topic Re: AAoA and AoOA -- revolving only? in Understanding FICO® Scoring

AAoA and AoOA -- revolving only?

Anonymous — Tue, 21 May 2019 15:42:33 GMT

Hello all. My apologies in advance if this has been thoroughly discussed elsewhere!

I have noticed for a long time a negative reason statement (TU FICO 8 supplied to me by Bank of America) which claims that FICO 8 looks at account age (Age of Oldest Account and Average Age of Accounts) purely in terms of revolving accounts (excluding from consideration loans etc.). Here is the language:

Length of time revolving accounts have been established

FICO® Scores consider the age of a person's oldest revolving account and/or the average age of revolving accounts. Your score was impacted by the relatively low age of your oldest revolving account and/or the average age of your revolving accounts.

Naturally that doesn't mean that FICO doesn't also look at AAoA and AoOA as just accounts in general (including loans). Indeed I have also seen a different reason statement that uses the general language that implicitly includes all account types in its age calculation.

This revolving specific language I have seen on my TU FICO 8 (Bank of America), my EX FICO 9 (Wells Fargo), and my EQ FICO 9 (Navy Fed).

It might also be considered by my EX FICO 8 but I only get two reason codes from my Amex so perhaps I'd see it if I saw four codes.

I also see this revolving-specific reason code on my TU mortgage score (pulled a year ago).

On my particular profile, my oldest account is a loan (a little over 18 years) and my next oldest account is a credit card that is a little over 15 years old. Both are open accounts -- my closed accounts are all younger. All three reports read the same way in this respect. As touches average age, my revolving-specific AAoA is significantly lower than is my general AAoA, since I have quite a few young cards and some old closed loans (10-13 years).

Do lots of other people see this revolving-specific reason code for age?

Re: AAoA and AoOA -- revolving only?

SouthJamaica — Tue, 21 May 2019 17:11:43 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
Hello all. My apologies in advance if this has been thoroughly discussed elsewhere!

I have noticed for a long time a negative reason statement (TU FICO 8 supplied to me by Bank of America) which claims that FICO 8 looks at account age (Age of Oldest Account and Average Age of Accounts) purely in terms of revolving accounts (excluding from consideration loans etc.). Here is the language:

Length of time revolving accounts have been established
FICO® Scores consider the age of a person's oldest revolving account and/or the average age of revolving accounts. Your score was impacted by the relatively low age of your oldest revolving account and/or the average age of your revolving accounts.

Naturally that doesn't mean that FICO doesn't also look at AAoA and AoOA as just accounts in general (including loans). Indeed I have also seen a different reason statement that uses the general language that implicitly includes all account types in its age calculation.

This revolving specific language I have seen on my TU FICO 8 (Bank of America), my EX FICO 9 (Wells Fargo), and my EQ FICO 9 (Navy Fed).

It might also be considered by my EX FICO 8 but I only get two reason codes from my Amex so perhaps I'd see it if I saw four codes.

I also see this revolving-specific reason code on my TU mortgage score (pulled a year ago).

On my particular profile, my oldest account is a loan (a little over 18 years) and my next oldest account is a credit card that is a little over 15 years old. Both are open accounts -- my closed accounts are all younger. All three reports read the same way in this respect. As touches average age, my revolving-specific AAoA is significantly lower than is my general AAoA, since I have quite a few young cards and some old closed loans (10-13 years).

Do lots of other people see this revolving-specific reason code for age?

Yes, when I go to the BOA site and look at my TU FICO 8 score I have the exact same language:

Length of time revolving accounts have been established

Re: AAoA and AoOA -- revolving only?

Anonymous — Tue, 21 May 2019 20:07:28 GMT

I can’t speak on that CGID, however an interesting parallel that you may want to know is that I have discovered separate reason codes at EX2 for too many credit balances and separately for too many revolving balances.

It’s a very interesting question that you posit though, and then it naturally follows that if so, we must ask upon which age metric are points granted upon, or both?

Re: AAoA and AoOA -- revolving only?

Revelate — Tue, 21 May 2019 21:03:53 GMT

I don't think so, yes reason codes for longest revolver and longest installment exist but I've typically seen them on industry option scorecards; I do see it on TU FICO 9 currently though, not hugely surprised that it's in 8 too given reason code access completely sucks for FICO 8 Classic.

That said, I've been right on the button for AAOA for both 2 years and 5 year breakpoints for all accounts on EX and EQ, I doubt that calculation is different on TU TBH.. Can't trust the verbiage around the reason codes, hate to say it but even myFICO has had errors in the text they put around reason codes to explain them in the past, I've caught two of them personally.

Frankly I don't think AOOA amounts to much anymore on FICO 8/9 but that is conjecture on my part.

ETA: Actually I know they're separate, from a MF report from a little bit ago that longest revolving is a different reason code than AAOA anyway.

3. You have a short credit history.

4. You have not established a long revolving and/or open- ended account credit history.

Re: AAoA and AoOA -- revolving only?

Anonymous — Wed, 22 May 2019 01:40:25 GMT

Another spinoff question I'd have CGID related to your topic here on age of revolvers is whether or not it's considering only open revolvers or also closed ones. I see the same language as you with my oldest open revolver being a little over 4 years in age, but my oldest closed revolver (also my oldest account) is about 18 years in age.

Re: AAoA and AoOA -- revolving only?

Revelate — Wed, 22 May 2019 02:20:30 GMT

If it was open only then your 850 is at an AOOA of 4 years BBS

Like maybe on a ruthlessly optimized file or it is no longer a scorecard segmentation device.

Re: AAoA and AoOA -- revolving only?

SouthJamaica — Wed, 22 May 2019 02:53:44 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
Another spinoff question I'd have CGID related to your topic here on age of revolvers is whether or not it's considering only open revolvers or also closed ones. I see the same language as you with my oldest open revolver being a little over 4 years in age, but my oldest closed revolver (also my oldest account) is about 18 years in age.

If your oldest revolver/account was open instead of closed, I don't think it would make a difference. My oldest revolver, which is also my oldest account, is open. It's 30 years & 10 months old.

Re: AAoA and AoOA -- revolving only?

Anonymous — Wed, 22 May 2019 14:16:48 GMT

@SouthJamaica wrote:
@Anonymous wrote:

Do lots of other people see this revolving-specific reason code for age?
Yes, when I go to the BOA site and look at my TU FICO 8 score I have the exact same language:

Thanks, SouthJ! Do you have access to a different credit monitoring service that gives you your TU FICO 8? If so, does that CMS give you four negative reason codes and have you ever seen the revolving-specific age language appear in any of them?

I see the language in my FICO 9 scores (EQ FICO 9 from Navy Fed and EX FICO 9 from Wells Fargo). I don't have access to FICO 8 on EQ and only have two reason statements on my FICO 8 EX from Amex, so it might be happening there as well. And as I mentioned earlier I also have seen it on at least one of my mortgage scores.

I'd be very interested in hearing all the scores on which you have seen it. And if you have not seen it on a certain score, whether your CMS supplies four statements.

Also interesting that you see the negative statement with your oldest account being an open revolving over 31 years old. Clearly AoOA can't be the culprit. But the language certainly includes AAoA as a concern. If you had to guess what your AAoA was (based on revolving accounts only) would a rough guess be? Some scoring models analyze the difference between AoOA and AAoA. When there is a huge difference such models flag that and penalize you for it -- presumably because it is a marker for a person who has opened a large amount of accounts in a few years.

Re: AAoA and AoOA -- revolving only?

Anonymous — Wed, 22 May 2019 14:25:52 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
Another spinoff question I'd have CGID related to your topic here on age of revolvers is whether or not it's considering only open revolvers or also closed ones. I see the same language as you with my oldest open revolver being a little over 4 years in age, but my oldest closed revolver (also my oldest account) is about 18 years in age.

Hi BBS. See my last post (to SouthJ). I'd be very interested in hearing more about what scoring models and bureaus you see this in and which you do not, and also info about the CMS providing the score. I'd love to find someone displaying this negative reason code from a....

TU FICO 8 score not sourced from Bank of America

FICO 8 score from EQ or EX

Bankcard Enhanced or Auto Enhanced model

FICO 9 model (I see it with EQ and EX -- do not have TU access)

Re: AAoA and AoOA -- revolving only?

SouthJamaica — Wed, 22 May 2019 16:46:25 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
@SouthJamaica wrote:
@Anonymous wrote:

Do lots of other people see this revolving-specific reason code for age?
Yes, when I go to the BOA site and look at my TU FICO 8 score I have the exact same language:
Thanks, SouthJ! Do you have access to a different credit monitoring service that gives you your TU FICO 8?

Yes

If so, does that CMS give you four negative reason codes

TU 8 from Discover (5/10/19) provided just one
TU 8 from MyFICO (5/6/19) provided just one

and have you ever seen the revolving-specific age language appear in any of them?

I don't know what I've seen historically, I never paid attention in that much detail

I see the language in my FICO 9 scores (EQ FICO 9 from Navy Fed and EX FICO 9 from Wells Fargo). I don't have access to FICO 8 on EQ and only have two reason statements on my FICO 8 EX from Amex, so it might be happening there as well.

And as I mentioned earlier I also have seen it on at least one of my mortgage scores.

I'd be very interested in hearing all the scores on which you have seen it.

On 5/6/19 the revolving-specific age code appeared in:
-EQ FICO 9, Auto 9, and Bankcard 9
-TU FICO 4, Auto 8, Auto 4, Bankcard 8, FICO 9, Auto 9, Bankcard 9
-EX FICO 9, Auto 9, Bankcard 9

And if you have not seen it on a certain score, whether your CMS supplies four statements.

The above are from MyFICO, which usually gives 4 statements.

Also interesting that you see the negative statement with your oldest account being an open revolving over 31 years old. Clearly AoOA can't be the culprit. But the language certainly includes AAoA as a concern. If you had to guess what your AAoA was (based on revolving accounts only) would a rough guess be?

If it were based on revolving accounts only it would probably be close to what it is including the installment accounts, which is less than 4 years. My installment accounts are all relatively recent reindeer games loans which came from @Revelate's poisoning my mind on this forum [except for one auto loan which I treated like a reindeer games loan and paid off in 6 months]

Some scoring models analyze the difference between AoOA and AAoA. When there is a huge difference such models flag that and penalize you for it -- presumably because it is a marker for a person who has opened a large amount of accounts in a few years.

My profile would certainly fit the bill for that, since there are only one or two old accounts, and a whole mess of young accounts.

Re: AAoA and AoOA -- revolving only?

Anonymous — Thu, 23 May 2019 01:21:10 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
TU FICO 8 score not sourced from Bank of America

TU FICO 8 from Synchrony (Lowe's):

Re: AAoA and AoOA -- revolving only?

Anonymous — Thu, 23 May 2019 01:26:35 GMT

TU FICO 4:

Re: AAoA and AoOA -- revolving only?

Anonymous — Thu, 23 May 2019 01:27:47 GMT

Interesting that my BCE EQ8 (Citi) reason code just states "accounts" not "revolving accounts" with the rest of the reason statement otherwise the same.

Re: AAoA and AoOA -- revolving only?

Anonymous — Thu, 23 May 2019 01:42:36 GMT

So far it sounds like the reason statement is limited to the various flavors of TU FICO 8 (Classic, BCE, Auto), TU FICO 04, and all three bureaus of FICO 9.

We don't seem to be seeing it with EQ or EX (except FICO 9).

I'd love to see if someone can give a counterexample, e.g....

FICO 8 EQ

FICO 8 EX

FICO 8 EQ BCE

FICO 98 EX

FICO 04 EQ

It seems like we have completely ruled out the possibility that it was some artifact of Bank of America's CMS.

Re: AAoA and AoOA -- revolving only?

SouthJamaica — Thu, 23 May 2019 03:20:29 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
So far it sounds like the reason statement is limited to the various flavors of TU FICO 8 (Classic, BCE, Auto), TU FICO 04, and all three bureaus of FICO 9.

We don't seem to be seeing it with EQ or EX (except FICO 9).

I'd love to see if someone can give a counterexample, e.g....
FICO 8 EQ
FICO 8 EX
FICO 8 EQ BCE
FICO 98 EX
FICO 04 EQ

It seems like we have completely ruled out the possibility that it was some artifact of Bank of America's CMS.

Agreed.

Re: AAoA and AoOA -- revolving only?

Revelate — Thu, 23 May 2019 04:41:59 GMT

This:

FICO® Scores consider the age of a person's oldest revolving account and/or the average age of revolving accounts. Your score was impacted by the relatively low age of your oldest revolving account and/or the average age of your revolving accounts.

Is fluff.

I call BS on the theory that AAOA is only revolving; there is demonstrated proof via reason codes already that it is counted separately and concrete datapoints score wise as well.

Re: AAoA and AoOA -- revolving only?

Anonymous — Thu, 23 May 2019 12:21:05 GMT

@Revelate wrote:

I call BS on the theory that AAOA is only revolving; there is demonstrated proof via reason codes already that it is counted separately and concrete datapoints score wise as well.

Perhaps I'm reading what you wrote above incorrectly. It sounds like you're saying that it's BS that only revolvers are considered, but then suggest that they obviously are considered separately based on what we know.

Re: AAoA and AoOA -- revolving only?

SouthJamaica — Thu, 23 May 2019 12:26:51 GMT

@Revelate wrote:
This:

FICO® Scores consider the age of a person's oldest revolving account and/or the average age of revolving accounts. Your score was impacted by the relatively low age of your oldest revolving account and/or the average age of your revolving accounts.

Is fluff.

I call BS on the theory that AAOA is only revolving; there is demonstrated proof via reason codes already that it is counted separately and concrete datapoints score wise as well.

I didn't interpret @Anonymous 's thread as espousing a theory that installment accounts aren't counted in average age of accounts. I just interpreted it as a quest for understanding why in some scoring models there is a negative reason code referencing the age of "revolving and/or open-ended" accounts rather than the broader "credit" accounts.

Re: AAoA and AoOA -- revolving only?

Anonymous — Thu, 23 May 2019 14:25:51 GMT

@SouthJamaica wrote:

I didn't interpret @Anonymous 's thread as espousing a theory that installment accounts aren't counted in average age of accounts. I just interpreted it as a quest for understanding why in some scoring models there is a negative reason code referencing the age of "revolving and/or open-ended" accounts rather than the broader "credit" accounts.

Indeed you are right, SouthJ. This is why I added this paragraph in the top post:

Thus there is no question that all FICO models have scoring factors that look at AAoA and AoOA with loans, credit cards, etc. all treated the same. The question is whether some models might in addition to that also look at AAoA and AoOA purely in terms of revolving accounts, as those revolving-specific negative reason statements seem to imply.

I have some scores with both the revolving-specific statement and the more general statement listed as separate problems hurting my score.

Re: AAoA and AoOA -- revolving only?

Revelate — Thu, 23 May 2019 18:38:02 GMT

There were a couple of mentions of AAOA somehow being split (and it's in the awkward thread title too), and I wanted to concretely state that it is not. All OC tradeline accounts are considered unless there's some discount of the tradeline like dispute or FICO 8 AU abuse algorithm.

There's separate length of revolving and installment tradelines independent of each other; the takeaways here as I see it are:

1) These apply to Classic scorecards not just industry options

2) AOOA might be different than what anyone thought, not a real way to test that as there's no reason codes for total oldest account TBH other than perhaps otherwise unexplained scoreshifts at the beginning of the month... the EX service might be able to tease that out.

AAOA is still the same as we understood it, that random BOFA verbiage is just fluff, though I would conjecture on Birdman's data and say that the typical Short Credit History now is explicitly AAOA and not AOOA at all.