topic Re: AMEX 61 Day CLI....... Denied! in Credit Cards

AMEX 61 Day CLI....... Denied!

Anonymous — Wed, 19 Jun 2013 00:44:19 GMT

First a quick back story: I had some credit trouble in my late teens/early 20's. I found this forum, learned a lot, and did what I could to repair my credit. After that I came to the conclusion only time would help. I may have taken that a little too far, and waited too long, at the beginning of this year I didn't have a credit score. There was nothing on my credit report, good or bad.

In February I decided on a whim to apply for a credit card from Wells Fargo(who I bank with) and was instantly approved for a Visa with a $1500 CL. Bolstered by this approval I then applied for an AMEX green charge card and a Walmart Card. I was denied for both. The reason AMEX gave; no credit score from Experian. In March my Wells Fargo visa was reporting and I was generating a score from Experian ( a FAKO from experian.com at least). I called up AMEX gave the case #/ tracking # or whatever they called the number given on my denial letter from Feb. I explained my situation to the CSR (side note;'the CSR was obviously from India but spoke the queens English perfectly and was able to give me knowledgable and unscripted answers to all my questions, A+ customer service), he encouraged me to reapply for the green card. I did and after some address verification I was approved. Bolstered again by this approval I decided to apply for the Delta Gold Skymiles card and was approved with a $1000 CL.

With my gold card was a letter from AMEX that listed my Experian score as 696 on 3/11/13.

Fast forward to May 14 and I was ready to apply for my 61 day CLI. After reading a bunch of posts I came up with a hypothesis that people have an unfounded fear of AMEX and try and make their report squeaky clean before asking for what seems like almost a formality(61 day 3x CLI). In the 61 day window I applied for a Discover IT card and I ran the AMEX card up to about 90% utilization and then paid it down to just under 50% before requesting the CLI.

I was denied and received a letter a few days later. Under reason(s) for our decision: "The length of time you have been a customer with American Express is too short." Ok, my accounts are back dated to 2000 and why would you offer a CLI after only 61 days if that wasn't sufficient time? And "The average of your payments in relation to the balance on your American Express account(s)." Ah Ha! This seems like the real reason! They also included an Experian score on 746 from 4/20/13.

So, I have to revise my hypothesis a little. Be afraid of AMEX, be very afraid! Not really, but in all seriousness we can infer some things from my little experiment.

As others have said for a long time, AMEX looks beyond your credit score. My score jumped 50 points from 3/11 to 4/20 and they still denied me and didn't bother to repull my scores on 5/14. I thought about calling to recon but decided against it as I don't need the credit and only have to wait 90 days to try again.

I don't know if this is worthy of its own thread or should have been tacked onto the "61 day 3x CLI" thread but I thought it was a unique enough situation I didn't want it lost in a mega thread.

Re: AMEX 61 Day CLI....... Denied!

Anonymous — Wed, 19 Jun 2013 01:22:25 GMT

Amex doesn't really like people to carry a balance so I think your util was to high. Also, at any time you can call them and verify the date you are eligible for a CLI. And of course there is always this thread for info: http://ficoforums.myfico.com/t5/Credit-Cards/The-Definitive-Amex-3X-CLI-Guide/td-p/1811071.

Re: AMEX 61 Day CLI....... Denied!

E150GT — Wed, 19 Jun 2013 01:28:39 GMT

yep. Thats why I am making sure my report is nice and clean for next months 61 day request.

Re: AMEX 61 Day CLI....... Denied!

improvingmycredit — Wed, 19 Jun 2013 01:43:47 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
First a quick back story: I had some credit trouble in my late teens/early 20's. I found this forum, learned a lot, and did what I could to repair my credit. After that I came to the conclusion only time would help. I may have taken that a little too far, and waited too long, at the beginning of this year I didn't have a credit score. There was nothing on my credit report, good or bad.

In February I decided on a whim to apply for a credit card from Wells Fargo(who I bank with) and was instantly approved for a Visa with a $1500 CL. Bolstered by this approval I then applied for an AMEX green charge card and a Walmart Card. I was denied for both. The reason AMEX gave; no credit score from Experian. In March my Wells Fargo visa was reporting and I was generating a score from Experian ( a FAKO from experian.com at least). I called up AMEX gave the case #/ tracking # or whatever they called the number given on my denial letter from Feb. I explained my situation to the CSR (side note;'the CSR was obviously from India but spoke the queens English perfectly and was able to give me knowledgable and unscripted answers to all my questions, A+ customer service), he encouraged me to reapply for the green card. I did and after some address verification I was approved. Bolstered again by this approval I decided to apply for the Delta Gold Skymiles card and was approved with a $1000 CL.

With my gold card was a letter from AMEX that listed my Experian score as 696 on 3/11/13.

Fast forward to May 14 and I was ready to apply for my 61 day CLI. After reading a bunch of posts I came up with a hypothesis that people have an unfounded fear of AMEX and try and make their report squeaky clean before asking for what seems like almost a formality(61 day 3x CLI). In the 61 day window I applied for a Discover IT card and I ran the AMEX card up to about 90% utilization and then paid it down to just under 50% before requesting the CLI.

I was denied and received a letter a few days later. Under reason(s) for our decision: "The length of time you have been a customer with American Express is too short." Ok, my accounts are back dated to 2000 and why would you offer a CLI after only 61 days if that wasn't sufficient time? And "The average of your payments in relation to the balance on your American Express account(s)." Ah Ha! This seems like the real reason! They also included an Experian score on 746 from 4/20/13.

Hey VegasKyle!

When did you apply for the 61 day CLI? Did you apply 61 days from approval or 61 days from card acitvation. I'm not sure on your dates, but it looks to me like you were denied because you haven't yet hit the 61 day threshold. Did you call Customer Support and ask what day your account will hit 61 days? Might want to give that a try. I suspect (I'm only guessing here) that if you wait a few more days... you might be eligible to apply if this is the reason. The 61 days starts at card acitvation not approval date.

Hope this helps. Hope I'm right on this and you can still get that increase if you are eligible.

After re-reading... maybe I'm wrong. But the good thing is... you are eligible to apply again at the 90 mark of a CLI denial. good luck!

Re: AMEX 61 Day CLI....... Denied!

Anonymous — Wed, 19 Jun 2013 01:47:36 GMT

61+ days from approval, March 11 to May 14. I think I called and verified the dates.

It isn't 61 days from activation is it? I was out of town when the cards came and didn't activate them for a couple weeks.

Re: AMEX 61 Day CLI....... Denied!

improvingmycredit — Wed, 19 Jun 2013 01:49:59 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
61+ days from approval, March 11 to May 14. I think I called and verified the dates.

It isn't 61 days from activation is it? I was out of town when the cards came and didn't activate them for a couple weeks.

Yes.. it's 61 days from activation. When I called to verify for my first 61 day CLI... the CSR told me the date I was eligible and it was from acitvation date.

Re: AMEX 61 Day CLI....... Denied!

Anonymous — Wed, 19 Jun 2013 01:59:09 GMT

Humm.....

Calling AMEX now....

Edit: Amex CSR told me its 61 days from approval not activation.

Re: AMEX 61 Day CLI....... Denied!

Anonymous — Wed, 19 Jun 2013 02:23:21 GMT

And the next one you call will tell you different. I just asked them for the date I was eligible.

Re: AMEX 61 Day CLI....... Denied!

adavis425 — Wed, 19 Jun 2013 04:54:37 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
Amex doesn't really like people to carry a balance so I think your util was to high. Also, at any time you can call them and verify the date you are eligible for a CLI. And of course there is always this thread for info: http://ficoforums.myfico.com/t5/Credit-Cards/The-Definitive-Amex-3X-CLI-Guide/td-p/1811071.

Not to hijack the thread, but I'm not really certain where this misconception got its start. Why would AmEx offer a revolving credit account and expect no one to carry a balance? I've carried a balance with AmEx on both charge and credit cards with absolutely no AA and got instant approval on my 3x cli. I would really like to know the science behind these statements. Has anyone had any sort of AA directly related to carrying a balance on an AmEx charge or credit card?

Re: AMEX 61 Day CLI....... Denied!

scottwagnon — Wed, 19 Jun 2013 05:03:29 GMT

yep, me too for my clear; i haven't been granted a single cli from amex since july 2011. and it is always exactly the same reason too. "the amout of debt with other creditors and with us in relation to your income" its always exactly the same reason. never mind i can always get approved for charges well above my credit limit with them.

my clear is 5k, and i asked for a 1.5k increase to 6.5k; declined.

two minutes later i check to see if i could be approved to charge 6.6k on my clear, approved.... go figure.

Re: AMEX 61 Day CLI....... Denied!

JaeJae12 — Wed, 19 Jun 2013 09:53:57 GMT

I think Amex hates balances and how much you use on all your cards total... Remember Amex sp your CR monthly..

Re: AMEX 61 Day CLI....... Denied!

MeridianRN — Wed, 19 Jun 2013 13:12:02 GMT

I just requested and was approved for a $6,000 cli from Amex with a balance on my BCE and a balance reporting on my Discover IT. I was at day 63ish when I put in my request. Went from $9,000 to $15,000. I think I'm the only person here who didn't want the 3x cli.

Re: AMEX 61 Day CLI....... Denied!

JaeJae12 — Wed, 19 Jun 2013 14:09:43 GMT

I was approved for my amex 3x cli tody to 6000 as well... But i had 0 balances reporting on all cards. Perhaps amex looks at overall debt owed on amex, and then on all cards?... when i had used my amex during the 2 months before the 61day cli.. i used less than 100.. but i had used alot more on my freedom.. but my overall debt was still at 4%

Re: AMEX 61 Day CLI....... Denied!

Anonymous — Wed, 19 Jun 2013 16:02:45 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
First a quick back story: I had some credit trouble in my late teens/early 20's. I found this forum, learned a lot, and did what I could to repair my credit. After that I came to the conclusion only time would help. I may have taken that a little too far, and waited too long, at the beginning of this year I didn't have a credit score. There was nothing on my credit report, good or bad.

In February I decided on a whim to apply for a credit card from Wells Fargo(who I bank with) and was instantly approved for a Visa with a $1500 CL. Bolstered by this approval I then applied for an AMEX green charge card and a Walmart Card. I was denied for both. The reason AMEX gave; no credit score from Experian. In March my Wells Fargo visa was reporting and I was generating a score from Experian ( a FAKO from experian.com at least). I called up AMEX gave the case #/ tracking # or whatever they called the number given on my denial letter from Feb. I explained my situation to the CSR (side note;'the CSR was obviously from India but spoke the queens English perfectly and was able to give me knowledgable and unscripted answers to all my questions, A+ customer service), he encouraged me to reapply for the green card. I did and after some address verification I was approved. Bolstered again by this approval I decided to apply for the Delta Gold Skymiles card and was approved with a $1000 CL.

With my gold card was a letter from AMEX that listed my Experian score as 696 on 3/11/13.

Fast forward to May 14 and I was ready to apply for my 61 day CLI. After reading a bunch of posts I came up with a hypothesis that people have an unfounded fear of AMEX and try and make their report squeaky clean before asking for what seems like almost a formality(61 day 3x CLI). In the 61 day window I applied for a Discover IT card and I ran the AMEX card up to about 90% utilization and then paid it down to just under 50% before requesting the CLI.

I was denied and received a letter a few days later. Under reason(s) for our decision: "The length of time you have been a customer with American Express is too short." Ok, my accounts are back dated to 2000 and why would you offer a CLI after only 61 days if that wasn't sufficient time? And "The average of your payments in relation to the balance on your American Express account(s)." Ah Ha! This seems like the real reason! They also included an Experian score on 746 from 4/20/13.

So, I have to revise my hypothesis a little. Be afraid of AMEX, be very afraid! Not really, but in all seriousness we can infer some things from my little experiment.

As others have said for a long time, AMEX looks beyond your credit score. My score jumped 50 points from 3/11 to 4/20 and they still denied me and didn't bother to repull my scores on 5/14. I thought about calling to recon but decided against it as I don't need the credit and only have to wait 90 days to try again.

I don't know if this is worthy of its own thread or should have been tacked onto the "61 day 3x CLI" thread but I thought it was a unique enough situation I didn't want it lost in a mega thread.

Sorry for the denial!

Re: AMEX 61 Day CLI....... Denied!

Revelate — Wed, 19 Jun 2013 16:47:32 GMT

@adavis425 wrote:
@Anonymous wrote:
Amex doesn't really like people to carry a balance so I think your util was to high. Also, at any time you can call them and verify the date you are eligible for a CLI. And of course there is always this thread for info: http://ficoforums.myfico.com/t5/Credit-Cards/The-Definitive-Amex-3X-CLI-Guide/td-p/1811071.
Not to hijack the thread, but I'm not really certain where this misconception got its start. Why would AmEx offer a revolving credit account and expect no one to carry a balance? I've carried a balance with AmEx on both charge and credit cards with absolutely no AA and got instant approval on my 3x cli. I would really like to know the science behind these statements. Has anyone had any sort of AA directly related to carrying a balance on an AmEx charge or credit card?

I'm not certain it's a misconception. The number of folks who've received denials from Amex for carrying balances dwarfs the number of folks who suggest it is no big deal. That sort of overwhelming anecdotal experience tends to lead to a reasonable conclusion.

Also Amex historically was charge cards only, until recently there was no way to carry a balance beyond 1 month without penalties. Given that these policies have historically left Amex with the lowest default rate in the industry, it's hard at least for me to imagine they'd change gears and on that front.

I agree it's not set in stone, and it's something that could literally change at any time without our knowledge, but I don't think it's a total misconception: anecdotally we know Amex has a strong distate for balance carrying unlike Citi where they appear to strongly desire it. Most other lenders fall in between the two.

Re: AMEX 61 Day CLI....... Denied!

HiLine — Wed, 19 Jun 2013 16:52:50 GMT

+1 for Revelate

Re: AMEX 61 Day CLI....... Denied!

lhcole77 — Thu, 20 Jun 2013 00:15:42 GMT

adavis425 wrote:

+100

This is from my AMEX account online:

"Flexibility to carry a balance: Your card gives you the option to carry a balance, whether you're managing your monthly cash flow or making a large purchase..."

They don't mind if we carry balances. Too high of a UTL with too little of repayment (e.g. only paying minimum each month) is what will raise a red flag.

Credit card companies make $$$ from interest and AMEX is no exception.

Re: AMEX 61 Day CLI....... Denied!

Revelate — Thu, 20 Jun 2013 08:39:17 GMT

@lhcole77 wrote:
@adavis425

Not to hijack the thread, but I'm not really certain where this misconception got its start. Why would AmEx offer a revolving credit account and expect no one to carry a balance? I've carried a balance with AmEx on both charge and credit cards with absolutely no AA and got instant approval on my 3x cli. I would really like to know the science behind these statements. Has anyone had any sort of AA directly related to carrying a balance on an AmEx charge or credit card?

+100

This is from my AMEX account online:

"Flexibility to carry a balance: Your card gives you the option to carry a balance, whether you're managing your monthly cash flow or making a large purchase..."

They don't mind if we carry balances. Too high of a UTL with too little of repayment (e.g. only paying minimum each month) is what will raise a red flag.

Credit card companies make $$$ from interest and AMEX is no exception.

Just because they make interest doesn't mean they like their customers doing it. Interest makes up a fraction of Amex's revenue, unlike Citi. Also what you post is pure marketing, not necessarily Amex's actual stance on the matter .

Banks will happily let you do cash advances, overdraw your account, and bounce checks as these turn a nice tidy profit for them, but I think it's fair to say their internal risk metrics suggest these are all suboptimal things for their customers to do, and lead to worse situations where the banks actually lose money.

Amex is no different in that regard, much like FICO isn't just about risk, lenders aren't just about profit: risk + profit go hand in hand, too much of one, likely leads to unacceptable levels in the other.

Re: AMEX 61 Day CLI....... Denied!

lg8302ch — Thu, 20 Jun 2013 09:06:26 GMT

@MeridianRN wrote:
I just requested and was approved for a $6,000 cli from Amex with a balance on my BCE and a balance reporting on my Discover IT. I was at day 63ish when I put in my request. Went from $9,000 to $15,000. I think I'm the only person here who didn't want the 3x cli.

oh..no..not only you. I chickened when it came to 3 x CLI. At that stage 02/13 my highest limit was 5K so I thought I might get 10K at best and asked for 2 x CLI. Not so sure if I will test my waters after 180 days and try for 20K or just 15K...have some time to figure this out but I might chicken again..ha ha..

Re: AMEX 61 Day CLI....... Denied!

ReaLiLJ — Thu, 20 Jun 2013 11:24:21 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:

Fast forward to May 14 and I was ready to apply for my 61 day CLI. After reading a bunch of posts I came up with a hypothesis that people have an unfounded fear of AMEX and try and make their report squeaky clean before asking for what seems like almost a formality(61 day 3x CLI). In the 61 day window I applied for a Discover IT card and --

***********I ran the AMEX card up to about 90% utilization and then paid it down to just under 50% before requesting the CLI.***************** +1 --

I was denied and received a letter a few days later. Under reason(s) for our decision: "The average of your payments in relation to the balance on your American Express account(s)." Ah Ha! This seems like the real reason! +2

"So, I have to revise my hypothesis a little. Be afraid of AMEX, be very afraid! Not really, but in all seriousness we can infer some things from my little experiment." +3 Thanks for posting this, it helps out my mini project a lot.

So from what I learned, and the advice I give to people when applying for CLI's and cards with amex is

1. amex dislikes that crazy spree of apps right before you apply
2. I notice whenever I call in reps are excited to serve me, and whenever I call in to make a payment (on recently made large purchases, they are even more excited to take that payment) Don't worry this has nothing to do with my next explanation.

In my recent post I stated:

"Because they indeed do soft checks every month on your accounts, so make sure after your first statement, you order a report then dispute your report online, go to inquiries, and under amex account, and amex inquiries (not hard pulls) check when they check it, and make sure your accounts are in **low utilization**/you don't have any ***crazy outstanding balances**** on the day they check, so that when you do ask for that increase your risk level is lower (since your risk level is based off that last soft pull that, they give every month); and *I don't think you have to pay your account off before you ask for the request*, **********but I would do so if your credit history is limited like mines/ just to be safe************, but I know you don't have to! -LJ "

But anyways, I gave kudos points for this post because it would appear my opinion on amex is gaining more validity and strength:
Because to me like someone stated earlier in this thread: amex started from charge cards and moved on to revolvers, so I feel as if the people who they increase their relationship with/the people they want to be generous to with crazy limits, and who they give multiple cards to with **crazy limits** are the people who pay in full each month even if they spend x amount of dollars (only feel spending high should be done when wanting to increase to a very high limit, usually when its 2x or 3x CLI that gets very close to limit that is higher then 1-2/3 of your income you reported).

That doesn't mean you have to, as you should be able to carry a balance with their revolver cards, I just feel as if they have those soft pulls in place for a reason and even if you have good credit if your spending your full limit with them and only paying the minimum they might not close you out, but I do feel as if they will give/assign you a very high risk level which in turns increases their motivation to lower your limit to whatever your charging, and/or stop you from gaining credit limit increases/high credit increases.

Where as if your paying in full most of the time your with them it is keeping your profile in that low risk level which in turns increases their motivation to give you higher limits (even if your income doesn't support it) and even if (other lenders are not that hesitant hence the 3x CLI rule). Because to me amex started from the charge card and since they built such a big community on those standards, doesn't mean their going to change just because they made a revolver community as an ***exception***

Which is why I believe that paying in full is the way to go especially when your ready to do a PC, CLI, 3x CLI, and when your ready to apply for a higher ranked card, when your barely meeting the requirements or at least showing that pattern and being consistent when your ready to do so. I.e.. (When your ready to do your second 3x CLI even if you were paying the minimum for the past 3 months, I feel as if for the next six months if you charge big purchases then pay them off in the full for the course of those 6 months, you prove yourself as being a pay in full customer and move into that low risk, and have a higher chance of approval since you showed that pattern and did it consistently for the time it takes to show a lender that you have managed credit responsibly) and I also feel that they give you those 61 days for a reason, to test you to see if your a high roller, or a low spender and to see your paying pattern i.e.. If your a minimum payer consumer, pay in full consumer, all over the place consumer (pay big one time, pay minimum 2 times, pay big another) etc. I say this because when I tested this out (spent the 3500+ and paid it off in those 2 months they gave me and asked for the Cyclic) they approved me because I showed that I could spend the high limit, and pay it off in full within that period of time, where as other people on the forums when amex gave them a limit, they used a big amount and paid it down to 50% 40% 30% 20% and when they applied they either got denied or countered offered with a little more over of what they charged i.e.. If they charged 1800 and had a 3,000 limit and had a low to mid util. when they applied they were countered with 4500 or just got flat out denied. But I'm new and I only have been reading through a couple of denials/counter offers/ and approved 3x CLI but from the trend I've been seeing for the most part it usually happens because of these factors. It just seems to me that amex frowns upon being generous to customers who either let their card sit in the drawer for the longest, and only use them for that high limit to report, and on customers who don't pay in full.

Bottom Line: This could all be speculation, but then again it could be some truths in this it just all depends. But only time and when more results come in is when the real facts behind all of this will show; but I just feel amex is more attracted to pay in full customers and will be generous with CLI with pay in full customers and by spending and paying in full is the way to go if you want to have high amex limits and multiple cards. For me I just want to be grandfathered in so when I do turn into that minimum payment person they will respect what I did in the past, and not close me out and lower my limits, as our relationship will be too strong for all of that But sorry to hear about your denial, and hopefully you get 3x CLI soon! #Cheers -LJ