topic Re: How many of your cards are SMART? in Credit Cards

How many of your cards are SMART?

Roarmeister — Sat, 18 Aug 2012 20:41:10 GMT

How many of your CCs are Smart as is "chip enabled" vs the simple magnetic strip?

Most card issuers available in Canada started converting about 3 or 4 years ago and use both the magnetic stripe and the smart chip. I have 6 CCs (1 business) and 1 bank card, all but one is chip enabled and the 5th one is due for a reissue soon. Most CC readers are also chip enabled, in fact people are forgetting how to use the simple stripe readers. I went to pay for a meal the other day and forgot the PIN number for my business card, so I told the gal to just use the conventional swipe method. The gal at the counter didn't even know how or couldn't remember, it's been so long since she's done it that way. I know - it is a PITA to have to remember yet another number or several but it is the wave of the future.

Some vendors are now even starting to refuse to use non-chip enabled cards. The link below shows that Europe is all chip enabled and those that don't have the EMV chip (EuroPay MasterCard Visa) maybe SOL when it comes to making payments. One wonders how many Americans in London for the Olympics found out the hard way?

http://www.bankrate.com/finance/video/credit-debt/traveling-without-emv-credit-card.aspx

http://www.foxbusiness.com/personal-finance/2011/10/20/us-credit-cards-add-chip-and-pin-security/

http://thefinancialbrand.com/24559/bofa-chip-credit-cards/

Re: How many of your cards are SMART?

Anonymous — Sat, 18 Aug 2012 22:12:39 GMT

I wish it were standard for US card issuers. I would love to have chips in ally cards. So far, the only ones I have that I have chips is my BofA Cash Rewards and my BofA Priveleges with Tracel Rewards.

Re: How many of your cards are SMART?

mmduluth — Sat, 18 Aug 2012 23:08:25 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
I wish it were standard for US card issuers. I would love to have chips in ally cards. So far, the only ones I have that I have chips is my BofA Cash Rewards and my BofA Priveleges with Tracel Rewards.

Yeah but if the U.S switched to chip & pin we would lose a whole lot of the great fraud protection we have today.

Re: How many of your cards are SMART?

mikka1 — Sat, 18 Aug 2012 23:32:01 GMT

@mmduluth wrote:

Yeah but if the U.S switched to chip & pin we would lose a whole lot of the great fraud protection we have today.

Well, first of all, don't dream of this happening overnight. I still spend a lot of time in Russia, where (probably because of proximity to Europe) some banks started to issue chip and pin cards many years ago already, but many other banks still issue stripe only cards.

Most of the stores have POS terminals that can process both types of cards (many of them now are three-types actually - magnetic stripe, EMV chip and contactless chip (paypass/paywave)), so in Russia it will be hard to find yourself unable to pay either with striped or EMV card.

Though even if this decision is made, you can reasonably expect another 4-5 or even more years of wide acceptance of "traditional" magnetic stripe cards. You can partially judge it by the spread of contactless terminals now - I think it's already more than a year from the time those contactless cards were first presented, but I can still rarely see those terminals anywhere (actually, the only one I often use my contactless cards at is at New York Penn Station, where you can buy NJ Transit tickets with contactless card).

The second thing is that I might not fully follow your logic, but based on my experience as a customer in Russia, where unfortunately credit card consumer protection law is far from its excellence and much worse than here in the US (actually, some cardholders are still being held liable for unauthorized charges due to fraud if they can't credibly prove that they were unable to perform the specific transaction for some obvious reasons), adding EMV chips to cards made them safer for consumers, at least for the reason that now they can not be easily copied. I might be wrong in details, but in general if a customer with EMV-chipped card disputes the 'card present' transaction, that has been processed using magnetic stripe (e.g. due to the old type of terminal installed at the store), the customer almost automatically 'wins' the dispute and the merchant is held liable for that charge (for not complying with the most advanced security standards).

Of course, one might think of other scenarios how the card might be compromised and used my unauthorized person, but I don't really see why this would necessary make the situation with consumer protection worse?

Re: How many of your cards are SMART?

compassion101 — Sun, 19 Aug 2012 02:43:59 GMT

I don't have any with chips in USA. I have a Canadian bank card that has a smart chip and it's nice to use, but I've never had a problem yet in Canada using my u.s. swipe cards.

Re: How many of your cards are SMART?

Anonymous — Sun, 19 Aug 2012 02:55:31 GMT

I have a chip in my BOA card, it serves no real purpose but looks cool.

Im also signed up for the tay to pay but i dont really like it. Pay wave and Pay pass are way better IMO

Re: How many of your cards are SMART?

Anonymous — Sun, 19 Aug 2012 03:33:15 GMT

My Cit Simplicity card has a chip. I called Citibank and asked for it, I think all Citi Mastercards can be chipped.

Re: How many of your cards are SMART?

CreditScholar — Sun, 19 Aug 2012 09:56:51 GMT

My debit mastercard does but it's issued by a foreign bank. None of my US-issued cards have any, although that will change in the near future.

Re: How many of your cards are SMART?

DaveSignal — Sun, 19 Aug 2012 10:30:38 GMT

I have two: BoA and SDFCU. These are the only cards I will be using for the next 3 years since I am in UK and swipe transactions always make things more difficult for the merchants.

Re: How many of your cards are SMART?

LS2982 — Sun, 19 Aug 2012 14:52:53 GMT

@Roarmeister wrote:
How many of your CCs are Smart as is "chip enabled" vs the simple magnetic strip?

Most card issuers available in Canada started converting about 3 or 4 years ago and use both the magnetic stripe and the smart chip. I have 6 CCs (1 business) and 1 bank card, all but one is chip enabled and the 5th one is due for a reissue soon. Most CC readers are also chip enabled, in fact people are forgetting how to use the simple stripe readers. I went to pay for a meal the other day and forgot the PIN number for my business card, so I told the gal to just use the conventional swipe method. The gal at the counter didn't even know how or couldn't remember, it's been so long since she's done it that way. I know - it is a PITA to have to remember yet another number or several but it is the wave of the future.

Some vendors are now even starting to refuse to use non-chip enabled cards. The link below shows that Europe is all chip enabled and those that don't have the EMV chip (EuroPay MasterCard Visa) maybe SOL when it comes to making payments. One wonders how many Americans in London for the Olympics found out the hard way?

http://www.bankrate.com/finance/video/credit-debt/traveling-without-emv-credit-card.aspx
http://www.foxbusiness.com/personal-finance/2011/10/20/us-credit-cards-add-chip-and-pin-security/
http://thefinancialbrand.com/24559/bofa-chip-credit-cards/

None of mine are

Re: How many of your cards are SMART?

Open123 — Sun, 19 Aug 2012 15:11:13 GMT

Only one I have is HSBC. I hate using it with the pin, and only do so when I don't have a choice and only in very small amounts.

When given a choice, I prefer using a magnetic strip. During fraud disputes, merchants must procure documentation proving I used the card, while with a "chip and pin," the onus of proof is on me to proove my pin # has been compromised. Give up that kind of consumer protection? No thanks!

Now, chip and sign, and I'm all for it.

Re: How many of your cards are SMART?

jamesdwi — Sun, 19 Aug 2012 15:37:28 GMT

all my cards are dumb they just sit in my pocket chanting buy, buy, buy, buy, buy over and over again.

Re: How many of your cards are SMART?

Ron1 — Sun, 19 Aug 2012 16:49:32 GMT

I have Diners Club and Citi Dividend Elite Mastercard with EMV Card. I requested one from BofA Travel Rewards a month ago and I haven't gotten yet.

Ron.

Re: How many of your cards are SMART?

xiownthisplacex — Sun, 19 Aug 2012 17:05:00 GMT

JPMorgan Select, although I haven't received it yet

Re: How many of your cards are SMART?

Roarmeister — Sun, 19 Aug 2012 17:28:30 GMT

"During fraud disputes" - you are assuming that the rate of fraud abuse is similar. That couldn't be farther from the truth. The chip generates a code each and every time it is used while a magnetic strip has a single code. Magnetic strip cards are blatantly easy to copy whereas the chips are not. Secondly, the chips eliminate the possibility of "skimmer" devices inserted into ATMs and POS machines to copy your card in the first place.

You propose a situation where you are using your own card legally -- where then are the incidents of fraud? I don't understand your "logic" at all. Why would you have to prove you are using your own card correctly? "Give up that kind of consumer protection? No thanks!" - What consumer protection, you have no more no less if you are using your own card legally?

You would rather use chip and sign vs.. PIN? OK, but make sure you sign your cards first and 2ndly make sure that your signature isn't a forgery or 3rd that the clerk even looks at the signatures. I do like the idea of a 2 step process (chip and PIN) to verify the usage though. It's a mental thing where if it takes extra effort to pay by CC, then I must really want to use the CC in the transaction.

The only thing a chip doesn't protect you from when it is used for online purchases or other times when a physical card is not required at all. No type of physical encryption whether it be chip or mag strip will help you there. In any case BOTH are better than the old mechanical imprint machines because the carbons can be stolen and the numbers used for online purchases.

Re: How many of your cards are SMART?

Roarmeister — Sun, 19 Aug 2012 17:53:59 GMT

I have Pay Wave on one of my cards. I haven't used it yet. But I am curious as to how close you have to be to the reader in order for it to sense your card? Could you accidentally pay for something you didn't want to if you had your card in your front pockets?

OK, I just googled the PayWave. It it meant for purchases under $50 in the first place, which I didn't know. Probably useful for my next Subway sandwich purchase.

PS. I also have another type of card -- its a low amount debit card used by Tim Horton's. I have it set to autoload to a preset amount. So after a few coffee breaks, it reloads from my CC.

Re: How many of your cards are SMART?

Open123 — Sun, 19 Aug 2012 17:53:48 GMT

@Roarmeister wrote:

You propose a situation where you are using your own card legally -- where then are the incidents of fraud? I don't understand your "logic" at all. Why would you have to prove you are using your own card correctly? "Give up that kind of consumer protection? No thanks!" - What consumer protection, you have no more no less if you are using your own card legally?

Until current laws in the US keep up with technological advances, I'm not ready to adopt any new method of payment where the onus of proof becomes mine.

For example, let's say while using my card, my pin # becomes compromised--through a security breach on my phone, computer, overheard, or hidden camera--I'd have to prove my secret pin # wasn't entered by me, unlike with a signature.

Are you suggesting it is impossible to duplicate an EMV card? What if I'm the first victim of card duplication with compromised pin? Unless I'm able to prove my pin was compromised, am I supposed to pay for the fraudulent charges first? How does that work?

With signature cards, we have ample precedent and clearly defined laws stipulating fraud must be proven before I'm responsible. Such as, they need to verify the signature on the card, have the receipt with said signature, etc...

PS - I'd have no qualms with EMV + signature, so long as consumer rights aren't compromised. I will never agree to using a pin # predominantly, until our current laws reflect the new technology.

Re: How many of your cards are SMART?

Roarmeister — Sun, 19 Aug 2012 18:05:50 GMT

EMV protection on cards can be bypassed but it isn't nearly as easy as a magnetic stripe. Hence the second step of the combination with a PIN which adds additional security. When I read your message, for some reason I was assuming you were against the EMV altogether but instead are only against the PIN as a confirmation feature.

Well, OK, I can sort of see where you are coming from. But at the same time the incidence level of fraud with an EMV chip is so much lower in the first place that I don't really see an issue with chip and PIN at all. In my books I am a 1000x safer than the older technologies. Someone would have to watch me enter the codes and then steal my wallet afterwards to make use of the card. And by then I could contact the issuer and cancel the card.

I suppose the next step in security would be to use the chip and biological confirmation via fingerprint or iris reader!

Re: How many of your cards are SMART?

Anonymous — Sun, 19 Aug 2012 18:34:16 GMT

I'd like to convert my debit card if that were actually an option. I'm actually looking @ PC for my BOA Gold to BOA Travel Rewards for the Non Foreign Trans fee and chip, but I'm not liking the AF. So, that leaves me with one - JPM Select.

Re: How many of your cards are SMART?

DaveSignal — Sun, 19 Aug 2012 19:51:34 GMT

I would prefer my EMV cards to be chip + pin only and offer no default signature option. It is a pain in the ass every time I insert my chip card, apologize to the merchant that it defaults to chip + signature, merchant has to walk away and look for a pen, i sign the first reciept, i present the back of my card so merchant can verify the signature, a second receipt prints that is my copy, and the people in line behind me wish they weren't there waiting for some foreigner at that particular moment.