topic Re: Data points on TCL with AMEX and Chase in Credit Cards

Data points on TCL with AMEX and Chase

Aim_High — Wed, 29 Mar 2023 05:27:20 GMT

Since I joined My FICO, part of my focus has been to explore highest individual and Total Credit Limits (TCL) with various lenders. I have additional data points today regarding possible upper limits on Chase cards as well as AMEX revolvers. *Disregard these data points if you're a High Net Worth client or if you have heavy spending on your cards. Both those situations could drive credit limits much higher.

Over the years, my experience has been that many of my lenders often will extend a certain amount of credit based on income and profile, regardless of actual usage of that credit. And as long as I've kept my FICO high with a strong profile, they've allowed me to keep those higher limits without using a large percentage of them. However, at some point, I believe income no longer matters as much as how much of that credit is being used.

Similar to the well-known $99.9K TCL glass ceiling with Bank of America that is hard-to-break, I appear to have reached that ceiling for my situation with both AMEX and Chase. I've had high limit cards with low utilization with both lenders. AMEX TCL was $85K with $75K on my personal Marriott and $10K on my BBP. Chase TCL was $144.4K across five cards, three personal and two business including $90K on my Sapphire Reserve. Today, both lenders approved me for new cards ... but reallocated all of the "new" limits from my existing cards. See: AMEX Hilton Surpass approval. + Chase IHG Rewards Premier approval.

AMEX gave me an expedited CLI from $15K to $45K to $75K on my Marriott card as my only revolver with them, no income verification or financial review required. (>THIS MESSAGE< has links to my three original postings for data points). After that, the music stopped, they asked for access to banking and still would not approve a further increase due to low usage. Then, they approved my Blue Business Plus for $10K but likewise wanted access to business banking to consider a CLI. Today, they reallocated $25K from my Marriott Bonvoy Brilliant to approve my Hilton Surpass. So my theory is that, barring heavy usage and even with high FICO and income, there may be a $75K cap on total AMEX personal revolver credit limits. I may try for the 2x or 3x CLI on the new Hilton to further test this idea.

My Chase TCL after multiple new approvals in 2018-2020 was $138.4K. ($129.4K personal + $9K business.) In February, I was approved for an additional $6K on a new business card, bringing my TCL with Chase to $144.4. During the 2018-2020 approvals for multiple cards, they reallocated limits for the my last approval (World of Hyatt.) I knew I was "done" at that point, but had hoped my increases in income in the past few years might get one more higher limit out of them. But today, they approved my IHG Rewards Premier card for $50K ... by reallocating $40K from CSR and $10K from CFU. I seem to remember seeing several other members in the $135K to $145K range with Chase, so I'm wondering if there is data to be gleaned from this number.

With both lenders, my TCL is less than 40% of household income, and Debt-to-Income is modest. So this is one reason I believe there may be some related caps tied more to spending figures than income figures.

From watching business credit limits with both AMEX/Chase from our other members, it appears that those limits are probably heavily-driven by reported business revenue combined with actual business spending on the accounts. I don't think personal income plays much of a part in higher business limits absent a robust demonstrated business relationship.

As an aside, pushing the limits with both brought up a possibly disturbing data point on my APR. For many years, my approvals have been the lowest in the advertised range with 800+ FICO, thick profile, high income. Both AMEX and Chase did not give me their lowest rates this time. AMEX was 2% from the bottom of the advertised range while Chase went ABOVE the advertised range by 0.25%! I'm wondering if in both cases it's a caution indication, similar to seeing SLs decline in new credit-seeking activity.

So I'm probably done with new credit from both Chase and AMEX for a long time. To clarify, I'm not griping that they have limits as much as I enjoy defining them. I'm very grateful for the generous credit extended to me from all my lenders. I'd be interested in hearing any other data points on TCL with either Chase or AMEX and thought my experience might help others in the community.

Re: Data points on TCL with AMEX and Chase

CreditCuriosity — Tue, 28 Mar 2023 23:46:05 GMT

Just a quick note from my experience as still very tired form twp 800 mile driving trips days in the last 5 days which one was returning today so I will keep it short(Tampa to Nashville and then back). Chase is generally 40-50% of income from what I have seen historically. Amex you possibly could be onto something, but I know your Income is certainly higher than mine especially considering household as I am just me and other DP's you have provided in the past. Anyways with AMEX I have 80k with them. 4 business cards with 70k of the limits on them and one new recent personal Amex Delta(closed business Lowes same 10k amt as approved for personal mentioned after) for the 70k sky pesos for 10k. So no way to prove out if there is really limit on individual AMEX cards being personal ones if a person isn't high net worth.

With AMEX you possibly could be bumping up to the economic conditions we are currently experiencing as a country and lending for some issuers being impacted just like when for the majority of the people they reduced it to 4 revolvers vs 5 then once things got a bit better back to 5. I think 4 was when the pandemic first started then about a year later or something went back to 5 if memory is correct. Also to note AMEX my reported business income is 5k, so they are really just considering my personal income as I do have an EIN which I am not using for old 1099 purposes and just use SSN and put 5k from crypto ventures, etc. So they are relying on w-2 income mainly from primary job and don't mind mixing personal w/business for me and likely others? Been with Amex since 97 per the cards, but in reality it goes back longer as been on Parents amex cards back into the 80's, but never pushed that as means nothing these days since backdating went away.

Re: Data points on TCL with AMEX and Chase

fury1995 — Wed, 29 Mar 2023 00:12:11 GMT

@Aim_High wrote:

Over the years, my experience has been that many of my lenders often will extend a certain amount of credit based on income and profile, regardless of actual usage of that credit. And as long as I've kept my FICO high with a strong profile, they've allowed me to keep those higher limits without using a large percentage of them. However, at some point, I believe income no longer matters as much as how much of that credit is being used.

As an aside, pushing the limits with both brought up a possibly disturbing data point on my APR. For many years, my approvals have been the lowest in the advertised range with 800+ FICO, thick profile, high income. Both AMEX and Chase did not give me their lowest rates this time. AMEX was 2% from the bottom of the advertised range while Chase went ABOVE the advertised range by 0.25%! I'm wondering if in both cases it's a caution indication, similar to seeing SLs decline in new credit-seeking activity.

This is FANTASTIC information!

You're are ahead of me on the same track I've been trying to go down.

I haven't seen many folks with these kind of data points that closely matches my profile (and intentions) so... I guess you have a new myFico stalker as now I have to go find every thread you've started and read them thoroughly.

Super Kudos!!

Re: Data points on TCL with AMEX and Chase

K-in-Boston — Wed, 29 Mar 2023 00:50:49 GMT

I know you gave the disclaimer of heavy spend but in my case, even that hasn't really helped with Amex. I am at $90,500 total and haven't had a CLI in years (although I did have a few business cards approved for $10k each with no reallocation once they cut the tap off). My personal Amex spend is slightly more than that annually that except for a year or two where I may have dipped down into the $85k-95k range while chasing SUBs elsewhere. For a few years I seemed to have been stuck around 15-20% of income. Back when SPG card was king, I was even running over my credit line every month because monthly spend between statement close and due date combined with statement balance was hindering me. Meanwhile I know there were plenty of people with modest incomes getting fairly close to their annual income with Amex. It doesn't seem to scale. What I spend on and how I spend has changed quite a bit so thankfully the limits are fine for me. But I'd still like to hit $100k with Amex someday just because I set it as a goal about 7 years ago. 😂

With Chase I am at $49,500 and don't foresee moving up. They don't get that much spend, so I am okay with that, but they seem to have turned off the tap for me at a fairly low %.

Re: Data points on TCL with AMEX and Chase

HHH71 — Wed, 29 Mar 2023 03:51:52 GMT

My Amex experience is very similar. I have the platinum personal card and my biggest purchase at once there was $17,000. I have only ever checked spending power of $50k and it was authorized. My credit limits seems to be stuck at $75,000 between three cards. I have the Marriott Bonvoy, Hilton Aspire, and Delta (whatever it's called (purple one)). The last card I got was the Delta and the initial CL was only $10k. That brought me to the $75 k total CL mark. I also noticed none of my accounts show the increase credit limit anymore. I would guess if I apped for another credit card with them they would move limits around.

When they approved my Marriott CL to $40k they asked for a bank statement. I sent them one of my accounts that had around $56,000 in there at the time because I didn't see a way to add more accounts. In a couple days they approved the CLI.

So far Chase has been annoying. I don't want a hard pull credit limit increase so I have just left them alone. My Amazon prime gets a ton of usage (about $60,000 annual) but that's it. I downgraded reserve to preferred, and have a freedom unlimited. Those two get next to nothing in terms is usage. I have a ink business card. My total chase CL is about $63,000. I hear they now do a soft pull. I might give them a call.

My FICO scores move around between 790-820 depending on whether I miss a credit card balance making the statement or not. My utilization is usually 2%, but has been as high a 8%. My wife will make $4k purchase right on the day they pull balance for statement and I didn't see it.

I report to them an income of $500,000.

Re: Data points on TCL with AMEX and Chase

M_Smart007 — Wed, 29 Mar 2023 04:00:20 GMT

@HHH71 wrote:

So far Chase has been annoying. I don't want a hard pull credit limit increase so I have just left them alone. My Amazon prime gets a ton of usage (about $60,000 annual) but that's it. I downgraded reserve to preferred, and have a freedom unlimited. Those two get next to nothing in terms is usage. I have a ink business card. My total chase CL is about $63,000. I hear they now do a soft pull. I might give them a call.

My FICO scores move around between 790-820 depending on whether I miss a credit card balance making the statement or not. My utilization is usually 2%, but has been as high a 8%. My wife will make $4k purchase right on the day they pull balance for statement and I didn't see it.

I report to them an income of $500,000.

@HHH71,

That is correct ...Chase CLI's are "SP" [read here]

Make sure to read the last pages of thread.

Now back to regular scheduled topic.

Re: Data points on TCL with AMEX and Chase

NoHardLimits — Wed, 29 Mar 2023 05:15:09 GMT

I have some data points to contribute which seem to corroborate the other comments in this thread.

For Chase, my maximum TCL hit $137k before having to reallocate for a new card. At that time, the TCL was approximately 45% of household income. The breakdown between personal and business lines was $127k and $10k.

For Amex, my maximum TCL hit $76k before having to reallocate for a new card. At that time, the TCL was approximately 39% of household income. The breakdown between personal and business lines was $58k and $18k.

Re: Data points on TCL with AMEX and Chase

nytokyobred79 — Wed, 29 Mar 2023 12:11:19 GMT

@Aim_High

Thank you for sharing this. Very informative.

From my own personal experience, Chase has been more willing to increase my TCL regardless of overall spending patterns vs Amex ( all things else equal such as profile and overall income). Currently, my Amex TCL is 52.6K vs 75.8K for Chase. For Amex, this TCL is around 30% of my reported income vs roughly 40% for Chase.

I ran roughly 22K through Amex all of 2022 vs around 7K total for Chase. The interesting result is that while Amex is not willing to extend any further CLI requests based on overall spending patterns across my cards, Chase was willing to extend me an additional 32.4K last month with only a fraction of the spend compared to Amex. My total income has increased around 11-12% from a year ago but it seems that only Chase is being influenced by that. As it so happens, I have a big family vacation coming so I expect significantly higher spend next few months(10K) so I'll run it through Chase. UTI will remain lower and hopefully the spending pattern will be more in line with the limit.

In the end, I'm thankful for the limits Amex has extended and if anything, I'm really only thinking about product changes at this point. Regardless, it's very interesting to see how these two lenders differ extending to each unique profile.

Re: Data points on TCL with AMEX and Chase

MarkintheHV — Tue, 23 May 2023 23:22:48 GMT

I can't speak for Chase (we dont like each other), but I can speak for Amex. Started off with a BCP and a CL of 15k. Got the 3x CLI to 45k (seems stuck because they keep telling me not enough usage (and they are correct)). I have a Delta business platinum with a 62k CL, and no CLI on the business side since I do not keep a business checking account that they insist on looking at. I just added a BBC on the business side for the 0% for a year, and they gave me a 2k CL. My total exposure to Amex is 107k with income reported between 250-300k annual. I do also have the Platinum charge which gets most of my spending.

Hope these points help.

Re: Data points on TCL with AMEX and Chase

Saleen099 — Wed, 29 Mar 2023 16:44:39 GMT

@K-in-Boston wrote:
I know you gave the disclaimer of heavy spend but in my case, even that hasn't really helped with Amex. I am at $90,500 total and haven't had a CLI in years (although I did have a few business cards approved for $10k each with no reallocation once they cut the tap off). My personal Amex spend is slightly more than that annually that except for a year or two where I may have dipped down into the $85k-95k range while chasing SUBs elsewhere. For a few years I seemed to have been stuck around 15-20% of income. Back when SPG card was king, I was even running over my credit line every month because monthly spend between statement close and due date combined with statement balance was hindering me. Meanwhile I know there were plenty of people with modest incomes getting fairly close to their annual income with Amex. It doesn't seem to scale. What I spend on and how I spend has changed quite a bit so thankfully the limits are fine for me. But I'd still like to hit $100k with Amex someday just because I set it as a goal about 7 years ago. 😂

With Chase I am at $49,500 and don't foresee moving up. They don't get that much spend, so I am okay with that, but they seem to have turned off the tap for me at a fairly low %.

@K-in-Boston You made a mistake it should say 149K with Chase.

Re: Data points on TCL with AMEX and Chase

K-in-Boston — Wed, 29 Mar 2023 16:57:16 GMT

@Saleen099 wrote:
@K-in-Boston wrote:
I know you gave the disclaimer of heavy spend but in my case, even that hasn't really helped with Amex. I am at $90,500 total and haven't had a CLI in years (although I did have a few business cards approved for $10k each with no reallocation once they cut the tap off). My personal Amex spend is slightly more than that annually that except for a year or two where I may have dipped down into the $85k-95k range while chasing SUBs elsewhere. For a few years I seemed to have been stuck around 15-20% of income. Back when SPG card was king, I was even running over my credit line every month because monthly spend between statement close and due date combined with statement balance was hindering me. Meanwhile I know there were plenty of people with modest incomes getting fairly close to their annual income with Amex. It doesn't seem to scale. What I spend on and how I spend has changed quite a bit so thankfully the limits are fine for me. But I'd still like to hit $100k with Amex someday just because I set it as a goal about 7 years ago. 😂

With Chase I am at $49,500 and don't foresee moving up. They don't get that much spend, so I am okay with that, but they seem to have turned off the tap for me at a fairly low %.
@K-in-Boston You made a mistake it should say 149K with Chase.

If you could talk to JPM on my behalf it would be greatly appreciated. I'll take it on a Ritz-Carlton. 😉

I have yet to hit $100k with anyone. BoA infamously cut me off $100 shy.

Re: Data points on TCL with AMEX and Chase

SouthJamaica — Wed, 29 Mar 2023 17:20:39 GMT

@K-in-Boston wrote:
@Saleen099 wrote:
@K-in-Boston wrote:
I know you gave the disclaimer of heavy spend but in my case, even that hasn't really helped with Amex. I am at $90,500 total and haven't had a CLI in years (although I did have a few business cards approved for $10k each with no reallocation once they cut the tap off). My personal Amex spend is slightly more than that annually that except for a year or two where I may have dipped down into the $85k-95k range while chasing SUBs elsewhere. For a few years I seemed to have been stuck around 15-20% of income. Back when SPG card was king, I was even running over my credit line every month because monthly spend between statement close and due date combined with statement balance was hindering me. Meanwhile I know there were plenty of people with modest incomes getting fairly close to their annual income with Amex. It doesn't seem to scale. What I spend on and how I spend has changed quite a bit so thankfully the limits are fine for me. But I'd still like to hit $100k with Amex someday just because I set it as a goal about 7 years ago. 😂

With Chase I am at $49,500 and don't foresee moving up. They don't get that much spend, so I am okay with that, but they seem to have turned off the tap for me at a fairly low %.
@K-in-Boston You made a mistake it should say 149K with Chase.
If you could talk to JPM on my behalf it would be greatly appreciated. I'll take it on a Ritz-Carlton. 😉

I have yet to hit $100k with anyone. BoA infamously cut me off $100 shy.

I had 100k TCL with BoA over 5 accounts, 2 personal and 3 business. Then one day they closed all of my personal accounts for the reason, supposedly, that I had enough credit. Then they closed all of my business accounts for the reason that they had closed my personal accounts. In about 2 days, my 100k TCL with BoA went to zero. Not pleasant.

Re: Data points on TCL with AMEX and Chase

Anonymous — Wed, 29 Mar 2023 19:20:34 GMT

@Saleen099 wrote:
@K-in-Boston You made a mistake it should say 149K with Chase.

Not according to the images in his sig.

Re: Data points on TCL with AMEX and Chase

Anonymous — Wed, 29 Mar 2023 19:24:32 GMT

@K-in-Boston wrote:
If you could talk to JPM on my behalf it would be greatly appreciated. I'll take it on a Ritz-Carlton. 😉

I have yet to hit $100k with anyone. BoA infamously cut me off $100 shy.

Just talked to Jamie, banker to banker. He was sympathetic but basically he is waiting for another bank to be first to $100K "Maybe they know something I don't!" and then laughed at the implausiblilty of that.

Re: Data points on TCL with AMEX and Chase

Aim_High — Tue, 04 Apr 2023 18:02:18 GMT

@CreditCuriosity wrote:
Chase is generally 40-50% of income from what I have seen historically.

That's what I've seen and heard reported too, @CreditCuriosity but it seems it depends.

As @coldfusion commented in this link, the 50% is more typical for modest income combined with pristine payment history. I agree with that.

I was in the 40%-range, then upper 30%-range, now about 30%-range. As my income has risen, my CL to income ratio hasn't completely kept up. This is with 800+ FICOs, thick file, long Chase relationship (23+ years), multiple cards, deposit accounts. My guess is to keep that 40% to 50% ratio, you'd have to be using a lot of the credit already allocated to you (which I admit I'm not) or be high wealth with Private Client or Private Banking.

When they reallocated my credit limits, they sent me a letter disclosing it and told me the decision was based on:

You already have the maximum amount of credit we can offer you.
Your current amount of credit is enough in relation to your income.

Re: Data points on TCL with AMEX and Chase

Aim_High — Tue, 04 Apr 2023 18:04:28 GMT

@fury1995 wrote:
This is FANTASTIC information!

You're are ahead of me on the same track I've been trying to go down.

I haven't seen many folks with these kind of data points that closely matches my profile (and intentions) so... I guess you have a new myFico stalker as now I have to go find every thread you've started and read them thoroughly.

Super Kudos!!

Thanks @fury1995. Always good to gain a new stalker. lol

Re: Data points on TCL with AMEX and Chase

Aim_High — Tue, 04 Apr 2023 18:12:49 GMT

@K-in-Boston wrote:
I know you gave the disclaimer of heavy spend but in my case, even that hasn't really helped with Amex. I am at $90,500 total and haven't had a CLI in years (although I did have a few business cards approved for $10k each with no reallocation once they cut the tap off). My personal Amex spend is slightly more than that annually that except for a year or two where I may have dipped down into the $85k-95k range while chasing SUBs elsewhere. For a few years I seemed to have been stuck around 15-20% of income. Back when SPG card was king, I was even running over my credit line every month because monthly spend between statement close and due date combined with statement balance was hindering me. Meanwhile I know there were plenty of people with modest incomes getting fairly close to their annual income with Amex. It doesn't seem to scale. What I spend on and how I spend has changed quite a bit so thankfully the limits are fine for me. But I'd still like to hit $100k with Amex someday just because I set it as a goal about 7 years ago. 😂

With Chase I am at $49,500 and don't foresee moving up. They don't get that much spend, so I am okay with that, but they seem to have turned off the tap for me at a fairly low %.

Thanks for those data points, @K-in-Boston. They are very interesting to me since I know you're a heavy AMEX spender. My experience combined with what I'm reading in the thread is that AMEX appears have most members capped at $75K to $95K on revolvers. And income and spend doesn't seem to sway it much, unless we're getting to super-high utilization or incomes.

With AMEX, that 15% to 20% of income might be onto something, as I think mine correlates. So perhaps, 15% to 20% of income up to the point of reaching whatever that 75K+ cap is between revolvers, then leveling off similar to what I've seen with my Chase limits or Bank of America limits. (IF) I were to have more invested with either bank or high spend, I imagine they could increase but without those factors, I'm probably at maximum exposure.

Good luck on your AMEX $100K quest!

Your low Chase exposure caught my attention also and it makes me wonder if someone has a lot of AMEX cards if that somehow dissuades Chase from offering more due to the rivalry between those two?? Just a thought. I got my high Chase limits while I didn't have any AMEX cards.

Re: Data points on TCL with AMEX and Chase

Aim_High — Tue, 04 Apr 2023 18:15:56 GMT

@NoHardLimits wrote:
I have some data points to contribute which seem to corroborate the other comments in this thread.

For Chase, my maximum TCL hit $137k before having to reallocate for a new card. At that time, the TCL was approximately 45% of household income. The breakdown between personal and business lines was $127k and $10k.

For Amex, my maximum TCL hit $76k before having to reallocate for a new card. At that time, the TCL was approximately 39% of household income. The breakdown between personal and business lines was $58k and $18k.

Thanks, @NoHardLimits for those data points. I believe your profile and TCL has been part of my reason for thinking there might be something to that $135K to $145K number with Chase.

Re: Data points on TCL with AMEX and Chase

Aim_High — Tue, 04 Apr 2023 18:26:22 GMT

@nytokyobred79 wrote:

From my own personal experience, Chase has been more willing to increase my TCL regardless of overall spending patterns vs Amex ( all things else equal such as profile and overall income).

The interesting result is that while Amex is not willing to extend any further CLI requests based on overall spending patterns across my cards, Chase was willing to extend me an additional 32.4K last month with only a fraction of the spend compared to Amex.

My total income has increased around 11-12% from a year ago but it seems that only Chase is being influenced by that.

Regardless, it's very interesting to see how these two lenders differ extending to each unique profile.

Those comments are all spot-on from my experience with these two, @nytokyobred79.

AMEX pushes to get all your spend; Chase wants it too, but can be generous without it. And overall, Chase seems more generous with TCL than AMEX overall. I contribute this to the different business model, where American Express National Bank doesn't have nearly the assets backing their lending as the "Big Five" banks (Chase, Bank of America, Wells Fargo, CITI, US Bank.) They are the only lender with a big charge card presence instead of credit cards. This explains a lot about AMEX, including how they seem extra attentive to credit report changes, rewards abuse, and the lower revolving credit limits. Revolvers are also known to get their strictest underwriting, and that's for a reason. They'd much prefer with their business model to get paid back monthly on charge card spend than to float debt for customers. And while they've gotten into the credit end of the business in the past 25 years, they are very cautious about how they handle it. (And yes, it's only been about 25 years since AMEX introduced its' first revolver, the (original) "Optima" card. (Not the one offered now.)

Re: Data points on TCL with AMEX and Chase

nytokyobred79 — Tue, 04 Apr 2023 23:33:56 GMT

@Aim_High wrote:
@nytokyobred79 wrote:

From my own personal experience, Chase has been more willing to increase my TCL regardless of overall spending patterns vs Amex ( all things else equal such as profile and overall income).

The interesting result is that while Amex is not willing to extend any further CLI requests based on overall spending patterns across my cards, Chase was willing to extend me an additional 32.4K last month with only a fraction of the spend compared to Amex.

My total income has increased around 11-12% from a year ago but it seems that only Chase is being influenced by that.

Regardless, it's very interesting to see how these two lenders differ extending to each unique profile.
Those comments are all spot-on from my experience with these two, @nytokyobred79.

AMEX pushes to get all your spend; Chase wants it too, but can be generous without it. And overall, Chase seems more generous with TCL than AMEX overall. I contribute this to the different business model, where American Express National Bank doesn't have nearly the assets backing their lending as the "Big Five" banks (Chase, Bank of America, Wells Fargo, CITI, US Bank.) They are the only lender with a big charge card presence instead of credit cards. This explains a lot about AMEX, including how they seem extra attentive to credit report changes, rewards abuse, and the lower revolving credit limits. Revolvers are also known to get their strictest underwriting, and that's for a reason. They'd much prefer with their business model to get paid back monthly on charge card spend than to float debt for customers. And while they've gotten into the credit end of the business in the past 25 years, they are very cautious about how they handle it. (And yes, it's only been about 25 years since AMEX introduced its' first revolver, the (original) "Optima" card. (Not the one offered now.)

Thank you for the additional insights and confirmation that my experience is not necessarily an outlier for Chase. But your points around the difference of financial backing, ie., these large banks vs Amex makes sense.

Given that Chase was willing to offer such high cli's to me earlier this year, I've already run through about 25% of my new CFU limit ( 46.8K) due to upcoming overseas travel. Truthfully, I don't need any additional credit from them but I'm curious to see if running nearly 11K through this card the past month and continued spend throughout the year results in additional credit being extended. But I also want to demonstrate a need for the limit as well.

As always, I appreciate the insights you and the others share here 😊