topic Re: Hard pulls vs time in Understanding FICO® Scoring

Hard pulls vs time

KJinNC — Tue, 14 May 2019 03:21:47 GMT

I know hard pulls are no longer calculated in the most common FICO scores after a year, and that they drop off your credit report entirely after two years. But, that's all I know, and I'm hoping to fill in some blanks.

Let's suppose that some doofus named KJinNC started trying to build credit without reading this forum or other solid info first, and ended up with 11 hard pulls on EQ in short order. Just hypothetically.

Let's suppose that when he checks preapprovals now, the messages are sometimes about too many recent inquiries.

What happens in a month? Three months? Six months? eight or ten months? Does the impact drop quickly but then a small amount lingers, or does the impact stay about the same for most or all of the 12 months?

And at the other end: even when it's no longer calculated in FICO scores, do a lot of companies still refuse you for having a ton of hard pulls from, say, 15 months ago? Are there certain types of companies or certain types of credit where it matters more or matters less? For example, is it irrelevant for auto loans but makes it hard to get highly desirable credit cards, or vice versa?

Thanks!

Re: Hard pulls vs time

Anonymous — Tue, 14 May 2019 03:45:48 GMT

The impact on your scores will stay until they age to 1 year, there is no partial point gain along the way.

If you have no inquiries or new accounts in the last 6 months, most lenders will overlook it at that point assuming they like the rest of your profile.

Re: Hard pulls vs time

Brian_Earl_Spilner — Tue, 14 May 2019 04:18:03 GMT

Regardless of it affecting your score, the inquiries stay on there until they fall off and it will be seen when the report is pulled. If your inq are excessive, you'll still be denied. Now, if you're good at recon or have good excuses for why you have so many, like a dealership shotgunned your app, then you can get by. I'm at 14 or 15 with the last 2 resulting in approvals. The oldest 2 inq will age to 1 year tomorrow.

Re: Hard pulls vs time

Andypanda — Tue, 14 May 2019 05:14:08 GMT

@Brian_Earl_Spilner wrote:
Regardless of it affecting your score, the inquiries stay on there until they fall off and it will be seen when the report is pulled. If your inq are excessive, you'll still be denied. Now, if you're good at recon or have good excuses for why you have so many, like a dealership shotgunned your app, then you can get by. I'm at 14 or 15 with the last 2 resulting in approvals. The oldest 2 inq will age to 1 year tomorrow.

Not meaning to hijack the thread, but what about cap 1 triple pull, or citi double pull?

Re: Hard pulls vs time

Brian_Earl_Spilner — Tue, 14 May 2019 05:22:10 GMT

@Andypanda wrote:
@Brian_Earl_Spilner wrote:
Regardless of it affecting your score, the inquiries stay on there until they fall off and it will be seen when the report is pulled. If your inq are excessive, you'll still be denied. Now, if you're good at recon or have good excuses for why you have so many, like a dealership shotgunned your app, then you can get by. I'm at 14 or 15 with the last 2 resulting in approvals. The oldest 2 inq will age to 1 year tomorrow.
Not meaning to hijack the thread, but what about cap 1 triple pull, or citi double pull?

Double and triple pulls are done across different bureaus. So, cap1 pulls ex, EQ, and TU. Chase pulls ex and EQ. If you apply for a sync card, they pull TU so they would only see the 1 tu hp. In my case, I average about 14 hp on each bureau so it doesn't matter which they pull.

Re: Hard pulls vs time

sarge12 — Tue, 14 May 2019 06:15:51 GMT

@KJinNC wrote:
I know hard pulls are no longer calculated in the most common FICO scores after a year, and that they drop off your credit report entirely after two years. But, that's all I know, and I'm hoping to fill in some blanks.

Let's suppose that some doofus named KJinNC started trying to build credit without reading this forum or other solid info first, and ended up with 11 hard pulls on EQ in short order. Just hypothetically.

Let's suppose that when he checks preapprovals now, the messages are sometimes about too many recent inquiries.

What happens in a month? Three months? Six months? eight or ten months? Does the impact drop quickly but then a small amount lingers, or does the impact stay about the same for most or all of the 12 months?

And at the other end: even when it's no longer calculated in FICO scores, do a lot of companies still refuse you for having a ton of hard pulls from, say, 15 months ago? Are there certain types of companies or certain types of credit where it matters more or matters less? For example, is it irrelevant for auto loans but makes it hard to get highly desirable credit cards, or vice versa?

Thanks!

The credit score is not the only or even always the main criteria used for a lender to make a lending decision. It is just one piece of info they use, so it might be difficult to judge whether or not you may get approval. Also, how much weight the inqueries have might differ when looking at an applicants info. In general inqueries have full effect on scores for 1 year, and like you stated, are removed from reports after 2 years. The effect on scores can be fairly predictable. The effect on approvals however may vary a great deal. I have about 20 credit cards, a mortgage, and an installment loan, on a very clean thick credit file, and my utilization is very low. For me, 5 inqueries would not even be likely to cause concern with a potential lender. If however, I had fairly high utilization, and a fairly thin file with a couple of late payments, 5 inqueries might be of much greater concern. If I had only been working at a company for 3 months, 5 inqueries might also result in rejected apps. Some people seem to think a credit score is the only important factor, but it is not. It is important, but not often the determinative factor when other very important factors are present. Pre-qualification tests may give more weight than the actual lender will. If you have worked at a stable job for 30 years and have no major baddies on your report, you might be approved where someone with a very high score gets declined. Having many inquries might be indicative of someone who is getting in over their heads, or it might just mean you want more variety in the types of credit cards you want. It can also be that you are chasing rewards and SUB's, and may not use the card much after receiving the SUB. The lending institution will try and determine what your situation is that resulted in a large number of inqueries. For the past few years I will garden for a year or so, then obtain 3 or 4 cards is a short time span, and jump back in the garden.

Re: Hard pulls vs time

KJinNC — Tue, 14 May 2019 12:52:12 GMT

Thanks - it's frustrating that a flurry of hard pulls at the start of my rebuild (about half of which were unnecessary) doom me in a sense to a form of "bad credit" for two years - which will make the overall build process slower, because my scores three or four years from now may still be influenced by what I couldn't qualify for in the next two years. Oh well, live and learn.

In my case, part of it was necessary or at least justifiable (going from zero open accounts to six open accounts), but a lot of it was just silly (applying for unrealistic stuff or applying for a car loan just to see what percentage they'd come up with, with no intention of buying a car soon).

I am not sure how someone with no credit is supposed to get (say) three credit cards, an installment loan and then six months later add a better credit card or an auto loan, without getting into this type of predicament, maybe not quite as extreme. Wish they could just figure out if you were desperate for cards to stay afloat financially, and if not, then don't treat it as such a major factor. "I'm going to pay deposits on some secured cards so I can use the cards and roll them into a bankruptcy I'm about to file," said nobody ever.

Re: Hard pulls vs time

Anonymous — Tue, 14 May 2019 12:19:39 GMT

@Brian_Earl_Spilner wrote:
Regardless of it affecting your score, the inquiries stay on there until they fall off and it will be seen when the report is pulled. If your inq are excessive, you'll still be denied.

A blanket statement of this variety cannot be stated. As the first reply to this thread eluded to, it's very profile-specific.

Two different people can apply for the same exact credit product where one has 5 inquiries present and the other 30 inquiries present and the person with the 30 may be approved where the person with 5 was denied for "too many inquiries." How can that be? Simple, because the profile of the person with the 30 inquiries overall was stronger and represented less risk to that lender than the profile of the person with 5 inquiries.

Re: Hard pulls vs time

Revelate — Tue, 14 May 2019 14:25:31 GMT

KJinNC: nah, you are *supposed* to rack up the accounts and inquiries when you start your build. Frankly if you don’t establish a bunch of accounts out the gate I would argue mathematically you are doing it wrong haha.

Don’t sweat the two year thing, the one year mark is the scoring one and honestly every UW on the planet will be able to tell why you took the inquiries when they look at your report.

Sure some lenders to Brian’s point may look at any inquiries skeptically, but BBS is right too that UW requirements are generally low currently and (to sarge’s point haha) it’s not just your credit that will qualify you for products: a bunch of other factors come into play today and probably that list will expand over time.

ETA: **bleep** I am good at summarizing threads haha. Sorry it’s way too early of a morning to me sitting in LAX.

Re: Hard pulls vs time

Anonymous — Tue, 14 May 2019 14:50:42 GMT

Hello KJ! My comments below in blue.

@KJinNC wrote:
Thanks - it's frustrating that a flurry of hard pulls at the start of my rebuild (about half of which were unnecessary) doom me in a sense to a form of "bad credit" for two years - which will make the overall build process slower, because my scores three or four years from now may still be influenced by what I couldn't qualify for in the next two years. Oh well, live and learn.

You really aren't doomed to bad credit for two years. As others have mentioned your FICO score will ignore all inquiries older than one year. And almost no lenders or CC issuers have additional restrictions about inquiries greater than 1 year old (in fact they probably are looking more at 90 or 180 days).

In my case, part of it was necessary or at least justifiable (going from zero open accounts to six open accounts), but a lot of it was just silly (applying for unrealistic stuff or applying for a car loan just to see what percentage they'd come up with, with no intention of buying a car soon).

I am not sure how someone with no credit is supposed to get (say) three credit cards, an installment loan and then six months later add a better credit card or an auto loan, without getting into this type of predicament, maybe not quite as extreme.

That's actually a somewhat recent shift in public perception. For decades nobody thought lenders ought to give a person with no history of ever using credit many credit accounts in the space of six months. Rather everyone expected that it would be a slow process that took years of proven good behavior. But in a number of ways (not just in the area of credit) it's more common to believe that we are entitled to things that our parents expected they would only get access to slowly (high paying jobs, owning a nice car or house, fancy credit cards, etc.).

Fortunately it is quite possible to develop a good credit profile fairly quickly (quicker than it would have taken my dad, say). You made a few mistakes as you realize but these will vanish almost immediately -- compared with say the mistakes of making late payments or getting into credit card debt. The folks here will be glad to help you out. Just adjust your expectations a bit and you'll be fine.

Re: Hard pulls vs time

SouthJamaica — Tue, 14 May 2019 16:02:24 GMT

@KJinNC wrote:
Thanks - it's frustrating that a flurry of hard pulls at the start of my rebuild (about half of which were unnecessary) doom me in a sense to a form of "bad credit" for two years - which will make the overall build process slower, because my scores three or four years from now may still be influenced by what I couldn't qualify for in the next two years. Oh well, live and learn.

In my case, part of it was necessary or at least justifiable (going from zero open accounts to six open accounts), but a lot of it was just silly (applying for unrealistic stuff or applying for a car loan just to see what percentage they'd come up with, with no intention of buying a car soon).

I am not sure how someone with no credit is supposed to get (say) three credit cards, an installment loan and then six months later add a better credit card or an auto loan, without getting into this type of predicament, maybe not quite as extreme. Wish they could just figure out if you were desperate for cards to stay afloat financially, and if not, then don't treat it as such a major factor. "I'm going to pay deposits on some secured cards so I can use the cards and roll them into a bankruptcy I'm about to file," said nobody ever.

Basically, after I spent some time on this forum and learned how things worked, I figured it this way:

1. First you go through a credit building phase: in this phase you do everything you can to keep your scores good, focusing on utilization, super prompt payment, avoiding sprees and the like, etc, but recognize that your scores will never be great while you're in this phase, due to new accounts and inquiries.

2. Second, after you've got some decent credit accounts, chill out on the new applications, and watch your scores rise.

My problem is I've never fully adapted to phase 2, because it's much less fun than phase 1. Phase 2 is like watching paint dry.

Re: Hard pulls vs time

sarge12 — Tue, 14 May 2019 16:24:28 GMT

@SouthJamaica wrote:
@KJinNC wrote:
Thanks - it's frustrating that a flurry of hard pulls at the start of my rebuild (about half of which were unnecessary) doom me in a sense to a form of "bad credit" for two years - which will make the overall build process slower, because my scores three or four years from now may still be influenced by what I couldn't qualify for in the next two years. Oh well, live and learn.

In my case, part of it was necessary or at least justifiable (going from zero open accounts to six open accounts), but a lot of it was just silly (applying for unrealistic stuff or applying for a car loan just to see what percentage they'd come up with, with no intention of buying a car soon).

I am not sure how someone with no credit is supposed to get (say) three credit cards, an installment loan and then six months later add a better credit card or an auto loan, without getting into this type of predicament, maybe not quite as extreme. Wish they could just figure out if you were desperate for cards to stay afloat financially, and if not, then don't treat it as such a major factor. "I'm going to pay deposits on some secured cards so I can use the cards and roll them into a bankruptcy I'm about to file," said nobody ever.
Basically, after I spent some time on this forum and learned how things worked, I figured it this way:

1. First you go through a credit building phase: in this phase you do everything you can to keep your scores good, focusing on utilization, super prompt payment, avoiding sprees and the like, etc, but recognize that your scores will never be great while you're in this phase, due to new accounts and inquiries.

2. Second, after you've got some decent credit accounts, chill out on the new applications, and watch your scores rise.

My problem is I've never fully adapted to phase 2, because it's much less fun than phase 1. Phase 2 is like watching paint dry.

I guess boredom is as good a reason to acquire more cards as any. I have actually seen some who want certain cards based on how the card looks...I am serious, they want the card because it has something they find appealing in the looks of the card. I have seen some also want a card just because it is made of metal. My Chase Amazon Prime card is metal...what that means to me is I can not shread the thing when it expires. I can't tell you how many people get the Marvel card because of the Marvel character on the card. This is all now normal behavior. I also vape, and one of my vape devices(mods) not only has spinning mirrored led's, if you say I love you to it, it will say me too back to you. It kind of scares me to think somebody bought it because it responds to I love you. I can mentally see some numnut with led's flashing on their face saying I love you to an electronic device in public...that is scary to me.

Re: Hard pulls vs time

KJinNC — Tue, 14 May 2019 16:31:28 GMT

I will admit that I would rather have a card that looks better, though that's not the #1 factor for me. Right now, I think my ideal set of cards would be something like Amex gold, CSP, Citi Double Cash, and Discover. I'm nowhere near getting most of those (my secured Discover will hopefully graduate around the end of the year, and I do have a secured Citi card, but I think it would take a while to work my way from that to the DC), but anyway, that would be what I'd have in my wallet if I had a magic wand. Subject to changing my mind as I learn more or as different products come out. My true ultimate goal is a prime mortgage. Secondary goal is a prime auto loan or lease. Thanks for all information thus far!

Re: Hard pulls vs time

calyx — Tue, 14 May 2019 16:38:11 GMT

@SouthJamaica wrote:
Basically, after I spent some time on this forum and learned how things worked, I figured it this way:

1. First you go through a credit building phase: in this phase you do everything you can to keep your scores good, focusing on utilization, super prompt payment, avoiding sprees and the like, etc, but recognize that your scores will never be great while you're in this phase, due to new accounts and inquiries.

2. Second, after you've got some decent credit accounts, chill out on the new applications, and watch your scores rise.

My problem is I've never fully adapted to phase 2, because it's much less fun than phase 1. Phase 2 is like watching paint dry.

I'm gardening for a minimum of 6th months now, and that Phase 2 statement is so true.
I'm kind of amazed at the number of spreadsheets I've made with my information to try to eat that time.

Re: Hard pulls vs time

sarge12 — Tue, 14 May 2019 16:57:56 GMT

@KJinNC wrote:
I will admit that I would rather have a card that looks better, though that's not the #1 factor for me. Right now, I think my ideal set of cards would be something like Amex gold, CSP, Citi Double Cash, and Discover. I'm nowhere near getting most of those (my secured Discover will hopefully graduate around the end of the year, and I do have a secured Citi card, but I think it would take a while to work my way from that to the DC), but anyway, that would be what I'd have in my wallet if I had a magic wand. Subject to changing my mind as I learn more or as different products come out. My true ultimate goal is a prime mortgage. Secondary goal is a prime auto loan or lease. Thanks for all information thus far!

If your primary goal is to get a prime mortgage, be a bit careful with credit limits that may affect DTI in a negative way, and Fico 08 is not the score used for mortgages. I do think that should be the #1 reason for building credit. Credit scores are a fairly minor consideration for getting a mortgage approved, but is the main factor in setting the interest rate. For approval they will pull a 3B report and examine it line by line. It is not like any other loan approval process in my experience. Once approved, they will take the middle score to set the interest rate. Even perfect scores will not guarantee approval, if other factors raise questions. Job Stability, DTI, arrest record and many other factors come into play. Unless it has changed, mortgage lenders ignore the scores until the loan is approved. They focus more on the reports and everything in the reports.

Re: Hard pulls vs time

KJinNC — Tue, 14 May 2019 17:10:48 GMT

Well, job stability right now would probably appear minimal on paper, though in reality, it's a little better. I have been doing the same job, sitting at the same desk, for the same Fortune 50 since late 2016. However, in April, I was converted from contractor to regular employee. So on paper, I've had my job for a month. Right now, I have almost no debt (I do owe $500 on my Self Lender loan, and whatever little balances are on my secured cards at any given moment, I pay them off as soon as the apps allow). I don't plan to carry balances on cards at any point. The only debt I've considered that could happen prior to a mortgage would be an auto loan. I am not sure if that would help or hurt with the mortgage. Seems it might help my payment history and credit mix, but hurt my DTI. I'm certainly not planning to apply for a mortgage very soon, as the dust hasn't even settled from my burst of new accounts. In reality, I have six new accounts, but only three have appeared so far on my credit reports. I can't even see FICO scores on TU or EX. Just not the right time for me to apply for anything serious.

Re: Hard pulls vs time

DapprD — Tue, 14 May 2019 17:31:45 GMT

I also vape, and one of my vape devices(mods) not only has spinning mirrored led's, if you say I love you to it, it will say me too back to you. It kind of scares me to think somebody bought it because it responds to I love you. I can mentally see some numnut with led's flashing on their face saying I love you to an electronic device in public...that is scary to me.

ROFLMAO !!!

Re: Hard pulls vs time

sarge12 — Tue, 14 May 2019 18:06:27 GMT

@DapprD wrote:
I also vape, and one of my vape devices(mods) not only has spinning mirrored led's, if you say I love you to it, it will say me too back to you. It kind of scares me to think somebody bought it because it responds to I love you. I can mentally see some numnut with led's flashing on their face saying I love you to an electronic device in public...that is scary to me.
ROFLMAO !!!

That was not a joke, if you say let's rock to it, it responds with rock and vape, if you tell the mod to take a break, it will say thank you my friend, oh and when it responds to I love you with me too...it puts a heart in the display. It is called the Joyetech Espion Infinite AI, the AI stands for artificial intelligence, which is ironic to call it intelligence for responding to 9 stupid things you say to get 9 stupider responses. I bought it because it uses dual 21700 batteries, and didn't even know about the AI part. The Chinese factory workers are probably laughing their a$$ off. I of course only use this device at home. As a 60 year old man, carrying that stupid thing in public is about as likely as me wearing a tutu and dancing to swan lake. Just go on Joyetech website and read the stupid things it says to the stupid people who talk to inanimate objects. Now take a break and thank you my friend.

Re: Hard pulls vs time

sarge12 — Tue, 14 May 2019 18:13:36 GMT

Re: Hard pulls vs time

Remedios — Tue, 14 May 2019 18:15:36 GMT

@sarge12 wrote:

@sarge12 I think you just won the internet