topic Re: Apple pay, ISIS, Tap to pay questions. in Credit Cards

Apple pay, ISIS, Tap to pay questions.

mongstradamus — Tue, 07 Oct 2014 04:15:45 GMT

I am intrigued with all this new talk of using phones nfc chip to pay for things. I have an few question whether its apple pay, ISIS, or google tap and pay, whats the consensus on the proper rewards you should be getting if you are using an card that has category spending. For example say if you use CSP, Citi Premeir, or Amex EDP. WIll you get bonus spending for gas, groceries, or restaurant spending ? Or is it an major YMMV.

The other question is what is difference between using ISIS and google tap and pay. Is it all marketing push? i know isis is pushed my major carriers and an lot of banks. I saw that Chase is pushing isis mobile payments. Is there an real difference between using ISIS and Goolge Tap and pay.

Re: Apple pay, ISIS, Tap to pay questions.

yfan — Tue, 07 Oct 2014 04:45:54 GMT

As I said in another thread, one should be getting their rewards no matter which platform they use. I don't have much experience with ISIS - and I am pretty sure it will die a quiet death - but with respect to Apple Pay and Google Wallet:

Google Wallet transmits the merchant name intact, with a "*googlewallet*" in front, and does not change the store category while transmitting. Hence, there should be no reason why you don't get the reward. I have always gotten mine.
Apple Pay only works with banks which have made deals with Apple - and presumably the rewards stuff is part of that deal. So if your card comes from one of those banks, then you should also be fine.

Re: Apple pay, ISIS, Tap to pay questions.

wHiTeSoL — Tue, 07 Oct 2014 04:58:03 GMT

@yfan wrote:
As I said in another thread, one should be getting their rewards no matter which platform they use. I don't have much experience with ISIS - and I am pretty sure it will die a quiet death - but with respect to Apple Pay and Google Wallet:

Google Wallet transmits the merchant name intact, with a "*googlewallet*" in front, and does not change the store category while transmitting. Hence, there should be no reason why you don't get the reward. I have always gotten mine.
Apple Pay only works with banks which have made deals with Apple - and presumably the rewards stuff is part of that deal. So if your card comes from one of those banks, then you should also be fine.

ISIS, now called Softcard will not die easily. It is a joint venture between AT&T, Verizon and T-Mobile. When you use tap to pay with Softcard it's just like swiping your card, so rewards stay intact.

Re: Apple pay, ISIS, Tap to pay questions.

yfan — Tue, 07 Oct 2014 05:15:17 GMT

@wHiTeSoL wrote:
ISIS, now called Softcard will not die easily. It is a joint venture between AT&T, Verizon and T-Mobile. When you use tap to pay with Softcard it's just like swiping your card, so rewards stay intact.

If the carriers still had hope for Softcard, they wouldn't have allowed Apple to bring Apple Pay to the market. It's just that simple. iPhones take up roughly half the high-end phone market (people more likely to use this technology), Android the other half, with Android also dominating the budget market. ISIS/Softcard has neither Google's hold on everything online nor Apple's ad budget. Unless Softcard wants to start paying manufacturers to support NFC on all phones, I don't see any way for them to survive.

Re: Apple pay, ISIS, Tap to pay questions.

wHiTeSoL — Tue, 07 Oct 2014 07:41:32 GMT

@yfan wrote:
@wHiTeSoL wrote:
ISIS, now called Softcard will not die easily. It is a joint venture between AT&T, Verizon and T-Mobile. When you use tap to pay with Softcard it's just like swiping your card, so rewards stay intact.
If the carriers still had hope for Softcard, they wouldn't have allowed Apple to bring Apple Pay to the market. It's just that simple. iPhones take up roughly half the high-end phone market (people more likely to use this technology), Android the other half, with Android also dominating the budget market. ISIS/Softcard has neither Google's hold on everything online nor Apple's ad budget. Unless Softcard wants to start paying manufacturers to support NFC on all phones, I don't see any way for them to survive.

If apple wants to do something I'm pretty sure there isn't a company who can stop them. Softcard will also be compatible with iPhones in the future, Softcard is also currently compatible with a huge amount of phones already. I see this as a two horse race, despite google being a player they don't seem to have any focus on making google wallet a competitor.

Re: Apple pay, ISIS, Tap to pay questions.

Gollum — Tue, 07 Oct 2014 10:37:25 GMT

October 2015 is when the "liability shift" http://blogs.wsj.com/corporate-intelligence/2014/02/06/october-2015-the-end-of-the-swipe-and-sign-credit-card/ goes into effect. Whichever entity is using inferior technology will be responsible financially if there is credit card fraud. Most of the U.S. credit card industry (including merchants) will presumably switch to tap and pay technology to avoid the liability. I think proprietary smart-phone tap and pay technology that is limited to specific banks and/or cellphone networks will lose out to whatever Visa and MasterCard issuers back. So far, that seems to be Google Wallet, IMHO.

Re: Apple pay, ISIS, Tap to pay questions.

yfan — Tue, 07 Oct 2014 12:30:17 GMT

@wHiTeSoL wrote:
If apple wants to do something I'm pretty sure there isn't a company who can stop them. Softcard will also be compatible with iPhones in the future, Softcard is also currently compatible with a huge amount of phones already. I see this as a two horse race, despite google being a player they don't seem to have any focus on making google wallet a competitor.

If that's true, carriers have had an even smaller focus on making Softcard a competitor. There's next to no awareness of Softcard among consumers, and there's next to no possibility of Softcard ever becoming a serious competitor in this space. What carriers surrendered with Apple Pay is their control over the Secure Element - which they hadn't with Google Wallet. Google decided to sidestep the Secure Element by using the cloud to authenticate. But carriers won't be able to retain their contorl over the Secure Element in certain phones but not others. Samsung will sue the pants off of them, for example, should they decide to enter the mobile payment market too. Without control of the Secure Element, Softcard has nothing.

We don't have to agree. Time will tell which one of us is right.

Re: Apple pay, ISIS, Tap to pay questions.

takeshi74 — Tue, 07 Oct 2014 12:54:11 GMT

@mongstradamus wrote:
I am intrigued with all this new talk of using phones nfc chip to pay for things. I have an few question whether its apple pay, ISIS, or google tap and pay, whats the consensus on the proper rewards you should be getting if you are using an card that has category spending. For example say if you use CSP, Citi Premeir, or Amex EDP. WIll you get bonus spending for gas, groceries, or restaurant spending ? Or is it an major YMMV.

You don't need consensus. You can check with the sources.

For Apple Pay all we can go on is what they've said so far given that it hasn't been rolled out yet.

https://www.apple.com/iphone-6/apple-pay/

The major credit cards. With the same major benefits.
Apple Pay works with most of the major credit and debit cards from the top U.S. banks. Just add your participating cards to Passbook and you’ll continue to get all the rewards, benefits, and security of your cards.

For the others:

https://www.paywithisis.com/learn.html

Add a participating American Express®¥, Chase®‡, or Wells Fargo®§ credit card and get all the same perks and benefits from your card issuer.

https://support.google.com/wallet/answer/2688794?hl=en&ref_topic=3210037

You may not earn certain reward points and benefits for purchases through your card issuer's credit or debit card rewards program (such as overall spending and purchase protection or insurance). Keep in mind that for purchases where Google Wallet facilitates the payment and then charges your selected card, the amount charged to your registered card is charged by Google Wallet and not by the merchant where you make a purchase.

@yfan wrote:
If the carriers still had hope for Softcard, they wouldn't have allowed Apple to bring Apple Pay to the market. It's just that simple.

They really aren't the gatekeepers (not for Apple anyway) that your comment makes them out to be. Android devices where updates have to be approved by the carriers (which is not all Android devices IIRC) are more susceptible.

Re: Apple pay, ISIS, Tap to pay questions.

Josh2942 — Tue, 07 Oct 2014 12:56:30 GMT

The only new one is apple pay. Google tap to pay has been around since 2011.

Re: Apple pay, ISIS, Tap to pay questions.

mongstradamus — Tue, 07 Oct 2014 14:19:07 GMT

I tried reading thru all the posts here, and I am still an little confused I am going to just try it out and see what happens. I will try it at few different places like cvs, starbucks, and home depot, if they have nfc payments there.

As far as ISIS vs Google Wallet, I think isis in the end will probably win out. They have 3 of the 4 major carriers in tow, and some of the bigger banks, so they probably have more money to throw at guranteeing their service will win out. I recall an while ago vzw and att blocked wallet even working on their phones so they could promote isis. I don't know if that is true anymore.

Re: Apple pay, ISIS, Tap to pay questions.

slicemans — Tue, 07 Oct 2014 15:01:08 GMT

@Josh2942 wrote:
The only new one is apple pay. Google tap to pay has been around since 2011.

Neither is new. Thye both use same technology.

Re: Apple pay, ISIS, Tap to pay questions.

yfan — Tue, 07 Oct 2014 15:05:43 GMT

@takeshi74 wrote:
https://support.google.com/wallet/answer/2688794?hl=en&ref_topic=3210037
You may not earn certain reward points and benefits for purchases through your card issuer's credit or debit card rewards program (such as overall spending and purchase protection or insurance). Keep in mind that for purchases where Google Wallet facilitates the payment and then charges your selected card, the amount charged to your registered card is charged by Google Wallet and not by the merchant where you make a purchase.
@yfan wrote:
If the carriers still had hope for Softcard, they wouldn't have allowed Apple to bring Apple Pay to the market. It's just that simple.
They really aren't the gatekeepers (not for Apple anyway) that your comment makes them out to be. Android devices where updates have to be approved by the carriers (which is not all Android devices IIRC) are more susceptible.

First, Apple Pay is never going to be compatible with all cards on the 4 major card networks - only the banks that are willing to cut a deal with them and give them a part of the proceeds. I'm not saying that to be mean - it's a perfectly valid business model, and one that has worked well for Apple. But the fact remains that some of the best credit cards won't even work with Apple Pay out the gate at all, with or without Rewards. Discover, for example, is not - at least not yet - a part of Apple Pay. Discover does, however, fully integrate with Google Wallet, with the rewards.

https://www.discover.com/credit-cards/google-wallet/

Connect your Discover card to your Google account and use it wherever you see Buy with Google and on Google Play. You'll conveniently earn rewards on each purchase while you speed through checkout.

There are others. Apple says Navy FCU is "coming soon" but no mention of NASA. Let alone the smaller credit unions that many people rely on for rewards debit cards and low interest credit cards.

With respect to Google Wallet, there are two misconceptions here. First of all, not all Android phones/devices require carrier approval for OS updates. The Nexus 5, for example, can be activated on any of the big 4 except for Verizon (and that's because Verizon won't allow it on the network, not because the device itself is incompatible), and the updates come directly from Google. The Nexus 7, a tablet, can be activated even on Verizon. Motorola have recently done very, very well in sticking close to stock Android and fast updates on all its recent devices on all carriers.

Second, Google Wallet does not come with the OS update. It comes as an app from the Play Store. All Android devices have the Play Store, and carriers can no more prevent you from downloading the Google Wallet from the Play Store than they can stop you from getting Facebook. The Tap and Pay feature requires Android 4.4, which all recently released devices have.

Not to mention you don't actually even need a carrier connection on your phone to use Google Wallet. All you need is a data connection. Store wifi, mall wifi, any of it will do.

Google Wallet has been around for a while, so there's more than "what they say" to go by. With respect to what you quoted from Google, let's complete the quote:

Rewards and benefits, if applicable, will be decided by your card's issuer. Your card's issuer (not Google Wallet or The Bancorp Bank) determines and is responsible for whether rewards points or other benefits apply to these purchases.

If you receive additional rewards when shopping at a specific merchant, these benefits may not be applied when using Google Wallet.

So, you may not receive a reward if it is tied to a specific store rather than a category. I can tell you from experience that Google Wallet does not change the category. And actually, it has always worked even for stores. I recently had a BankAmeriDeal for 10% cashback with Jamba Juice (specific merchant), paid with Google Wallet, and when the transaction posted on my BofA VISA, it posted with the reward.

Re: Apple pay, ISIS, Tap to pay questions.

wHiTeSoL — Tue, 07 Oct 2014 18:17:11 GMT

@yfan wrote:
@takeshi74 wrote:
https://support.google.com/wallet/answer/2688794?hl=en&ref_topic=3210037
You may not earn certain reward points and benefits for purchases through your card issuer's credit or debit card rewards program (such as overall spending and purchase protection or insurance). Keep in mind that for purchases where Google Wallet facilitates the payment and then charges your selected card, the amount charged to your registered card is charged by Google Wallet and not by the merchant where you make a purchase.
@yfan wrote:
If the carriers still had hope for Softcard, they wouldn't have allowed Apple to bring Apple Pay to the market. It's just that simple.
They really aren't the gatekeepers (not for Apple anyway) that your comment makes them out to be. Android devices where updates have to be approved by the carriers (which is not all Android devices IIRC) are more susceptible.
First, Apple Pay is never going to be compatible with all cards on the 4 major card networks - only the banks that are willing to cut a deal with them and give them a part of the proceeds. I'm not saying that to be mean - it's a perfectly valid business model, and one that has worked well for Apple. But the fact remains that some of the best credit cards won't even work with Apple Pay out the gate at all, with or without Rewards. Discover, for example, is not - at least not yet - a part of Apple Pay. Discover does, however, fully integrate with Google Wallet, with the rewards.
I wouldn't say never, in the future it may act like a pass through service and allow you to add any card you want. (a la google wallet)

https://www.discover.com/credit-cards/google-wallet/
Connect your Discover card to your Google account and use it wherever you see Buy with Google and on Google Play. You'll conveniently earn rewards on each purchase while you speed through checkout.
There are others. Apple says Navy FCU is "coming soon" but no mention of NASA. Let alone the smaller credit unions that many people rely on for rewards debit cards and low interest credit cards.

With respect to Google Wallet, there are two misconceptions here. First of all, not all Android phones/devices require carrier approval for OS updates. The Nexus 5, for example, can be activated on any of the big 4 except for Verizon (and that's because Verizon won't allow it on the network, not because the device itself is incompatible), and the updates come directly from Google. The Nexus 7, a tablet, can be activated even on Verizon. Motorola have recently done very, very well in sticking close to stock Android and fast updates on all its recent devices on all carriers.

This is only partially true. Only carrier branded devices require carrier approval for OS updates. On the Nexus 5, Sprint will not allow you to activate it if you didn't get the phone directly from google and/or sprint (so becareful if you ebay one for instance). The issue is with CDMA carriers in general, they will not allow a devices to be activated on their network if the ESN isn't loaded into their system, the Nexus 7 on the other hand is different entirely: becuase it is a data device and not a voice device it doesn't rely on CDMA for verizon it rides on LTE (which is GSM based)
Motorola by virtue of being owned by google for a short while was/is expected to stick very close to stock android since the moto X.

Second, Google Wallet does not come with the OS update. It comes as an app from the Play Store. All Android devices have the Play Store, and carriers can no more prevent you from downloading the Google Wallet from the Play Store than they can stop you from getting Facebook. The Tap and Pay feature requires Android 4.4, which all recently released devices have.

Again only partially true, and I can fix that for you. "All google certified android devices have the play store" Since the OS is free for anyone to use there wasn't a way for google to require everyone to include the play store, just like you dont see them on amazon devices or many no name inexpensive smartphones. There was long time as well where you could see google wallet in the play store but would not be able to download it as it was "not compatible with your device"

Not to mention you don't actually even need a carrier connection on your phone to use Google Wallet. All you need is a data connection. Store wifi, mall wifi, any of it will do.

Google Wallet has been around for a while, so there's more than "what they say" to go by. With respect to what you quoted from Google, let's complete the quote:

Rewards and benefits, if applicable, will be decided by your card's issuer. Your card's issuer (not Google Wallet or The Bancorp Bank) determines and is responsible for whether rewards points or other benefits apply to these purchases.

If you receive additional rewards when shopping at a specific merchant, these benefits may not be applied when using Google Wallet.

So, you may not receive a reward if it is tied to a specific store rather than a category. I can tell you from experience that Google Wallet does not change the category. And actually, it has always worked even for stores. I recently had a BankAmeriDeal for 10% cashback with Jamba Juice (specific merchant), paid with Google Wallet, and when the transaction posted on my BofA VISA, it posted with the reward.
Agreed, I have used google wallet in the past and it really is just a pass through type of service, just like softcard is. I have not ever had it change the store and/or category.

Re: Apple pay, ISIS, Tap to pay questions.

yfan — Tue, 07 Oct 2014 19:14:20 GMT

@wHiTeSoL wrote:
I wouldn't say never, in the future it may act like a pass through service and allow you to add any card you want. (a la google wallet)

I doubt that. Apple isn't going to do it, because there's nothing in it for Apple. Google sees value in it because in collecting transaction information, it can sell better targeted ads. Since Apple is explicitly not doing that, there's no value in it for them.

wHiTeSoL wrote:
This is only partially true. Only carrier branded devices require carrier approval for OS updates. On the Nexus 5, Sprint will not allow you to activate it if you didn't get the phone directly from google and/or sprint (so becareful if you ebay one for instance). The issue is with CDMA carriers in general, they will not allow a devices to be activated on their network if the ESN isn't loaded into their system, the Nexus 7 on the other hand is different entirely: becuase it is a data device and not a voice device it doesn't rely on CDMA for verizon it rides on LTE (which is GSM based)
Motorola by virtue of being owned by google for a short while was/is expected to stick very close to stock android since the moto X.

Sprint will actually allow you to activate any Nexus 5 as long as it hasn't been blacklisted. Take it to a store and they will add the ESN to their system. With the advent of VoLTE, the CDMA/GSM distinction will eventually disappear.

Motorola was owned by Google but Google never gave it special treatment, nor put any extra pressure on it. It was wholly owned but managed completely separately from Google. Either way, the point is that Motorola has proven that customers can have both a great user experience and frequent updates with a carrier branded Android device.

wHiTeSoL wrote:
Again only partially true, and I can fix that for you. "All google certified android devices have the play store" Since the OS is free for anyone to use there wasn't a way for google to require everyone to include the play store, just like you dont see them on amazon devices or many no name inexpensive smartphones. There was long time as well where you could see google wallet in the play store but would not be able to download it as it was "not compatible with your device"

Okay, yes I am aware of the technicalities. But what is widely understood to be Android devices ARE the Google certified ones. Even Amazon won't call Fire OS Android. The distiction, when speaking about the consumer market, is really without a difference. The incompatibilities of Play Store apps are NOT based on carrier preferences, except the carrier "My account" apps. Those are based on OS or hardware incompatibilities. Wallet used to require access to the Secure Element on the NFC, which carrier branded phones had blocked. Google worked around it and, no more incompatibilites.

Re: Apple pay, ISIS, Tap to pay questions.

Anonymous — Tue, 07 Oct 2014 19:21:23 GMT

I think the Dept. of Homeland security is going to red flag this thread as a terrorist site with all this ISIS talk. LOL!!!!!!!

Re: Apple pay, ISIS, Tap to pay questions.

Anomalous — Tue, 07 Oct 2014 19:32:24 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
I think the Dept. of Homeland security is going to red flag this thread as a terrorist site with all this ISIS talk. LOL!!!!!!!

I did a double-take when I initially saw this thread title.

Re: Apple pay, ISIS, Tap to pay questions.

Closingracer99 — Tue, 07 Oct 2014 21:21:51 GMT

@yfan wrote:
@wHiTeSoL wrote:
ISIS, now called Softcard will not die easily. It is a joint venture between AT&T, Verizon and T-Mobile. When you use tap to pay with Softcard it's just like swiping your card, so rewards stay intact.
If the carriers still had hope for Softcard, they wouldn't have allowed Apple to bring Apple Pay to the market. It's just that simple. iPhones take up roughly half the high-end phone market (people more likely to use this technology), Android the other half, with Android also dominating the budget market. ISIS/Softcard has neither Google's hold on everything online nor Apple's ad budget. Unless Softcard wants to start paying manufacturers to support NFC on all phones, I don't see any way for them to survive.

When would Apple use a 3rd party offering when they can make their own. Manufactures have been putting in NFC in almost every single Smartphone not named iPhone and maybe Windoes phone? Samsung Galaxy S and Note series both have NFC since like the S3 and since Samsung is the best sold Android manufacture it really isn't an issue. Softcard isn't going to "Die" considering the 3 carriers prefer it over Google wallet which is much better imo.

Re: Apple pay, ISIS, Tap to pay questions.

Closingracer99 — Tue, 07 Oct 2014 21:24:20 GMT

@mongstradamus wrote:
I tried reading thru all the posts here, and I am still an little confused I am going to just try it out and see what happens. I will try it at few different places like cvs, starbucks, and home depot, if they have nfc payments there.

As far as ISIS vs Google Wallet, I think isis in the end will probably win out. They have 3 of the 4 major carriers in tow, and some of the bigger banks, so they probably have more money to throw at guranteeing their service will win out. I recall an while ago vzw and att blocked wallet even working on their phones so they could promote isis. I don't know if that is true anymore.

Google Wallet isn't Blocked any more since Google bypassed it.

Re: Apple pay, ISIS, Tap to pay questions.

skigirl916 — Tue, 07 Oct 2014 21:40:01 GMT

@wHiTeSoL wrote:
@yfan wrote:
As I said in another thread, one should be getting their rewards no matter which platform they use. I don't have much experience with ISIS - and I am pretty sure it will die a quiet death - but with respect to Apple Pay and Google Wallet:

Google Wallet transmits the merchant name intact, with a "*googlewallet*" in front, and does not change the store category while transmitting. Hence, there should be no reason why you don't get the reward. I have always gotten mine.
Apple Pay only works with banks which have made deals with Apple - and presumably the rewards stuff is part of that deal. So if your card comes from one of those banks, then you should also be fine.
ISIS, now called Softcard will not die easily. It is a joint venture between AT&T, Verizon and T-Mobile. When you use tap to pay with Softcard it's just like swiping your card, so rewards stay intact.

The seriously have a program called ISIS? I hope that was a really old acronym...

Re: Apple pay, ISIS, Tap to pay questions.

14Fiesta — Tue, 07 Oct 2014 22:27:26 GMT

@skigirl916 wrote:
@wHiTeSoL wrote:
@yfan wrote:
As I said in another thread, one should be getting their rewards no matter which platform they use. I don't have much experience with ISIS - and I am pretty sure it will die a quiet death - but with respect to Apple Pay and Google Wallet:

Google Wallet transmits the merchant name intact, with a "*googlewallet*" in front, and does not change the store category while transmitting. Hence, there should be no reason why you don't get the reward. I have always gotten mine.
Apple Pay only works with banks which have made deals with Apple - and presumably the rewards stuff is part of that deal. So if your card comes from one of those banks, then you should also be fine.
ISIS, now called Softcard will not die easily. It is a joint venture between AT&T, Verizon and T-Mobile. When you use tap to pay with Softcard it's just like swiping your card, so rewards stay intact.
The seriously have a program called ISIS? I hope that was a really old acronym...

It was. The company has since been named Softcard, with the CEO explicitly saying they didn't want to be confused with the "militant group."