dining out on Saturday evening with friends at a nice French restaurant in Chicago, and likely spending at least $100 on the meal. I was planning on dining there anyways, and the 3x on points and the bill will go a long way to the $500 minimum spend to get the $200 SUB!

Re: Chase Sapphire Reserve vs. Chase Sapphire Preferred - worth the extra $$$?

Aim_High — Mon, 07 Aug 2023 23:38:41 GMT

@JasonMath wrote:
I decided to apply for the Chase Freedom Unlimited now, and hold off on the Chase Sapphire Reserve/Preferred until mid-October. That way, I can take advantage of the 1.5x points on everyday rewards (plus 3x on dining and 5x on Lyft) on the CFU and wait to see if the CSR has a higher SUB by mid-October. I put a temporary lift on my credit freeze for all of my reports, and went to Chase Bank in-person today to apply for the CFU. My application was placed on hold due to the credit alert, and I got a call from Chase fraud prevention as I was walking out of the bank! I talked to the person on the phone, and confirmed with her that the account application was valid. Two minutes later, I got another call saying the application was approved!

I walked back to the bank and talked with Sara (the banker who processed my application), and got the card rush-shipped. This will come in handy, as I will be dining out on Saturday evening with friends at a nice French restaurant in Chicago, and likely spending at least $100 on the meal. I was planning on dining there anyways, and the 3x on points and the bill will go a long way to the $500 minimum spend to get the $200 SUB!

Congrats on your decision and approval, @JasonMath! I think you made a wise choice. Feel free to also post more details about your approval with data points in the approvals forums, as those are always a valuable part of the community!

Re: Chase Sapphire Reserve vs. Chase Sapphire Preferred - worth the extra $$$?

Beefy1212 — Tue, 08 Aug 2023 03:33:40 GMT

@JasonMath wrote:
@Aim_High wrote:Again, @JasonMath, I would highly encourage you to recalculate the incremental value in your situation of carrying the Freedom Flex before proceeding. Your case is a classic example of how some of our members may steer someone in the a direction of what works well for them without considering profile and spending variations, or variations in preferences for card complexity. And the following reasons are why I think that, if you choose to supplement a CSR/CSP card for a -fecta, you're much better off just going with a CFU instead of a CFF.

You appear to prefer a more streamlined wallet, and it doesn't appear you've ever had a rotating category card. Rotating category cards have their strengths but of course also their weaknesses. They certainly work better for some of our members than others. (See THIS discussion.) They are often popular with our members who are willing to accept a higher degree of wallet complexity and more attention to card management in exchange for an increase in rewards potential. Determining exactly how much of a premium in rewards you would realize and whether that additional card is worth the hassle is a question you should consider in advance.
Streaming services, movie theatres, fitness centers, and "select" live entertainment are listed as portions of certain quarters, but how close does do you spend an average of $500 per month ($1500 per quarter) on any of these categories? My guess is that it's minor.
Remember that on CFF, your spending cap to get 5% is limited to $1500 per quarter maximum. For some consumers, that may not meet all their quarterly needs. For others, they may spend far less; in that case, it may be tempting to look for ways to drive additional spending to "take advantage" of the enhanced rewards. This becomes non-organic spend being driven by the rewards program which is modifying your normal spending behavior and can be a trap that costs you money that you wouldn't normally have spent.
Would you be adding a CFU alongside the CFF+CSR/CSP? If not, you're only earning 1% cash back (worth 1.25% to 2% in travel) versus the 1.5% cash back (worth 1.875 to 3.00% for travel) if uncategorized purchases were on CFU. IMO, if someone if focused on optimizing UR point earning, the CFF (when appropriate) only makes sense when coupled with a CFU. There are a LOT of purchase categories that don't fit neatly into the rewards categories of either CSR/CSP and CFF. For the example of your grocery bill, and assuming you add a CFU, calculate the incremental value of $600 in a quarter on CFU at 1.5% versus CFF at 5%. (0.035 x $600 = $21.) You get to decide when the additional rewards are worth the hassle of carrying the card. For some, including myself, something less than $100 per year is not worth the hassle. Also, if not adding a CFU, consider the incremental LOSS of rewards on your 1% spend on CFF. It's likely to average-out to much less than 5%.
I just wanted to lay out some considerations for you that might alter your strategy. Perhaps I've misread you and your situation but it appears to me that yours is a classic case where the CFF may not be as suitable as it is for our other members. Best of luck in however you decide to proceed!
I was just thinking the same thing regarding complexity. I attend about 15-20 Chicago Cubs baseball games a year, so the 5% bonus on live entertainment for July - September sounds great - in fact, I just bought a baseball ticket today! However, when factoring in the complexity of the system, not to mention that Chase might not count ticket brokers (i.e. StubHub, SeatGeek), as "live entertainment", it might not be worth the hassle. Even with an higher estimate of $450, the 3.5% effective bonus would only net me $15.75.

With my grocery spend of $200/month, that category would only net me $21 in the first quarter. Looking at the calendar, I don't use fitness clubs, Lowe's, or Target, and only use Amazon occasionally. Therefore, I would be only getting up to $40 in bonuses, and would not get the extra 0.5% cash back on the CFU. Since both the Chase Freedom Flex and Chase Freedom Unlimited have the same SUB ($200 with $500 or more in spend in the first 3 months), it seems like the Freedom Unlimited is better off as a starter card, as it's not worth it for me to track rotating categories to save around $25 ($40 - $3000 [in other expenses]*0.005).

Interestingly enough, there the referral link through NerdWallet for the Chase Freedom Unlimited advertised a SUB of 1.5% cash back on all purchases, up to $20,000. Since I would have to spend at least $13,333 on non-travel expenses to make the $200 cut [as I would put the travel expenses on the Sapphire Reserve], the offer directly through Chase with the flat $200 after at least $500 in purchases through 3 months is the much better option.

It looks like the best plan would be for me to apply for the Chase Freedom Unlimited now and start earning points and the $200 SUB, as I will not be booking any flights and travel until at least the end of October 2023. I can still get great rewards on dining and drugstores, and bank the points in the rewards portal for greater value. Since the sign-up bonus for the Sapphire Reserve increased last year to 80,000 points between October 18 - December 1, that would put me right in line to apply for the CSR, book the airline tickets, and get the bonus!

Thanks,
Jason

P.S. I was looking at purchasing tickets for a "stay and play" package for a music festival in the Netherlands for 2024 as part of my 2 - 2.5 week vacation there, which includes 4-day admission to the festival (located on the grounds of a theme park) along with accomodation either on the festival grounds or at hotels off site. (The tickets and packages for the festival go on sale in mid to late October, which is perfect timing if the CSR has a points bonus at that time.) Since this is a mixed package, would Chase classify this as theme parks/entertainment or hotels? I would probably spend at least $1000 on this package, so this could earn me some decent points. (The only note is that I would probably have to buy it through the festival website, as I doubt that Chase would offer bundled accommodations through their rewards portal.)

So I feel like I was the one who brought up the CFF and CFU add-on cards which may have confused the issue... My point was the Subs in fact if you think about it... getting the CSP & CSR is 2 different 600 dollar subs. CSP is a 95 AF that becomes a free 505 dollars redeemed through the portal on your CSR is 800 or so dollars after the year one cost of the card then simply move the credit limit to the CSR and close the account. The Grocery Sub during the grocery quarter is 9x points again redeemed for hotel is actually 13.5x points per dollar and if you get the card in the grocery quarter is an extra 60x points on the first 500 dollars that is 37k points when redeemed for hotels through the portal. So yes the CFU is the better card for you in the long run the CFF is a quick way to stack up some cheap points, even if you decide to again reallocate the credit limit and close the account.

@Aim_High please correct me if I am wrong here, I am firmly team cash back and my travel card knowledge is largely through osmosis.

Re: Chase Sapphire Reserve vs. Chase Sapphire Preferred - worth the extra $$$?

Aim_High — Tue, 08 Aug 2023 04:36:27 GMT

@Beefy1212 wrote:
So I feel like I was the one who brought up the CFF and CFU add-on cards which may have confused the issue... My point was the Subs in fact if you think about it... getting the CSP & CSR is 2 different 600 dollar subs. CSP is a 95 AF that becomes a free 505 dollars redeemed through the portal on your CSR is 800 or so dollars after the year one cost of the card then simply move the credit limit to the CSR and close the account. The Grocery Sub during the grocery quarter is 9x points again redeemed for hotel is actually 13.5x points per dollar and if you get the card in the grocery quarter is an extra 60x points on the first 500 dollars that is 37k points when redeemed for hotels through the portal. So yes the CFU is the better card for you in the long run the CFF is a quick way to stack up some cheap points, even if you decide to again reallocate the credit limit and close the account.

@Aim_High please correct me if I am wrong here, I am firmly team cash back and my travel card knowledge is largely through osmosis.

No worries @Beefy1212. You made a lot of valid points about strategy. In OPs case in particular, though, I thought the CFF was not a good fit for his profile. SUBs can be very lucrative indeed and I know that for some of our members, travel cards that earn points mainly in travel categories can be tricky to accumulate a meaningful pool of points for redemption. But as much as I love SUBs, I prefer to focus on the overall point earnings on my cards as I don't normally open with SUB-and-close plans.

As for double-dipping on the Sapphires if that is what you meant, Chase only allows (1) Sapphire SUB every 48 months and both cards have the same SUB. Yes, the AF is higher on CSR but OP would gain additional value back from it immediately instead of waiting until after a PC.

I think you may have mixed in an older promotion on CFF that is no longer current in some of your discussion about points on groceries? I'm showing both CFU and CFF currently offer a $200 SUB after spending $500. (That's 20,000 URs worth $200 in cash; $250-$300 in portal travel depending if CSP/CSR; or up to $400 in transfer to partners.). And both have 5x points on gas in year one up to a separate spending cap of $6K. But ... OP has no car or gas spend. Even his groceries were only $200/month or $600/quarter. But yes, if he did have a car, the gas SUB in year one could earn 30K UR (6000 x 5) which is worth as much as $300 in cash; $375-$450 in portal travel depending if CSP/CSR; and as much as $600 if transferred to travel partners.

In OP's case, part of the issue is that the benefit of the 5% categories (and extra 5% year one SUB) are all spend-driven. OP has limited overall spend and also no spend in some of those categories, so in his particular case even the extra 5% SUB has little-if-any value added.

From my experience, the Chase travel portal has been quite competitive when compared to other third party travel booking websites on an apples-to-apples basis.

The 5% categories on CFF can be a valuable accelerator to building URs, but that depends very much on the consumer spending patterns. I believe starting with a Sapphire card + CFU and then adding other cards such as CFF or the INK cards - as appropriate - is the best way to approach the Chase -fecta.