topic Re: FICO Will Combine Hard Pulls for Your Next App Spree! in Understanding FICO® Scoring

Buffering and Deduplication of Credit Card Inquiries Research Project

JLK93 — Sun, 18 Dec 2016 15:46:26 GMT

It is a little known fact that most credit card inquiries, taken in a short period of time, will be counted as 1 for FICO scoring purposes.

Most credit card inquiries are scored the same as mortgage inquiries by FICO. The inquiries are not be scored by FICO for 31 days. Then, any inquiries taken within a short period of time will be scored as one by FICO. Therefore, it is possible to take a large number of inquiries and only lose as few as 3 points. Theoretically, this will apply to any inquiries taken within 45 days for FICO 8. However, my research has only focused on inquiries taken within a period of 1 week.

Inquiries from BofA, Barclays, Synchrony, Capital One, virtually all Credit Unions, probably Amex and others will be combined for scoring purposes.

This means that by strategically planning your app sprees, it is possible to lose only a few points. For example, an app spree consisting of BofA, Barclays, Synchrony and several Transunion pulling Credit Unions could only cost you 3 points.

There is no need for the shopping card trick. You can get better cards with little point loss.

The delayed scoring of inquiries is referred to as buffering by FICO.

The scoring of multiple inquiries as one is referred to as deduplication by FICO. The commonly used term is deduped.

Chase, Citi and FNBO pull Bankcard Enhanced inquiries. It is unlikely that those inquiries will be combined.

I recently took 4 CLI hard pulls and on credit card app hard pull. There was no change in my scores for 31 days. At that time the hard pulls were scored as 1. The table below shows the results:

	11/2/2016	11/16/2065	11/17/2016	11/18/2016	11/18/2016	11/19/2016	12/16/2016	12/17/2016
	Before Spree	Barclays CLI	Barclays CLI	BofA CLI	Barclays CLI	Synchrony App	After Spree	Deduped HPs
Hard Pulls	2	3	4	5	6	7	7	7
TU 04	802	*	*	*	*	*	802	792
TU FICO 8	850	*	*	*	*	*	850	085
Bankcard 8	895	*	*	*	*	*	895	890

The following shows the deduplication (combined scoring) of 4 Credit Union inquiries:

	2/17/2016	2/18/2016	2/19/2016	2/26/2016	3/21/2015
	Penfed	AAFCU CLI	JFCU	JFCU CC App	Deduped HPs
EQ FICO 8	815	815	815	815	812

The next table shows the combined scoring (deduplication) of 2 Hard Pulls from 2014:

	11/25/2014	12/1/2014	12/1/2014	12/28/2014	1/6/2014
	Before	BofA CLI	Barclays App	After	Deduped HPs
TU FICO 8	809	809	809	809	806

The next table shows the delayed scoring (buffering) of a Capital One Application:

	6/11/2015	6/24/2015	7/8/2015	7/15/2015
	CapOne App		Loan <10%	Buffered HP
EQ FICO 8	813	813	850	846

The next table shows the buffering (delayed scoring) of a Penfed CLI:

	10/29/2015	11/27/2015	12/2/2015
	Penfed CLI		Buffered HP
EQ FICO 8	846	846	839

The last table shows the delayed scoring (buffering) of a BofA CLI:

	10/23/2015	11/22/2015	11/25/2015
	BofA CLI		Buffered HP
TU FICO 8	849	849	846

Feel free to add your comments, data or research.

Re: FICO Will Combine Hard Pulls for Your Next App Spree!

Anonymous — Sun, 18 Dec 2016 02:41:59 GMT

Not trying to correct your tables here or anything, but wouldn't we need to know your utilization, and what each increase resulted in? You had so many changes was there a measurement afterwards to show your scores when your reports reflected the increases?

Plus your scores were so close to perfect anyway, you probably have some really old accounts or micromange your utilization. For me, no matter what my scores are kinda stuck but that is because of opening so many cards so often and having a 5 year old late payment error on a student loan.

Re: FICO Will Combine Hard Pulls for Your Next App Spree!

Anonymous — Sun, 18 Dec 2016 02:47:10 GMT

Good post for new members, pretty sure all of our seasoned members know this. Got all on one pull: 2 chase cards (1 ex pull), 2 cap one cards (all bureaus, 1 pull), and 2 boa cards (1 tu pull)

Re: FICO Will Combine Hard Pulls for Your Next App Spree!

kdm31091 — Sun, 18 Dec 2016 02:51:08 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
Good post for new members, pretty sure all of our seasoned members know this. Got all on one pull: 2 chase cards (1 ex pull), 2 cap one cards (all bureaus, 1 pull), and 2 boa cards (1 tu pull)

Can't do it with Capital One anymore - they will only approve one card every 6 months now. Just so new members know. So those 3 pulls from Capital One can only get you one card.

Re: FICO Will Combine Hard Pulls for Your Next App Spree!

JLK93 — Sun, 18 Dec 2016 02:54:56 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
Not trying to correct your tables here or anything, but wouldn't we need to know your utilization, and what each increase resulted in? You had so many changes was there a measurement afterwards to show your scores when your reports reflected the increases?

Plus your scores were so close to perfect anyway, you probably have some really old accounts or micromange your utilization. For me, no matter what my scores are kinda stuck but that is because of opening so many cards so often and having a 5 year old late payment error on a student loan.

Overall utilization and per card utilization is always under 1%. My scores are very stable. I was careful to make sure that the tables show when the score drops occured.

Re: FICO Will Combine Hard Pulls for Your Next App Spree!

Anonymous — Sun, 18 Dec 2016 02:55:59 GMT

Good to know. I always knew this to be true of inquiries related to installment loans, but didn't know it was also the case for revolvers.

In terms of scoring, this information could be a reason why someone should consider a "spree" over applying for the same amount of cards over several months.

Re: FICO Will Combine Hard Pulls for Your Next App Spree!

JLK93 — Sun, 18 Dec 2016 02:57:23 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
Good post for new members, pretty sure all of our seasoned members know this. Got all on one pull: 2 chase cards (1 ex pull), 2 cap one cards (all bureaus, 1 pull), and 2 boa cards (1 tu pull)

This isn't about getting multiple cards on one pull. This is about buffering and deduplication. What this refers to is the possibility of taking 10, 20 or 50 HPs, having them scored as 1, and only losing 3 points.

Re: FICO Will Combine Hard Pulls for Your Next App Spree!

JLK93 — Sun, 18 Dec 2016 02:58:58 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
Good to know. I always knew this to be true of inquiries related to installment loans, but didn't know it was also the case for revolvers.

In terms of scoring, this information could be a reason why someone should consider a "spree" over applying for the same amount of cards over several months.

Exactly.

Re: FICO Will Combine Hard Pulls for Your Next App Spree!

Anonymous — Sun, 18 Dec 2016 03:59:12 GMT

I'm curious on how you are determining that the inquiries are being scored as one. Just because your scores didn't drop that much? I'd really like know where you're getting your info from. Certainly cant be just from your own personal experiences because everyone's credit file is vastly different.

Also it is very misleading to suggest to other posters, especially new ones that taking 50 inquiries is only to damage your score a few points. Won't happen that way especially if new accounts are created and even if all inquiries resulted in declines I don't believe that anyone would see just a few point drop.

Re: FICO Will Combine Hard Pulls for Your Next App Spree!

JLK93 — Sun, 18 Dec 2016 04:12:51 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
I'm curious on how you are determining that the inquiries are being scored as one. Just because your scores didn't drop that much? I'd really like know where you're getting your info from. Certainly cant be just from your own personal experiences because everyone's credit file is vastly different.

Also it is very misleading to suggest to other posters, especially new ones that taking 50 inquiries is only to damage your score a few points. Won't happen that way especially if new accounts are created and even if all inquiries resulted in declines I don't believe that anyone would see just a few point drop.

5 HPs result in no score drop for 30 days. 31 days later there is a small score drop, reflecting only 1 HP. That is how buffering a deduplication works. I've presented multiple repeated examples. If you read the charts it is very clear.

When HPs are deduplicated they are scored as 1. I've never heard of any limit to the number of inquiries that can be deduplicated. So certainly 50 HPs would likely be deduplicated. I used 50 as an example to explain that this is not about getting multiple cards for 1 HP. It is, however, accurate.

Re: FICO Will Combine Hard Pulls for Your Next App Spree!

JLK93 — Sun, 18 Dec 2016 04:22:57 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
I'd really like know where you're getting your info from. Certainly cant be just from your own personal experiences because everyone's credit file is vastly different.

It has nothing to do with credit files. I mean no offense, but are you familiar with how deduplication works. I did, in fact, discover this from my own personal experiences. I then did a lot of searching. I found an 2000 article from the Mortgage Professor. He was told by someone from Fair Isaac that HPs are frequently miscoded. This leaves doubt as to the purpose of the inquiry. The algorithms give the benefit of doubt to certain types of inquiries.

https://iloanhomemortgage.com/do-credit-inquiries-hurt-your-credit-score/

Re: FICO Will Combine Hard Pulls for Your Next App Spree!

Anonymous — Sun, 18 Dec 2016 04:29:33 GMT

@JLK93 wrote:
@Anonymous wrote:
I'm curious on how you are determining that the inquiries are being scored as one. Just because your scores didn't drop that much? I'd really like know where you're getting your info from. Certainly cant be just from your own personal experiences because everyone's credit file is vastly different.

Also it is very misleading to suggest to other posters, especially new ones that taking 50 inquiries is only to damage your score a few points. Won't happen that way especially if new accounts are created and even if all inquiries resulted in declines I don't believe that anyone would see just a few point drop.
5 HPs result in no score drop for 30 days. 31 days later there is a small score drop, reflecting only 1 HP. That is how buffering a deduplication works. I've presented multiple repeated examples. If you read the charts it is very clear.

When HPs are deduplicated they are scored as 1. I've never heard of any limit to the number of inquiries that can be deduplicated. So certainly 50 HPs would likely be deduplicated. I used 50 as an example to explain that this is not about getting multiple cards for 1 HP. It is, however, accurate.

I read the charts and again you're assuming a theory based solely on your experience that from what I have read about FICO scoring of credit card inquiries is just not correct. Just because you experience a small score drop from 5 inquiries does not mean that they are being scored as one. I think you need to provide other information from knowledgable sources to back up your theory.

Re: FICO Will Combine Hard Pulls for Your Next App Spree!

Anonymous — Sun, 18 Dec 2016 04:49:00 GMT

@JLK93 wrote:
@Anonymous wrote:
I'd really like know where you're getting your info from. Certainly cant be just from your own personal experiences because everyone's credit file is vastly different.
It has nothing to do with credit files. I mean no offense, but are you familiar with how deduplication works. I did, in fact, discover this from my own personal experiences. I then did a lot of searching. I found an 2000 article from the Mortgage Professor. He was told by someone from Fair Isaac that HPs are frequently miscoded. This leaves doubt as to the purpose of the inquiry. The algorithms give the benefit of doubt to certain types of inquiries.

https://iloanhomemortgage.com/do-credit-inquiries-hurt-your-credit-score/

Yes I know how it works and your article does not prove that credit card inquiries are scored as one or even addresses that issue. Yes it applies to mortgage and auto loan inquiries because it it well known that people are interest rate shopping when trying to buy a home or auto and the intent is not to punish those types of customers. Someone applying for multiple credit cards in a short period is completely different and that's why credit card inquiries are not scored as one in most cases.

Re: FICO Will Combine Hard Pulls for Your Next App Spree!

myjourney — Sun, 18 Dec 2016 04:37:04 GMT

It's is and has been known for years that mortgage and auto loans applied for within a 30 day period can be coded as one HP

However:

This DOES NOT apply to CC's

Also if not coded correctly during the auto process they'll result in more than one HP as well and there's nothing you can do about it

It should also be noted as stated above this is a completely YMMV situation for each and every profile and one result has no bearing on the masses

Re: FICO Will Combine Hard Pulls for Your Next App Spree!

JLK93 — Sun, 18 Dec 2016 04:37:10 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
from what I have read about FICO scoring of credit card inquiries is just not correct.

Why are you assuming that what you've read about FICO scoring of credit card inquiries is correct?

Re: FICO Will Combine Hard Pulls for Your Next App Spree!

JLK93 — Sun, 18 Dec 2016 04:40:23 GMT

@myjourney wrote:

This DOES NOT apply to CC's

How do you know?

Re: FICO Will Combine Hard Pulls for Your Next App Spree!

myjourney — Sun, 18 Dec 2016 04:47:02 GMT

@JLK93 wrote:
@myjourney wrote:

This DOES NOT apply to CC's

How do you know?

Experience and tons of apps Lol

Not to mention Chase, Amex and Citi have been known in some cases to pull the same CB twice and they not be removed or recorded as 1 HP

Edit to add in rare cases Amex and sometimes Chase have merged HP but its not the norm by a long shot

Re: FICO Will Combine Hard Pulls for Your Next App Spree!

JLK93 — Sun, 18 Dec 2016 04:48:11 GMT

@myjourney wrote:
@JLK93 wrote:
@myjourney wrote:

This DOES NOT apply to CC's

How do you know?
Experience and tons of apps Lol
Not to mention Chase, Amex and Citi have been known in some cases to pull the same CB twice and they not be removed or recorded as 1 HP

I already pointed out that this does not appliy to Case or Citi. I may not apply to Amex. All of my data is from TU and EQ.

Re: FICO Will Combine Hard Pulls for Your Next App Spree!

Anonymous — Sun, 18 Dec 2016 04:55:10 GMT

@JLK93 wrote:
@Anonymous wrote:
from what I have read about FICO scoring of credit card inquiries is just not correct.
Why are you assuming that what you've read about FICO scoring of credit card inquiries is correct?

Why are you assuming that it isn't?

Don't you think that if your theory was true that it would be well known with various credit card forums/blogs/Reddit? It's not and as I have said the only basis that you have provided for your theory ( which btw you presented as fact which it clearly isn't) is from your own personal experience.

Re: FICO Will Combine Hard Pulls for Your Next App Spree!

Aahz — Sun, 18 Dec 2016 06:16:37 GMT

@JLK93 wrote:
@Anonymous wrote:
from what I have read about FICO scoring of credit card inquiries is just not correct.
Why are you assuming that what you've read about FICO scoring of credit card inquiries is correct?

Why are you assuming that your interpretation of a single credit profile applies universally?

Even your own expert disagrees with your conclusion-

"I had a mortgage lender friend make a credit inquiry to obtain my score, then I shopped two card issuers and had my friend inquire again. My score had dropped 13 points. All credit card inquiries are treated as indicators of distress." - from you link above