topic Re: AMEX FR - income related? in Credit Cards

AMEX FR - income related?

bichonmom — Sun, 20 Nov 2011 05:22:02 GMT

Since the FR seems to be Amex confirming income via tax forms, I wonder if there is an income threshhold that once you pass can trigger an FR. Like, maybe if your income is over $100k, it doesn't automatically trigger an FR, but it puts you on their radar for a potential FR. Whereas, if your income is less than $100k, they doubt you're lying and you don't fall under the FR radar.

Just a thought... Has anyone gotten an FR without a really high income? Or, conversely, has anyone making $50 to $75k gotten FR'd? I'm kind of picking numbers out of thin air, but relatively speaking, I'm thinking that if you're claiming over $100k, they may think you're more likely inflating your income than if your making $50 to $75k.

It appears the *type* of card doesn't make a difference. Maybe the amount of income is one of their triggers. What is everyone's experience?

Re: AMEX FR - income related?

haulingthescoreup — Sun, 20 Nov 2011 05:38:06 GMT

I've read plenty of report of F/R's by those with lower incomes. Interesting theory, though.

There's no one cause, but it does appear that going completely bat-wild upon getting the card sets off bells. All this run-it-up, check-the-limit, etc stuff is NOT what American Express would expect as normal usage. I just don't understand the urge to cowboy around with these cards, or any others, for that matter. It's well established that if you use their cards a lot and pay them promptly, CLI's (for the revolvers) and higher internal limits (for the chargers) come along on a regular basis.

Re: AMEX FR - income related?

sandsanta — Sun, 20 Nov 2011 05:47:33 GMT

Please refer to my thread for the recorded criteria.

The only factor income plays in an FR is the creditor confirming your ability to pay debts. FR's have been done on people making under anywhere from 0 to $millions +.

Re: AMEX FR - income related?

bichonmom — Sun, 20 Nov 2011 06:05:25 GMT

@haulingthescoreup wrote:
I've read plenty of report of F/R's by those with lower incomes. Interesting theory, though.

There's no one cause, but it does appear that going completely bat-wild upon getting the card sets off bells. All this run-it-up, check-the-limit, etc stuff is NOT what American Express would expect as normal usage. I just don't understand the urge to cowboy around with these cards, or any others, for that matter. It's well established that if you use their cards a lot and pay them promptly, CLI's (for the revolvers) and higher internal limits (for the chargers) come along on a regular basis.

What you said makes sense. It's just that I've read here about people getting FRd after making a small purchase (like gas or something like that). I could understand if, as you said, someone went hog-wild and charged up a lot right away.I thought that maybe the stated income amount might be a factor.

The Costco Amex is on my wish/goal list for the next year or two, but with all the talk about FRs, I'm not so sure. Plus, I'd want backdating, and now I'm also concerned that that could trigger a FR with them.

Re: AMEX FR - income related?

Anonymous — Sun, 20 Nov 2011 06:26:39 GMT

An FR is basically a followup of a borrower's creditworthiness - to make sure a borrower's income/ability to pay and potential financial responsibility level 'matches' the debt currently owed and 'matches' the lines of credit that they are given.

I'm not sure why everyone is surprised about this process considering creditworthiness definitely depends on the borrower's ability to pay off debts that are owed - either right now or in the near future. An FR in terms of credit cards aren't generally triggered for absolutely no reason, but considering an FR is done as part of the underwriting process when you rent an apartment or apply for a mortgage or other major line of credit, it makes sense that being in possession of other lines of credit might involve an FR at some point or another, too.

Re: AMEX FR - income related?

bichonmom — Sun, 20 Nov 2011 07:03:53 GMT

The FRs that everyone is talking about w/Amex is a surprise (or for some a shock that comes in the form of a decline when they go to make a purchase) AFTER they have been approved for, and used, the card. There are other threads that talk about this issue. It's not an issue of confirming income *when* applying; it's an issue of checking up on people for no apparent reason *after* they have been approved. For most people, it seems to come out of nowhere. It's *not* precipitated by anything in particular (e.g. CLI request, major purchase, etc.). That's why I thought that perhaps the stated income would be a factor on Amex's radar.

Re: AMEX FR - income related?

improvingmycredit — Sun, 20 Nov 2011 07:59:13 GMT

@bichonmom wrote:
The FRs that everyone is talking about w/Amex is a surprise (or for some a shock that comes in the form of a decline when they go to make a purchase) AFTER they have been approved for, and used, the card. There are other threads that talk about this issue. It's not an issue of confirming income *when* applying; it's an issue of checking up on people for no apparent reason *after* they have been approved. For most people, it seems to come out of nowhere. It's *not* precipitated by anything in particular (e.g. CLI request, major purchase, etc.). That's why I thought that perhaps the stated income would be a factor on Amex's radar.

+1

I'm currently getting FR'd and I gave no reason. Charged a grand total of $35.00 within the first week of getting card, all info on my app is correct and when I asked why I was being FR'd, I was told that a lot of new accounts go through this "vetting" process to confirm income. Regardless, I am not concerned about losing the card because I absolutely was forthright, but I did find out while making another small purchase and was declined. I should have an answer on Monday I was informed regarding the outcome of this FR. I will post more info if I can gleen it from the rep handling my case. If it makes any difference, my income is +100K and this is for a Zync card.

Re: AMEX FR - income related?

bichonmom — Sun, 20 Nov 2011 08:17:02 GMT

I hope all goes well for you! It is interesting that your income is over the threshold amount I made up. Of course, that doesn't prove anything. Still, I sincerely doubt they're going to be FR-ing people who are claiming a small annual gross income... IF what they are really checking is, in fact, income.

Re: AMEX FR - income related?

LS2982 — Sun, 20 Nov 2011 13:10:30 GMT

I does not make any sense to fear this much using a credit card. AMEX gets 1 shot from me when my file is ready for them. They can have it back if an F/R comes. There are too many CC's out here to be worrying about if a particular one is gonna work when I swipe it.

Re: AMEX FR - income related?

Anonymous — Sun, 20 Nov 2011 13:16:08 GMT

I agree with Mod. I don't believe income plays ANY part in being subject to a financial review. It's just a random spin of the wheel or either some kind of demonstrated suspicious usage/activity. You can have suspicious activity making $35K or $200K. So because AmEx doesn't actually know what each card holder's actual income is, they do financial reviews. Makes sense to me. I'd do that too, randomly. And given the amount of people who have defaulted on credit cards, especially theirs, I think it's the only thing a company can do to protect themselves. Quite frankly, if they did one on me, I'd just be like "whatever...what do you need?". I don't have to lie about my income or my meager assets. My income and taxes are what they are. Bring it. Personally, I like the card and enjoy having it in my rotation. I think any creditor who extends significant amounts of credit should be able to question the consumer's financial means and if it's no problem, then they should be able to prove it.

Re: AMEX FR - income related?

Mekitcat — Sun, 20 Nov 2011 14:52:54 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
I agree with Mod. I don't believe income plays ANY part in being subject to a financial review. It's just a random spin of the wheel or either some kind of demonstrated suspicious usage/activity. You can have suspicious activity making $35K or $200K. So because AmEx doesn't actually know what each card holder's actual income is, they do financial reviews. Makes sense to me. I'd do that too, randomly. And given the amount of people who have defaulted on credit cards, especially theirs, I think it's the only thing a company can do to protect themselves. Quite frankly, if they did one on me, I'd just be like "whatever...what do you need?". I don't have to lie about my income or my meager assets. My income and taxes are what they are. Bring it. Personally, I like the card and enjoy having it in my rotation. I think any creditor who extends significant amounts of credit should be able to question the consumer's financial means and if it's no problem, then they should be able to prove it.

Re: AMEX FR - income related?

Anonymous — Sun, 20 Nov 2011 14:56:59 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
I agree with Mod. I don't believe income plays ANY part in being subject to a financial review. It's just a random spin of the wheel or either some kind of demonstrated suspicious usage/activity. You can have suspicious activity making $35K or $200K. So because AmEx doesn't actually know what each card holder's actual income is, they do financial reviews. Makes sense to me. I'd do that too, randomly. And given the amount of people who have defaulted on credit cards, especially theirs, I think it's the only thing a company can do to protect themselves. Quite frankly, if they did one on me, I'd just be like "whatever...what do you need?". I don't have to lie about my income or my meager assets. My income and taxes are what they are. Bring it. Personally, I like the card and enjoy having it in my rotation. I think any creditor who extends significant amounts of credit should be able to question the consumer's financial means and if it's no problem, then they should be able to prove it.

As intrusive as it may be, the poster I have quoted has made a very good point, and if I'm ever FR'd by AmEx, I'd ask them what they need and get it over with period.

Re: AMEX FR - income related?

bichonmom — Sun, 20 Nov 2011 17:35:55 GMT

I wasn't really debating whether FR is right or wrong. I was only posing a theory that one of the factors could be the annual income stated on the app that might put someone on their radar for a FR.

Re: AMEX FR - income related?

llecs — Sun, 20 Nov 2011 17:36:27 GMT

As an FYI if anyone cares, I applied for Amex and understated my income to be $89k (HHI). Then after 9 months got FR'd and the previous year's 1040 showed $112k. But I don't think it's income-related. I know of several millionaires who literally live paycheck to paycheck. They never changed their habits and bought a home and cars they can't afford.

My FR was triggered by a purchase for services at a law firm, so says the Amex CSR. I was starting a new business and needed some trademark/patent work done. I asked my attorney about CC rejections and said for some reason about 25%-50% of his clients who use an Amex get rejected for whatever reason.

Re: AMEX FR - income related?

Walt_K — Sun, 20 Nov 2011 18:34:59 GMT

@impovingmycredit wrote:

@bichonmom wrote:
The FRs that everyone is talking about w/Amex is a surprise (or for some a shock that comes in the form of a decline when they go to make a purchase) AFTER they have been approved for, and used, the card. There are other threads that talk about this issue. It's not an issue of confirming income *when* applying; it's an issue of checking up on people for no apparent reason *after* they have been approved. For most people, it seems to come out of nowhere. It's *not* precipitated by anything in particular (e.g. CLI request, major purchase, etc.). That's why I thought that perhaps the stated income would be a factor on Amex's radar.

+1

I'm currently getting FR'd and I gave no reason. Charged a grand total of $35.00 within the first week of getting card, all info on my app is correct and when I asked why I was being FR'd, I was told that a lot of new accounts go through this "vetting" process to confirm income. Regardless, I am not concerned about losing the card because I absolutely was forthright, but I did find out while making another small purchase and was declined. I should have an answer on Monday I was informed regarding the outcome of this FR. I will post more info if I can gleen it from the rep handling my case. If it makes any difference, my income is +100K and this is for a Zync card.

In a previous post, you said you had a prior account that was closed down by Amex when you fell behind. While you made good on it later, I'd guess that might have put you at higher risk for FR.

Re: AMEX FR - income related?

andyaycw — Sun, 20 Nov 2011 18:42:16 GMT

Is Amex still looking at where you buy your items? I remember reading something about that awhile ago where they flagged certain stores as higher risk and had partially based their FRs on this. I thought they had done away with that?

Re: AMEX FR - income related?

Walt_K — Sun, 20 Nov 2011 18:57:47 GMT

@andyaycw wrote:
Is Amex still looking at where you buy your items? I remember reading something about that awhile ago where they flagged certain stores as higher risk and had partially based their FRs on this. I thought they had done away with that?

Not sure what you are referring to, but I recall discussion of a an article from 2008/2009 (can't remember) where a customer had his credit limit reduced. I don't remember any talk of FR, just CLD. Also, from what I remember, Amex admitted to some financial profiling, but didn't confirm any specific stores on the profile. The customer surmised that it was his purchases at Walmart.

This was obviously during the height of the credit crunch. I wouldn't be too concerned about anything like this. Also, even if Amex is monitoring your purchases at discount retailers, it's surely part of a larger picture. Just walking into Walmart one day isn't going to result in AA.

Re: AMEX FR - income related?

bichonmom — Sun, 20 Nov 2011 19:04:24 GMT

This is really interesting! I didn't realize that they paid this kind of attention to *where* things are purchased. I guess if they see someone using a law firm, they might jump to the wrong conclusion. But I have a client who charges his atty fees for his biz on his biz CC and has never had a problem. But then again, it's not Amex.

At least I won't have to worry about WalMart if/when I get an Amex, since I just got the WalMart store card. But if Amex has a bias against WM, I wonder if they might be less likely to approve me for credit because of the WM CC on my CR.

I gather from these posts that income might not be a factor, or may be one factor among others.

Re: AMEX FR - income related?

Walt_K — Sun, 20 Nov 2011 19:15:59 GMT

@bichonmom wrote:
This is really interesting! I didn't realize that they paid this kind of attention to *where* things are purchased. I guess if they see someone using a law firm, they might jump to the wrong conclusion. But I have a client who charges his atty fees for his biz on his biz CC and has never had a problem. But then again, it's not Amex.

At least I won't have to worry about WalMart if/when I get an Amex, since I just got the WalMart store card. But if Amex has a bias against WM, I wonder if they might be less likely to approve me for credit because of the WM CC on my CR.

I gather from these posts that income might not be a factor, or may be one factor among others.

The point of my post was to highlight that Amex bias against Walmart is very much rumor. It was the customer who guessed that his purchases at Walmart were what caused the CLD. I don't think Amex has ever come out and said that they frown on Walmart shoppers. It would be odd for them to do so since Walmart is a ShopAmex partner.

Re: AMEX FR - income related?

bichonmom — Sun, 20 Nov 2011 19:18:51 GMT

Good to know, Walt.