topic Re: Newbie- too many cards too fast? in Credit Cards

Newbie- too many cards too fast?

Technicolorblur — Fri, 11 Aug 2023 23:26:06 GMT

Edit: sorry for the long post.

This is my first post but I've been lurking for a while.

So, over the last 20 years or so I've always had one or two credit cards- I rarely used them but I always paid them off in full when I got the bill. I've also never cared about miles, points, cash back, or even my credit in general. Any time I've needed a loan or a new vehicle I've simply gone to the bank and gotten approved without a single thought about whether or not my credit was good enough. I've been intentionally naive about credit and probably lucky the whole time.

Fast forward to earlier this year and a conversation I had with a coworker about credit, credit cards, rewards, and cash back. Long story short... I was hooked. I don't know what the general thoughts are on this stuff, but to me it seemed like a complex game- a challenge to get to 850 while earning from every dollar spent. I also have a bit of a secret kink for spreadsheets, so the game really had me at spending categories and budgeting.

Ok, so at the time I had a Credit One card that I've had for as long as I can remember and a Venture One that I never used. Both were from mail offers and I don't remember why I accepted them when I did. After watching a ton of YouTube videos, I looked at my credit score and I was at around 650 across the board. I've never missed a payment in my life but I had low available credit and less than five accounts on file. I guess I didn't use my credit enough.

I started by getting a Lowe's card and an Academy card. I put a few hundred dollar balance on each of them and paid them off in full two weeks later. I haven't used either since.

I ended up getting an Apple Card next ($3000 limit) so I could learn to use Apple Pay and cash back for a while. I used it in place of my debit card for around 85% of my spending and paid it off in full every two weeks. I saw the cash back start piling up and my stagnant credit score wiggled a little. My spreadsheet and I were loving it.

Insert record scratch here....

I think I got a little crazy. In mid-June I got an Amex Blue Cash Preferred ($2000 limit) and started using it as my primary in place of my debit card- I hit the sign up bonus within three weeks and maxed out the cash back.

On Prime Day in July, my spreadsheets and I decided we needed a new MacBook so I got a Chase Prime Card ($5000 limit). It came with a $200 instant gift card so I couldn't not get it.

A couple of weeks later I got a Discover It.
Fast Forward to a few days ago...

I've paid every card off bi-weekly except the Prime card ($1000-ish interest free balance) that I pay $50 weekly. My credit score is up to around 775 across the bureaus and my FICO is around 750 last time I checked. I also still have the Credit One, Venture One, Lowes, and Academy cards all with zero balances.

I decided two days ago that I needed to add a card for restaurants and one for 5% back on gas. So I applied for the Citi Custom Cash and the Savor- at the same time on the same day.

if you've kept count you've probably guessed already that I was denied for both. Naturally, I thought it was a fluke. To test my theory I pre-applied for Navy Fed and B of A cards shortly after and was told I was only approved for secured cards.

It's obvious that I screwed up. I likely have too many hard inquiries now and im sure my credit will suffer too.

My question (for anybody who stuck around to read my entire life story here- much appreciated) is how much damage do you think I did? Am I looking at years before I can get another card or months? I'm not an impatient person but I feel like I'm a long way from having all the cards I need to play the game the best I can.

I hope this all makes sense and please excuse my ignorance.

Re: Newbie- too many cards too fast?

30mm_goes_BRRRT — Sat, 12 Aug 2023 00:19:34 GMT

Hey! I'm no expert, but I guarantee you didn't "screw" your score. Yes, you applied for two separate cards and got denials on both. Not a great feeling, I know. Your score might drop 10-20 points. No biggie. Hardpulls stay on your credit report for 24 months, but only affect your score for 12. You'll probably bounce back up to your prior FICO score within a few months, so don't sweat it.

You applied for too many cards in too short a span of time. With how thin your profile is, I would err on the side of caution and give it 6-12 months before applying for a any new card. But seriously, from reading your post, it sounds like you've done a tremendous job bringing up your scores/building your credit profile. Continue to research and do your homework, use the cards you have (the prime is a decent card for dining with 2x btw), and you'll be getting new cards before you know it 💪

Also, lenders are just buckling down right now more than they have been the last year or so. It's just bad timing to get into the game lol

Re: Newbie- too many cards too fast?

Technicolorblur — Sat, 12 Aug 2023 00:42:40 GMT

@30mm_goes_BRRRT- Thanks for the reply. It's reassuring. I just hope I'd doesn't take much more than a year to get totally back on track. I'm patient but I'm not built for waiting. I'm also thinking (like you) that I should pay off the Prime card and use it for restaurants going forward.

Love your username, btw. 🛩️🎯🎯

Re: Newbie- too many cards too fast?

Aim_High — Sat, 12 Aug 2023 01:20:56 GMT

Welcome (out of the shadows) to My FICO Forums, @Technicolorblur.

@30mm_goes_BRRRT gave you sound advice. Yes, you 'over-indulged' a bit. Yes, you need to "garden" as we call it, where you abstain from taking any hard pulls or adding new accounts. How long? In your case, I'd say a minimum of six months but twelve would be better. One problem you have is with two older cards and adding so many recent accounts, you're tanking your AAoA (Average Age of Accounts.) Pace yourself. A good general rule of thumb is to strive for about one new account every six months. Yes, some of us can get by with much more (I just did) but that's why approvals are so profile-specific. Trying to do the same thing you see other members do can backfire for reasons that aren't apparent.

The recent credit-seeking will fade away fairly quickly. I'd encourage you to use one of your spreadsheets to track (4) sets of numbers if you intend to keep adding credit. Three of them are inquires for each of the three credit bureaus (EX, EQ, TU) and the other is how many new personal revolving credit accounts you've added. I do mine with a simple table format and I color-code it with shading to show the last 12 months and the last 24 months. At the top, I summarize it with my x/6 (months); x/12; and x/24 for each category. Different lenders have different standards on how much is too much, but how far they allow an applicant to go will vary somewhat by those profile variables. If you just follow the 1/6 guideline, even without tracking it specifically, you'll usually be no more than 1/6; 2/12; 4/24 which is modest enough to meet most lender's underwriting.

For an example, here is my new personal accounts table. Each entry shows the lender; card; date-of-month. You'll notice that until this year, I had also been gardening for awhile to let new accounts and inquiries age-off. Tables or spreadsheets like this give a good and quick visual depiction of where I am on all those stats and what might be problematic for new applications. You'll also notice that I was able to get away with even more than you did before you got shut down, which is why we caution that YMMV (your mileage may vary.) I got the below approvals with no denials but I over-did it myself a few years ago and got my first two denials in decades due to excessive credit-seeking. Remember that credit is a marathon, not a sprint.

New Personal Credit Accounts as of 08/05/2023 6/6; 7/12; 8/24

Jan

Feb

Mar

Apr

May

Jun

Jul

Aug

Sep

Oct

Nov

Dec

2023

Chase IHG 27

AMEX

Hilton27

Barclay

Aviator

NFCU FSR 07

Synch 19

Verizon

BofA PR ELITE 05

2022

CITI AA 6

2021

AMEX 3

Bonvoy

Re: Newbie- too many cards too fast?

Technicolorblur — Sat, 12 Aug 2023 01:46:21 GMT

Aim_High- Thank you! This is exactly the kind of info I've been looking for. It never really occurred to me to keep track of card approvals and hard inquiries over time. Truthfully, my goal is to get 3-4 high cash back cards that give at least 4%-5% in each of my spending categories (I have no use for travel cards- I travel for my job and family vacations are a perk). I just thought I'd work my way up to those cards, maximize the cash back, and 'garden' for the next 20 years. Never considered that working up to those cards wasn't as simple as just keeping my FICO score up. I need to pay more attention.
Thanks again.
Also, love your username too. Former F-111 guy here.

Re: Newbie- too many cards too fast?

SouthJamaica — Sat, 12 Aug 2023 02:43:37 GMT

@Technicolorblur wrote:
Edit: sorry for the long post.

This is my first post but I've been lurking for a while.
So, over the last 20 years or so I've always had one or two credit cards- I rarely used them but I always paid them off in full when I got the bill. I've also never cared about miles, points, cash back, or even my credit in general. Any time I've needed a loan or a new vehicle I've simply gone to the bank and gotten approved without a single thought about whether or not my credit was good enough. I've been intentionally naive about credit and probably lucky the whole time.
Fast forward to earlier this year and a conversation I had with a coworker about credit, credit cards, rewards, and cash back. Long story short... I was hooked. I don't know what the general thoughts are on this stuff, but to me it seemed like a complex game- a challenge to get to 850 while earning from every dollar spent. I also have a bit of a secret kink for spreadsheets, so the game really had me at spending categories and budgeting.
Ok, so at the time I had a Credit One card that I've had for as long as I can remember and a Venture One that I never used. Both were from mail offers and I don't remember why I accepted them when I did. After watching a ton of YouTube videos, I looked at my credit score and I was at around 650 across the board. I've never missed a payment in my life but I had low available credit and less than five accounts on file. I guess I didn't use my credit enough.
I started by getting a Lowe's card and an Academy card. I put a few hundred dollar balance on each of them and paid them off in full two weeks later. I haven't used either since.
I ended up getting an Apple Card next ($3000 limit) so I could learn to use Apple Pay and cash back for a while. I used it in place of my debit card for around 85% of my spending and paid it off in full every two weeks. I saw the cash back start piling up and my stagnant credit score wiggled a little. My spreadsheet and I were loving it.

Insert record scratch here....
I think I got a little crazy. In mid-June I got an Amex Blue Cash Preferred ($2000 limit) and started using it as my primary in place of my debit card- I hit the sign up bonus within three weeks and maxed out the cash back.
On Prime Day in July, my spreadsheets and I decided we needed a new MacBook so I got a Chase Prime Card ($5000 limit). It came with a $200 instant gift card so I couldn't not get it.
A couple of weeks later I got a Discover It.
Fast Forward to a few days ago...
I've paid every card off bi-weekly except the Prime card ($1000-ish interest free balance) that I pay $50 weekly. My credit score is up to around 775 across the bureaus and my FICO is around 750 last time I checked. I also still have the Credit One, Venture One, Lowes, and Academy cards all with zero balances.
I decided two days ago that I needed to add a card for restaurants and one for 5% back on gas. So I applied for the Citi Custom Cash and the Savor- at the same time on the same day.
if you've kept count you've probably guessed already that I was denied for both. Naturally, I thought it was a fluke. To test my theory I pre-applied for Navy Fed and B of A cards shortly after and was told I was only approved for secured cards.
It's obvious that I screwed up. I likely have too many hard inquiries now and im sure my credit will suffer too.
My question (for anybody who stuck around to read my entire life story here- much appreciated) is how much damage do you think I did? Am I looking at years before I can get another card or months? I'm not an impatient person but I feel like I'm a long way from having all the cards I need to play the game the best I can.
I hope this all makes sense and please excuse my ignorance.

Welcome to the forum.

No, the damage you did is short term.

Give it 6 months or so, and then apply for one good card. There are plenty of cards that are good for restaurants and for gas.

Re: Newbie- too many cards too fast?

30mm_goes_BRRRT — Sat, 12 Aug 2023 03:13:13 GMT

@Technicolorblur glad I could help! And that's pretty awesome you flew f-111s, I'm a JTAC and work with CAS platforms all the time (hence the username). Seems to be quite a few air force peeps on this forum ✈️🇺🇲

Re: Newbie- too many cards too fast?

Technicolorblur — Sat, 12 Aug 2023 07:17:18 GMT

30mm_goes_BRRRT- I didn't fly them, I worked crash/recovery on the F/EF models in the late 90's. Went on to be an AWACS flight engineer when they phased them out.
You really have a fun job.
Thanks again folks for the CC advice.

Re: Newbie- too many cards too fast?

Anonymalous — Sat, 12 Aug 2023 08:47:56 GMT

@Technicolorblur wrote:

Ok, so at the time I had a Credit One card that I've had for as long as I can remember and a Venture One that I never used. Both were from mail offers and I don't remember why I accepted them when I did. After watching a ton of YouTube videos, I looked at my credit score and I was at around 650 across the board. I've never missed a payment in my life but I had low available credit and less than five accounts on file. I guess I didn't use my credit enough.

If you have 2 credit cards and significant age, you should have had a much higher score than the mid-600s. The number of accounts isn't a factor, so if you have no derogatories, it was probably utilization. Were your cards reporting very high balances?

In any case, the 750-775 you saw after you got some additional cards sounds much more reasonable, though as @Aim_High mentioned, your average age is going to drop significantly, so your scores will drop once the cards report to the 3 bureaus. But don't worry about it too much -- I lost more than 10 years of age with a new card and my scores dropped from roughly your current range to the 720s or so, and they've been steadily building back. It's an unavoidable step in building a thicker profile, and you'll ultimately end up in a better place.

You're not being denied because of your credit score. You're being denied for credit seeking -- lenders are sensitive to various degrees to new accounts, and someone opening up a bunch of new tradelines in a relatively short period of time is a red flag, so they'll either cut back on the limits they offer, or deny you entirely. Just let it sit for a few months, and you'll be fine. Then space out applications every 3-6 months.

Look at credit cards as a series of stepping stones. You can't qualify for all the cards you want right away, but the cards you do have are helping to build your profile. As you prove you can handle more cards and higher limits (by paying them off every time and not letting the reported utilization get too high), you'll become more appealing to lenders.

Re: Newbie- too many cards too fast?

Technicolorblur — Sat, 12 Aug 2023 14:58:11 GMT

edit: I have no derogatories, a 100% payment history, and the $1000-ish currently on the Prime card is the only balance Ive ever carried on a card. I've always been a 'cash is king' guy who doesn't feel comfortable having debt. My boat was the first loan that I didn't pay off early and my current truck will be the second.

Anonymalous- Thanks. I have never kept a balance on those two cards and really only used them once or twice a year for a long time. When my daughter started driving two years ago I gave her the Credit One card (my card- not as an authorized user) to use for gas and emergencies, but I've always paid it to zero immediately after she's uses it. Other than those two cards, I have a mortgage (with my wife), a loan on my truck (almost paid off, all payments made early) and a small SoFi loan that I got earlier this year- I didn't need money but I was under the impression that the loan would help my credit. In the last year I've also paid off a boat loan and a camper loan. The boat loan went the duration (all payments made on time) and we paid off the camper way early (payoff was just under $7k- got tired of making payments).

I'm not sure if any of that justifies the 650-ish that I had. I never thought to look at credit age, but Credit Karma says 3yrs 10mos- needs work. I've had the Credit one for probably more than 20 years and the Venture One for maybe 10.
Again, I appreciate you folks helping me get my head around this. For a minute there I felt like a financial wizard who controlled the system. Now it seems the system is reminding me of my real role in this relationship.

Re: Newbie- too many cards too fast?

SUPERSQUID — Sat, 12 Aug 2023 15:37:43 GMT

Plenty of great advise here,

Only 2 things I would like to add.

1 - It was very smart of you to create a spreadsheet for your cards, it ensures you are never late with a payment and some people create very advanced spreadsheets that include all info, my preference is a spreadsheet for all payments and a file for each card showing when opened, cli's or requests of any kind, balance transfers etc.

2 - Never get too down about credit denials, its part of the game, nothing ventured nothing gained. You might get pleasantly surprised someday by an unexpected approval.

Welcome to the forum.

Re: Newbie- too many cards too fast?

Technicolorblur — Sat, 12 Aug 2023 16:05:20 GMT

Supersquid- Thanks. I've been using the cards for everyday spending (haven't used my debit card in months) and paying them to zero ever two weeks. It's worked so far. I'm using three spreadsheets at the moment:

-Weekly/Bi-weekly/Monthly budget- planned out for a year, divided into quarters.

-Actual spending- how much I actually spend weekly by category, what cards are used for what, card due dates and divided bi-weekly. There's a sidebar with a running total on each card to be paid on my bi-weekly 'reconciliation date'

-Bank account info- current running account balances for checking, savings, carry over (money set aside for the next reconciliation date), and my 'slush fund' (my wife and I each set aside 5% of our paychecks for our own personal use- money we each can spend on frivolous nonsense without having to consult with each other).

So far I've been fine with just the three but as mentioned above, I need a record keeping one ASAP. Thanks again.

Re: Newbie- too many cards too fast?

Aim_High — Sat, 12 Aug 2023 16:26:36 GMT

@Technicolorblur wrote:
Aim_High- Thank you! This is exactly the kind of info I've been looking for. It never really occurred to me to keep track of card approvals and hard inquiries over time. Truthfully, my goal is to get 3-4 high cash back cards that give at least 4%-5% in each of my spending categories (I have no use for travel cards- I travel for my job and family vacations are a perk). I just thought I'd work my way up to those cards, maximize the cash back, and 'garden' for the next 20 years. Never considered that working up to those cards wasn't as simple as just keeping my FICO score up. I need to pay more attention.
Thanks again.
Also, love your username too. Former F-111 guy here.

Glad I was able to help, @Technicolorblur.

Yes, as we've mentioned, the numbers of inquiries on the CRB report that is pulled along with the number of new recent accounts by 6/12/24 months are common qualifiers that lenders use in underwriting to protect themselves. While the standards vary by lender and also by the relative strength of the profile, the general guidelines is "less is always better." So yes, continue to go for those cards but think about adding them strategically over the long haul. I'll refer you to a thread that I've started annually for the last three years: "Setting your >2023< Card Strategy<." This is a thread where we discuss our personal goal-setting. A smart credit strategy doesn't just happen.

In the preface, I state:

We often remind each other that "Credit is a marathon, not a Sprint," to try to pace ourselves, and to realize that we need to keep some self-discipline in the process. Self-discipline requires a plan. Periodically, we may look on with horror (or envy) as someone tries to get away with a monster App Spree. We know that's not really the way to build good credit. Overly-seeking credit can be addictive and counterproductive to finances and FICO. As a general guideline, I usually suggest to newer members that slow and steady wins the race, and that planning to add about one new account every six months is a good long-term pacing that will usually keep you within the various lender limitations, especially for those with low-to-medium scores, thinner files or derogatories. The more you go over that, the more likely you'll start getting denials or low-limit approvals eventually, and that's regardless of the strength of your profile.

Having a good strategy requires taking inventory of our existing cards, an honest evaluation of our financial picture and needs, and a careful consideration of which credit cards would be most beneficial. Sometimes, chasing after the FOTM card (Flavor of the Month) or the latest, greatest SUB isn't the card we most need. And over-app'ing can be a disruption to improving our finances with the best card for us. At times, I've been guilty of the impulsive apps so I'm not pointing fingers. But I've also planned for new cards and I'm doing so right now. Writing down my card details and plan helps me to come up with strategies for the short term (~six months), medium term (~one year), and long term (~two years.)

As we approach the new year, and with the goal of making credit changes a premeditated and mindful decision, what are the planned changes for your card lineup in 2023?

Thanks for the compliment on my user name. Yes, I am an Air Force veteran and it is (partially) a nod that heritage. But also, in the credit sense, it refers to aiming high for high credit scores, high credit limits, and in-general setting high goals and aiming to achieve them with the help of the community.

Re: Newbie- too many cards too fast?

Aim_High — Sat, 12 Aug 2023 16:33:26 GMT

@SUPERSQUID wrote:
Never get too down about credit denials, its part of the game, nothing ventured nothing gained.

I know you meant well, @SUPERSQUID, and I agree that one shouldn't get discouraged by a denial. On the other hand, I just wanted to point out to @Technicolorblur that a denial is a warning shot fired across the bow. It means I applied for credit when the lender didn't believe I was qualfied. My job is to figure out what the problem was to avoid future unnecessary denials. A denial is a learning opportunity for self-evaluation and introspection. A consumer who is applying for credit judiciously and responsibly tending to their credit is unlikely to experience very many denials over their lifetime.

Re: Newbie- too many cards too fast?

Aim_High — Sat, 12 Aug 2023 16:57:39 GMT

I agree with @Anonymalous that it's curious why your credit score was in the mid-600's before you started your recent application spree, @Technicolorblur. I have a few ideas, but I'm mostly at a loss of why it was that low.

You have a 20-year credit history. That is significant and should have provided a lot of credit data for the bureaus to boost your FICO scores if there wasn't any derogatory data. Just wondering, but have you actually pulled your three-bureau credit report to see what's in there?? Sometimes, there is erroneous information that is reported which can cause problems. As a consumer, you're allowed to contest it and get incorrect data removed. Normally, you're legally allowed a free copy of each of the CRB's annually. Some consumers get them all at once. Others get one bureau at a time every four months so that they are more continually watching their reports. During the pandemic, the CRBs have allowed unlimited access and that is still in place for now. Do **NOT** got to "free credit report" or similar-sounding names as those will charge you fees for access. Go to annualcreditreport.com for your free reports. You can access them electronically and print them out (check your printer ink and paper status before starting since the reports can be lengthy.) Or you can request to have them snail-mailed to you.
Are those 650-ish scores FICO or are they from a website like Credit Karma? Credit Karma scores are Vantage scores, which aren't the same as FICO. Most lenders use some version of FICO. Some of our members find Vantage scores mimic their FICO scores but depending on profile variations, there can be significant differences.
You have had two credit cards. Ideally, for optimal FICO scoring purposes, it's supposedly best to have at least three. This wouldn't account for a huge variation in scores but could be a minor player. Also, when you pull your reports, check to make sure those two card have been reporting "paid-as-agreed" monthly. They should be doing that, even if you're not using them but it's possible that they weren't. That would hurt your scores since there would be a lack of data on repayment. Likewise, this is one reason that - up to a point - having more cards is better than just a couple because you're building more "data" from repayment history on multiple credit accounts that show you are a responsible consumer.
If you didn't have installment loans, I would have mentioned that. Mix of credit is a factor, so someone who only has credit cards and no mortgage or other loans is at a slight disadvantage. In your case, you have had a LOT of open installment loans. Those hurt your credit initially when your balance is high relative to the initial loan amount. What percentage of your mortgage loan do you still owe? That alone will drag your score down for awhile until you build equity. If your relative balance was high on all those loans, I could see that dragging your scores down.
Carrying balances/utilization would lower your FICOs, but you say you've been paying-in-full. Just remember, though, that if your credit limit is $2,000 and you charge $2,000 every month but pay it off, for FICO scoring purposes you're running 100% utilization!!! The lender knows you are paying your balances off but from a credit bureau viewpoint, it appears to them that you're carrying a $2K balance since $2K continues to report. The solution is to either pay-in-full before the statements post or to pad utilization on both individual and aggregate credit limits. Most of us on the forums, at least to some degree, know our lender's policies on credit limit increase requests, and we appreciate those who give us higher limits with soft-pull requests about every six months.
The recent credit-seeking will (temporarily) ding your credit scores, but as we've mentioned they should start to rebound within about six months to a year as long as you don't add new accounts or inquiries.

Re: Newbie- too many cards too fast?

Brian_Earl_Spilner — Sat, 12 Aug 2023 17:00:16 GMT

Your problem is you didn't have a plan or research the lenders first. Lenders like chase, us bank, and Citi focus on inquiries and number of approvals in a certain time period so they should have been the first to be picked up. For those types of lenders you'll need to hold off on applications until you fall under their thresholds.

I didn't really read the thread, but I'm sure there was a lot about gardening and spacing apps. The reality is, if you have the income, have good credit, and know what you're applying for, you can keep applying until you're blue in the face, all the while continuing to be approved. I've been approved with close to 30 inquiries. There are people here with upwards of 90. I've been approved with 5-6 approvals in a 2 month span. I've been approved with 90% aggregate utilization. If you know who you're applying to, you can continue to be approved. But, if you don't have a plan or research the lenders, that's when you start getting denied, start to get smaller limits, and block yourself from some valuable options.

Re: Newbie- too many cards too fast?

NoMoreE46 — Sat, 12 Aug 2023 17:58:29 GMT

The average American has about four credit cards. I've counted 10 or 11 HPs for you to date.

Issuers can and will monitor one's credit post approval activity. Chase for instance, could yank back that great Prime card from you should it not like your 'credit seeking.' Most are unaware that issuers may view this number of applications within this time span with concern and possibly take AA. Glad you are here to learn @Technicolorblur.

Another bit to consider is that Credit One card itself. If it has an AF, I personally would close it and have your daughter become an AU on another card. Grow your other cards. I would wait at least 12 months but 24 is better before your next app.

When the time is right, landing a slew more of 4% - 5% categories card might be difficult and you should math out the benefits.

For example, the SAVOR card (4%) you applied for has a $95 AF while the Savor One card (3%) has a $0 AF. Running the math on these two has the Savor One being the better card at 3% unless one spends more than $9,500 on the SAVOR card {within the 4% categories} to overcome the $95.

Re: Newbie- too many cards too fast?

Anonymalous — Sat, 12 Aug 2023 18:05:44 GMT

@Technicolorblur wrote:
edit: I have no derogatories, a 100% payment history, and the $1000-ish currently on the Prime card is the only balance Ive ever carried on a card. I've always been a 'cash is king' guy who doesn't feel comfortable having debt. My boat was the first loan that I didn't pay off early and my current truck will be the second.

Anonymalous- Thanks. I have never kept a balance on those two cards and really only used them once or twice a year for a long time. When my daughter started driving two years ago I gave her the Credit One card (my card- not as an authorized user) to use for gas and emergencies, but I've always paid it to zero immediately after she's uses it. Other than those two cards, I have a mortgage (with my wife), a loan on my truck (almost paid off, all payments made early) and a small SoFi loan that I got earlier this year- I didn't need money but I was under the impression that the loan would help my credit. In the last year I've also paid off a boat loan and a camper loan. The boat loan went the duration (all payments made on time) and we paid off the camper way early (payoff was just under $7k- got tired of making payments).
I'm not sure if any of that justifies the 650-ish that I had. I never thought to look at credit age, but Credit Karma says 3yrs 10mos- needs work. I've had the Credit one for probably more than 20 years and the Venture One for maybe 10.
Again, I appreciate you folks helping me get my head around this. For a minute there I felt like a financial wizard who controlled the system. Now it seems the system is reminding me of my real role in this relationship.

Based on that, the 650s make even less sense. Your scores should have been much higher.

With a 20 year old and a 10 year old card, it would take eight(!) 1 year old cards to pull your average age of credit down to 3.8 years -- which I guess makes sense, because you're reporting 5 new cards, and at least 5 installment loans. But regardless, almost 4 years is still quite reasonable.

No, the small SoFi loan wouldn't help your score. Credit building loans primarily help people who have never had an installment loan, and you have plenty. They can also help a bit if you didn't have any open installment loans, but again that's not the case.

Utilization matters for installment loans. A new loan with most of the principle still outstanding is the worst case. As you pay off the loan, your score will slowly increase, until it reaches its peak when the amount left is a bit under 10% (8.9% is a common target). It's counterintuitive, but there's a penalty when you pay an installment loan off entirely.

Utilization for revolving credit (credit cards) is typically the biggest way people can influence their own scores in the short term. One thing you may not understand yet is that your scores don't care whether you pay off your balance en,tirely each month or if you carry a balance (and pay interest). The only thing that matters from a scoring perspective is whether you paid at least the minimum, and the reported utilization. And lenders typically report your utilization when your statement closes, not at the due date. That means if you have a $1000 credit limit, charge $900, and then pay it off in full after they send you your statement, but before it's due, you'll owe $0 in interest, but they'll report very high (90%) utilization. Which will tank your score. The way to get around that is to either pay off the balance earlier, before the statement is cut (which it sounds like you're doing at least to some degree, by paying it off twice a month), or the better method which is to get higher credit limits across the board. If your credit limits are much higher than your typical monthly spend, that keeps your utilization low automatically. For instance, my limits are now high enough that it would be a very unusual month where I exceed 5%.

I agree with @Aim_High that you should consider pulling your 3 credit reports from annualcreditreport.com. That's the official site, with no third parties in the middle trying to monetize you, plus the reports are more comprehensive than elsewhere (you'll see all the soft pulls). They've extended the free weekly reports through at least the end of the year, so might as well take advantage while it lasts. Though I'd recommend printing them to PDF -- that way you can just throw them in a folder on your hard drive, and look them up whenever.

Re: Newbie- too many cards too fast?

SUPERSQUID — Sat, 12 Aug 2023 18:12:03 GMT

@Aim_High wrote:
@SUPERSQUID wrote:
Never get too down about credit denials, its part of the game, nothing ventured nothing gained.
I know you meant well, @SUPERSQUID, and I agree that one shouldn't get discouraged by a denial. On the other hand, I just wanted to point out to @Technicolorblur that a denial is a warning shot fired across the bow. It means I applied for credit when the lender didn't believe I was qualfied. My job is to figure out what the problem was to avoid future unnecessary denials. A denial is a learning opportunity for self-evaluation and introspection. A consumer who is applying for credit judiciously and responsibly tending to their credit is unlikely to experience very many denials over their lifetime.

Understood AIM HIGH, I guess I was speaking in the view of a rebuilder which doesnt describe the op. If you are rebuilding denials are almost unavoidable, at least thats my opinion, otherwise why even apply?

I wouldnt even have some of the good cards I have without having a thick skin for the times it was the 7 - 10 day response. I have 101k in cc limits and some pretty good cards in less than 3 years of rebuild from a bk7 and low income

Re: Newbie- too many cards too fast?

Technicolorblur — Sun, 13 Aug 2023 00:25:44 GMT

I have a lot to learn. FWIW, in the last 6 months I've gotten:

Academy card

Lowes card

Apple card

Sofi loan

Amex

Prime card

Discover card

The Amex and the Apple Card are the ones I use daily. I have always paid the Apple Card off before the statement date (the YouTube videos taught me that). I've only been through one cycle with the Amex and it didn't go well. I paid it off a couple of days before rhe statement date but I had around $120 in pending charges. They somehow pushed the pending ones through early and right before the generated a statement. I'll have that figured out soon.
I really have no idea why my score was so low to start with. I just assumed it was because I either didn't use my credit enough or I didn't use it correctly (not paying off loans early). I'll pull my report tonight and have a look.
Thanks for the education folks. I thought I had a grasp on this and was doing well. Why not? My credit went up 100 pts, my cash back is piling up, and I have more control over spending than I ever have. I'll take my lumps and get back to work.

So one quick question: If I read it correctly, are we saying that (hypothetically) if I use $900 of my $1000 CL Amex over two weeks, even if I pay it to zero it doesn't look good to Amex? Seems counterintuitive? If I spent that way for six months you'd think Amex would appreciate the usage and say 'this dude deserves a limit increase immediately'. Again, pardon my ignorance but what am I missing?