topic Re: REALLY? "You may include somebody else's income"?! in Credit Cards

REALLY? "You may include somebody else's income"?!

Anonymous — Fri, 07 Mar 2014 02:03:12 GMT

So I was browsing the capital one and citi cards that I was pre-qualified for and I thought this was strange when it asked about annual income:

Capital One: "You may include personal income, which is income you have earned, including full-time, part-time, or seasonal jobs, self-employment, interest or dividends, retirement, and public assistance. You may also include shared income, which is money from somebody else that is regularly deposited into your individual account or into a joint account that person shares with you. If you are over 21, you may also include somebody else's income that is regularly used to pay your expenses. "

Citi: "If you are 21 or older, you may include salary and wages that you can reasonably access to pay your bills."

First question: Is this a new thing or has this always been like this for capital one and citi.

Second: Could I actually rely on this statement and not get in trouble. My income isn't high right now because I'm a student, but my father supports me financially with his income as well. Would I be able to put BOTH our incomes down? It just makes me feel really strange, like I wouldn't want to list ALL of his income as accessible but I know with my income alone I would probably get a low limit.

Any thoughts? Or has anyone had any problems when including someone elses income when it CLEARLY states its okay?

Re: REALLY? "You may include somebody else's income"?!

gdale6 — Fri, 07 Mar 2014 02:32:20 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
So I was browsing the capital one and citi cards that I was pre-qualified for and I thought this was strange when it asked about annual income:

Capital One: "You may include personal income, which is income you have earned, including full-time, part-time, or seasonal jobs, self-employment, interest or dividends, retirement, and public assistance. You may also include shared income, which is money from somebody else that is regularly deposited into your individual account or into a joint account that person shares with you. If you are over 21, you may also include somebody else's income that is regularly used to pay your expenses. "

Citi: "If you are 21 or older, you may include salary and wages that you can reasonably access to pay your bills."

First question: Is this a new thing or has this always been like this for capital one and citi.

Second: Could I actually rely on this statement and not get in trouble. My income isn't high right now because I'm a student, but my father supports me financially with his income as well. Would I be able to put BOTH our incomes down? It just makes me feel really strange, like I wouldn't want to list ALL of his income as accessible but I know with my income alone I would probably get a low limit.

Any thoughts? Or has anyone had any problems when including someone elses income when it CLEARLY states its okay?

The 21 yr old stuff came into existence with the Card act of 2010. I would not put down your dads income unless he is helping you pay the CC bills.

Re: REALLY? "You may include somebody else's income"?!

Anonymous — Fri, 07 Mar 2014 02:42:00 GMT

Hmm thanks for the info!

Thing is right now he is paying for at least some of my credit cards and giving me support until I graduate (I already have a job lined up). I do feel sketchy putting all of it down, but if he has given me for instance like 5,000 in support for me to use for car payments, credit card payments, etc. Would I be justified in including that?

I'm not really looking to get any new cards right now, but I wanted to know if this was a legitimate source for future reference.

Re: REALLY? "You may include somebody else's income"?!

CreditScholar — Fri, 07 Mar 2014 02:54:20 GMT

The change was mostly intended to accomodate stay at home spouses who had no income of their own.

With the changes that were phased in several years ago, people were only allowed to put down their own personal income and as such, there was a huge backlash from housewives and househusbands. Since they had no earning power on their own, they were essentially shut out of credit. That 21 year old clause was implemented as an attempt to rectify that situation, although I don't think it was meant for adult kids to use their parents income.

Re: REALLY? "You may include somebody else's income"?!

Anonymous — Fri, 07 Mar 2014 03:02:45 GMT

haha thanks, very interesting! you can definitely see how that clause can be abused though! It seems much too generic of a line. Just to be safe though I'm not going to apply for anything till I can start making some real money on my own I'm getting restless even though I am done in 2 months!! woohoo

I do wonder what an analyst would say if someone did mis-understand the intention of the clause.

Re: REALLY? "You may include somebody else's income"?!

CreditScholar — Fri, 07 Mar 2014 03:14:33 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
haha thanks, very interesting! you can definitely see how that clause can be abused though! It seems much too generic of a line. Just to be safe though I'm not going to apply for anything till I can start making some real money on my own I'm getting restless even though I am done in 2 months!! woohoo

I do wonder what an analyst would say if someone did mis-understand the intention of the clause.

They would probably AA they account.

Re: REALLY? "You may include somebody else's income"?!

gdale6 — Fri, 07 Mar 2014 03:17:53 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
Hmm thanks for the info!
Thing is right now he is paying for at least some of my credit cards and giving me support until I graduate (I already have a job lined up). I do feel sketchy putting all of it down, but if he has given me for instance like 5,000 in support for me to use for car payments, credit card payments, etc. Would I be justified in including that?

I'm not really looking to get any new cards right now, but I wanted to know if this was a legitimate source for future reference.

put the 5K as added income as it is cash you are receiving.

Re: REALLY? "You may include somebody else's income"?!

NikoD — Fri, 07 Mar 2014 03:39:43 GMT

Interesting, I live with my brother so I can take care of his kids. He pays for many of my expenses outright and also gives me cash. I would never try to claim his entire income as my own but it sounds like I'm allowed to add the money he gives me as added income? A lot of the stuff I charge on my credit cards are household/childcare related stuff that he pays me back for also.

Re: REALLY? "You may include somebody else's income"?!

CreditScholar — Fri, 07 Mar 2014 03:49:18 GMT

@NikoD wrote:
Interesting, I live with my brother so I can take care of his kids. He pays for many of my expenses outright and also gives me cash. I would never try to claim his entire income as my own but it sounds like I'm allowed to add the money he gives me as added income? A lot of the stuff I charge on my credit cards are household/childcare related stuff that he pays me back for also.

The issue here would be if you're ever required to submit proof of income via 4506-T, paystubs, etc.

If you're ever hit with something like a FR, you might run into trouble if the difference between your declared income vs. what you can prove is too high.

Re: REALLY? "You may include somebody else's income"?!

pipeguy — Fri, 07 Mar 2014 04:13:55 GMT

This veribage reflects a new CFPB rule :

http://www.consumerfinance.gov/newsroom/the-cfpb-amends-card-act-rule-to-make-it-easier-for-stay-at-home-spouses-and-partners-to-get-credit-cards/

Specifically for stay at home spouces (et al), but it also allows for joint income or "household income" which is how it used to be before the CARD Act..

Re: REALLY? "You may include somebody else's income"?!

wHiTeSoL — Fri, 07 Mar 2014 04:27:01 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
So I was browsing the capital one and citi cards that I was pre-qualified for and I thought this was strange when it asked about annual income:

Capital One: "You may include personal income, which is income you have earned, including full-time, part-time, or seasonal jobs, self-employment, interest or dividends, retirement, and public assistance. You may also include shared income, which is money from somebody else that is regularly deposited into your individual account or into a joint account that person shares with you. If you are over 21, you may also include somebody else's income that is regularly used to pay your expenses. "

Citi: "If you are 21 or older, you may include salary and wages that you can reasonably access to pay your bills."

First question: Is this a new thing or has this always been like this for capital one and citi.

Second: Could I actually rely on this statement and not get in trouble. My income isn't high right now because I'm a student, but my father supports me financially with his income as well. Would I be able to put BOTH our incomes down? It just makes me feel really strange, like I wouldn't want to list ALL of his income as accessible but I know with my income alone I would probably get a low limit.

Any thoughts? Or has anyone had any problems when including someone elses income when it CLEARLY states its okay?

The clause in red was to prevent 18-21 year olds from claimg their entire parent's incomes as their own (I have seen this happen may times in the past where an 18 year old would claim 100k+ and the lender has no idea it isn't thiers) i think the spirit also applies to your situation. You may have access to some part of it (i.e your dad may pay some of your bills for you) but you don't have reasonable access to all of it (you can walk into a bank and withdraw it whenever you wanted)

Re: REALLY? "You may include somebody else's income"?!

CreditScholar — Fri, 07 Mar 2014 04:58:49 GMT

@wHiTeSoL wrote:
@Anonymous wrote:
So I was browsing the capital one and citi cards that I was pre-qualified for and I thought this was strange when it asked about annual income:

Capital One: "You may include personal income, which is income you have earned, including full-time, part-time, or seasonal jobs, self-employment, interest or dividends, retirement, and public assistance. You may also include shared income, which is money from somebody else that is regularly deposited into your individual account or into a joint account that person shares with you. If you are over 21, you may also include somebody else's income that is regularly used to pay your expenses. "

Citi: "If you are 21 or older, you may include salary and wages that you can reasonably access to pay your bills."

First question: Is this a new thing or has this always been like this for capital one and citi.

Second: Could I actually rely on this statement and not get in trouble. My income isn't high right now because I'm a student, but my father supports me financially with his income as well. Would I be able to put BOTH our incomes down? It just makes me feel really strange, like I wouldn't want to list ALL of his income as accessible but I know with my income alone I would probably get a low limit.

Any thoughts? Or has anyone had any problems when including someone elses income when it CLEARLY states its okay?
The clause in red was to prevent 18-21 year olds from claimg their entire parent's incomes as their own (I have seen this happen may times in the past where an 18 year old would claim 100k+ and the lender has no idea it isn't thiers) i think the spirit also applies to your situation. You may have access to some part of it (i.e your dad may pay some of your bills for you) but you don't have reasonable access to all of it (you can walk into a bank and withdraw it whenever you wanted)

+1. For spouses, it was assumed that many would be filing jointly, some may live in community property states, etc. In terms of "sharing" or having access to the income, they'd have a much stronger claim to fulfill the spirit of that clause than a 20-something adult child still living at home.

Re: REALLY? "You may include somebody else's income"?!

Open123 — Fri, 07 Mar 2014 05:12:14 GMT

@CreditScholar wrote:
+1. For spouses, it was assumed that many would be filing jointly, some may live in community property states, etc. In terms of "sharing" or having access to the income, they'd have a much stronger claim to fulfill the spirit of that clause than a 20-something adult child still living at home.

Right, in a community propery State such as CA, post marriage, it doesn't matter which spouse earns or inherits what, it is 50/50. In this case, a non-working spouse legally has title and commands 50% of all income, liquid and non liquid assets.

For any non-spouse or spouse in a non-community property State, household income is much less meaningful.

Re: REALLY? "You may include somebody else's income"?!

cashnocredit — Fri, 07 Mar 2014 06:06:14 GMT

@Open123 wrote:
@CreditScholar wrote:
+1. For spouses, it was assumed that many would be filing jointly, some may live in community property states, etc. In terms of "sharing" or having access to the income, they'd have a much stronger claim to fulfill the spirit of that clause than a 20-something adult child still living at home.
Right, in a community propery State such as CA, post marriage, it doesn't matter which spouse earns or inherits what, it is 50/50. In this case, a non-working spouse legally has title and commands 50% of all income, liquid and non liquid assets.

For any non-spouse or spouse in a non-community property State, household income is much less meaningful.

Not quite. In a community property state both spouses share as community property all income acquired from working during marriage as well as assets acquired from community property income. Inherited money and assets and passive income from them are not community property.

Re: REALLY? "You may include somebody else's income"?!

Open123 — Fri, 07 Mar 2014 06:22:11 GMT

@cashnocredit wrote:Inherited money and assets and passive income from them are not community property.

Didn't know that!

Now, I've got a reply when my wife keeps insisting anything I were to inherit from my parents are community property.

Re: REALLY? "You may include somebody else's income"?!

Lin55 — Fri, 07 Mar 2014 06:46:59 GMT

@CreditScholar wrote:
@NikoD wrote:
Interesting, I live with my brother so I can take care of his kids. He pays for many of my expenses outright and also gives me cash. I would never try to claim his entire income as my own but it sounds like I'm allowed to add the money he gives me as added income? A lot of the stuff I charge on my credit cards are household/childcare related stuff that he pays me back for also.
The issue here would be if you're ever required to submit proof of income via 4506-T, paystubs, etc.

If you're ever hit with something like a FR, you might run into trouble if the difference between your declared income vs. what you can prove is too high.

So basically, put down your OWN income for Amex apps, and include others (if applicable) for all other banks who dont FR you?

ETA: Actually, including my SOs and my income together makes sense. I listed $90,000 as my income on my apps. However, with SO's high spending (and she's my AU) It looks like we will spend a little over $160K in one year. So it would benefit me if I included her income and mine together?

Re: REALLY? "You may include somebody else's income"?!

CreditScholar — Fri, 07 Mar 2014 06:45:30 GMT

@Open123 wrote:
@cashnocredit wrote:Inherited money and assets and passive income from them are not community property.
Didn't know that!

Now, I've got a reply when my wife keeps insisting anything I were to inherit from my parents are community property.

LOL, I remember getting lectured countless times as a child about the implications of living in a community property state, and the importance of choosing your spouse wisely.

Did you get the same lecture from your parents Open? Or is it only from your wife?

Re: REALLY? "You may include somebody else's income"?!

CreditScholar — Fri, 07 Mar 2014 06:46:20 GMT

@Lin55 wrote:
@CreditScholar wrote:
@NikoD wrote:
Interesting, I live with my brother so I can take care of his kids. He pays for many of my expenses outright and also gives me cash. I would never try to claim his entire income as my own but it sounds like I'm allowed to add the money he gives me as added income? A lot of the stuff I charge on my credit cards are household/childcare related stuff that he pays me back for also.
The issue here would be if you're ever required to submit proof of income via 4506-T, paystubs, etc.

If you're ever hit with something like a FR, you might run into trouble if the difference between your declared income vs. what you can prove is too high.
So basically, put down your OWN income for Amex apps, and include others (if applicable) for all other banks who dont FR you?

Amex isn't the only bank to verify income, but they're probably the most well known for it via FRs.

Re: REALLY? "You may include somebody else's income"?!

Anonymous — Fri, 07 Mar 2014 07:25:58 GMT

@CreditScholar wrote:
@Lin55 wrote:
@CreditScholar wrote:
@NikoD wrote:
Interesting, I live with my brother so I can take care of his kids. He pays for many of my expenses outright and also gives me cash. I would never try to claim his entire income as my own but it sounds like I'm allowed to add the money he gives me as added income? A lot of the stuff I charge on my credit cards are household/childcare related stuff that he pays me back for also.
The issue here would be if you're ever required to submit proof of income via 4506-T, paystubs, etc.

If you're ever hit with something like a FR, you might run into trouble if the difference between your declared income vs. what you can prove is too high.
So basically, put down your OWN income for Amex apps, and include others (if applicable) for all other banks who dont FR you?
Amex isn't the only bank to verify income, but they're probably the most well known for it via FRs.

+1.

All banks can verify income.

Most banks employ verification services to verify ID and income, though they may not necessary run it on everyone since it costs them money each time they do it. It works basically in a same way where your company will verify your background prior to employment. Equifax is one of those companies who also happen to provide income verification services, on top of being a credit bureau themselves.

Re: REALLY? "You may include somebody else's income"?!

wacdenney — Fri, 07 Mar 2014 13:25:47 GMT

It also depends on the App. Some applications specify persoanl income. Some specify personal income but then provide a space for "other" income where household income could be included. Some others do not specify in which case you can use personal and household income combined.

I have been filling out apps like this for a couple of years...