topic Re: Is it worth the effort: AZE2vs 3 (w/ AU) on FICO 2? in Understanding FICO® Scoring

Update: FICO2 experiment (is it worth it?)

calyx — Sat, 07 Dec 2019 17:57:51 GMT

December 2019 update & summary:

This all started because I have an AU and I want to app for a card with an institution who pulls FICO2.
YES, my FICO8s were nearly 800, but my FICO2 was just over 700 (FICO2 liked me dirty and old, not clean and young); AZEO or any micromanaging is generally beyond the work I want to do for my credit score.

Instead this had turned into a crazy experiment - towards the end, you'll see spreadsheets with more details sussed out, and once I app for the card I want (for good or ill), I will document the crash and burn of FICO2 as I let everything report again, because after working to make it pretty, I will enjoy not working to make it crash (I'm a masochist like that).

Maybe this will help others figure out if they want to go through the effort - but at least it'll entertain me.

Summary:
With 8 reporting cards (including an AU): AZE2 vs AZE3 is not worth additional effort (imo). But AZE1 vs AZE2 *is* worth the effort if you can manage it. My issue was getting the AU to report to 0 because I was carrying a balance on another card (0%) and I could not get to AZE1 without AU going to 0. Luckily, it was a chase card and AU had gotten another card and moved most of their spend to that card anyway, so PIF early was not an issue.

Original post:

Is it worth the effort: AZE2vs 3 (w/ AU) on FICO 2?

I've been reading through the forums, and I haven't quite answered my question, so apologies if this has been discussed/asked and I missed the thread.

I would like to apply for a product in a few months that uses FICO2.
My understadning is that I will get the best results with AZEO, but I can't get all the way down there.

I am an AU on a card giving me a hefty AAoA bump, but that's the person's only card, so it always carries a balance (usually <5-8%, nothing bad; PIF monthly).
I also have a 0% finance card that I'm carrying a sizable balance on (<8%, but it's still 4 digits and I have no intention on paying it off early).

With this - at best (with effort), I can do AZE2. Without effort, I can easily AZE3. Have people here seen much of a difference on AZE2/AZE3? If not, I'd rather not change my spend patterns and keep maximizing my cash/points back.

Thanks!

Re: Is it worth the effort: AZE2vs 3 (w/ AU) on FICO 2?

Anonymous — Fri, 27 Sep 2019 16:09:55 GMT

I guess you'd have to look at where your Fico 2 score lands relative to what the prospective lender with which you're going to product app requires for the best terms/rate. If you're already in an ideal place, no need to sweat the few points you may miss out on with AZE2 or AZE3. Another factor that may matter is your total number of accounts, as the percentage of accounts with a balance can come into play. For example, someone at AZE3 that's got 5 total accounts would likely see a different scoring change than someone that went to AZE3 with 15 total accounts.

Really the best thing you can do is some simple testing on your own. You said you've got a couple of months, so you could try AZE2/AZE3 and pull your Fico 2 score and see how it reacts.

Re: Is it worth the effort: AZE2vs 3 (w/ AU) on FICO 2?

calyx — Fri, 27 Sep 2019 16:18:12 GMT

I have Experian's monitoring/score service, so it's easy to check my FICO2 daily.
I'm just fundamentally lazy and was hoping collective knowledge would mean I didn't have to do my own work

On EX, I have 7 open revolvers, 1 closed, 2 installments, and 1 AU (installment), for a grand total of 11 accounts (8 revolvers). I think <30% revolvers with balances is usually what I see cited and one/1 AU would fall under that at least.

And I do have some time to play, so there's always that. I've got a few days before my next card reports, so I can start knocking off balances soon.

Re: Is it worth the effort: AZE2vs 3 (w/ AU) on FICO 2?

Anonymous — Sat, 28 Sep 2019 03:28:21 GMT

@calyx Personally find it to stressful to pay az. Based onthe scores in your sig 770 and up your are not going to get a better deal by pushing it. AZ involves almost daily payments and hours of micro managing I have better things todo with my time. You might get 3 to 5 points but at 770 that is not going to get you a better rate or limit. DW score was arround 770 when she got her Chase Freedom card. With that score she got their best apr and large limit $21,700 When we financed our new Jeep 1 1/2 years ago we got navy's best rate 2.99% with similar scores. As our scores now hover between 790 and 830 I find it harder to cli because any balances we carry are usually under 5% cranberry and lenders mke money off people carrying balances not payng them most of the time or using 0% bt. I will say I like the $5,000 0% fee plan it amex gave us 24 months as a promo however. It paid our taxes.

Re: Is it worth the effort: AZE2vs 3 (w/ AU) on FICO 2?

Anonymous — Sat, 28 Sep 2019 08:31:57 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
AZ involves almost daily payments and hours of micro managing...

I mean, I guess it's different for everyone, but I personally have never found AZEO implementation to involve anything more than 1 or 2 extra payments just before statement cut and no more than 5-10 minutes of invested time to do so. I can see how it may become an nuisance if one were to micromange it month after month, but we're only talking about a single cycle as prep for an upcoming app.

Re: Is it worth the effort: AZE2vs 3 (w/ AU) on FICO 2?

Anonymous — Sat, 28 Sep 2019 19:09:30 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
@Anonymous wrote:
AZ involves almost daily payments and hours of micro managing...
I mean, I guess it's different for everyone, but I personally have never found AZEO implementation to involve anything more than 1 or 2 extra payments just before statement cut and no more than 5-10 minutes of invested time to do so. I can see how it may become an nuisance if one were to micromange it month after month, but we're only talking about a single cycle as prep for an upcoming app.

Dw and I have about 25 cards between the two of us. Most get about 1 transaction per month and about 6 get regular use. We do max points/cash back. You still have to go in every few days and check balances and make payments. If we are going to keep cranberry low you have to be on the look out for that small $5 charge that came in right at the end of the cycle. I don't trust when cc report to the agencies. I can't tie several balances on the end of the cycle statements back what is reported onthe credit report. If I were doing this for only one month I would consider paying everything off but one month and not sing anything but one card the following month. I just find this to stressful for the points. I am sitting on 815 fico across the board and I suppose I could work the cards for 3 or 4 more points but what would that get me? Our Jeep is at 2.99% Most of our cards are prime and at the lowest or next to lowest % rate.

Re: Is it worth the effort: AZE2vs 3 (w/ AU) on FICO 2?

calyx — Sat, 28 Sep 2019 19:50:37 GMT

On my FICO 2, I do see high balances/too many cards as negative reason codes, and I don't practice AZE-anything, since I use every one of my cards and I'm done rebuilding. I also let my card report 'natural' utilization now (I was controlling for <30%)

I am paid 1x/month, so what I normally do is log in on payday, pay everything, move any leftover cash (above ~250) out of my checking to a high yield savings and then let it ride til the next month (I follow a zero based budget, so the cash is always there). AZ-anything would be a total change in how I try to manage my cards, and I went hands off to stop with the anxiety I built up over my rebuild over micromanaging (thanks to discussion on MF, particularly in the garden). I have not changed/moved any due dates, because the 1/month payment works out fine, as I'm paying cards either after the statement cuts or before it's due anyway. The only two exceptions are my auto & student loans, which are auto deducted (rate cuts if I do that). Maybe I'll reevaluate in Dec or Jan since I'm planning on apping in the new year.

I appreciate the advice!

Re: Is it worth the effort: AZE2vs 3 (w/ AU) on FICO 2?

Anonymous — Sun, 29 Sep 2019 03:09:14 GMT

If your carrying a high balance on a low credit line, nothing you can do will help other than paying the debt down/off.
And stop using it for awhile.
After 8 months or so attempt to boost the available credit line, use it moderatly pay it off and garden again for a few months, and try to increase the credit limit yet again.
It's actually best to have very few cards that have built credit up over a longer period of time, than to have a large portfolio of access to credit with smaller credit lines.

Smaller credit lines are usually lines of credit below $2,500.00.

Example if you have 11 open lines of various revolving credit, such as closed, and open loop cards, and you carry a high balance on the open loop cards, but low balances on closed loop (store branded cards higher default rate), and you apply for car financing (I did), also I did John Deere).
I was approved for $16k used car financing as I was inquiring about one particular model I liked despite the year it was released.
And secondly was looking to buy a lawn mower/tractor, and JD approved me for $15k.
However that caused my credit score to tumble on an extraordinary scale.
Although technically they both fall within the same category, and FICO even advertizes that motor vehicle financing as well as mortgage financing via shopping the best rates are treated as a single inquiry, I have found this is not true at all, Because the creditor reporting did not match the lender type accordingly. In other words the bank.FICO, lender have no set definition of status, and may allow for arbitrary reporting, that places an inquiry into a hard pull that is not associative even though by design is applicable. That's a fallicy in the reporting structure.
I know this may appear to be an off topic response, but there is a connection of mutual education and learning from this post.

Re: Is it worth the effort: AZE2vs 3 (w/ AU) on FICO 2?

Anonymous — Sun, 29 Sep 2019 04:06:23 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
Dw and I have about 25 cards between the two of us. Most get about 1 transaction per month and about 6 get regular use.

It sounds to me then if you were to set up ~19 of them to auto-PIF your current balance 2-3 days before your statement cuts that you wouldn't have to worry about those. That would just leave your other 6 more frequently used cards, which you could set up auto-pay for your previous statement balance. Then on a month where you wanted to micromanage AZEO (or AZEx) you'd need only log into those 6 accounts (say) 2 days before statement cut and make another payment if necessary. It's all in the eye of the individual if that process constitutes significant micromanaging/time. Some would argue yes, others would say no.

Re: Is it worth the effort: AZE2vs 3 (w/ AU) on FICO 2?

randomguy1 — Sun, 29 Sep 2019 04:37:52 GMT

No one with an 800 FICO needs to AZEO. Don’t even know why that is in discussion. 🙄

Re: Is it worth the effort: AZE2vs 3 (w/ AU) on FICO 2?

Anonymous — Sun, 29 Sep 2019 06:14:23 GMT

@Calyx, FICO 2 and FICO 8 are very different when it comes to a number of accounts with a balance. FICO 2 is much more sensitive.

Don’t quote me but I think the line there is 20% of revolvers. It may be accounts, I don’t know. If the AU card you are on is PIF, why don’t you have her PIF before the reporting date? Then it would also show zero. But then it looks as if you said the AU was installment? So I’m not quite sure?

I would also note that even with my clean aged thick file, I have received less than the best rates, even with 800s for my scores and <1% utilization, so optimizing scores can help. But as we know it depends on lender YMMV. But if they are using version 2, they are tough. Is it Amalgamated Bank of Chicago?

@Inkco If I’m understanding correctly, you’re wondering why a HP for auto financing and a HP for a credit card from John Deere are not de-duplicated.

Unless I’m misunderstanding, that’s because one HP was for an installment loan while the other one was for a revolving line of credit. Mortgage inquiries and auto inquiries are de-duplicated, with either a 14 or 45 day window depending on the version.

Re: Is it worth the effort: AZE2vs 3 (w/ AU) on FICO 2?

calyx — Sun, 29 Sep 2019 16:39:00 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
@Calyx, FICO 2 and FICO 8 are very different when it comes to a number of accounts with a balance. FICO 2 is much more sensitive.

Don’t quote me but I think the line there is 20% of revolvers. It may be accounts, I don’t know. If the AU card you are on is PIF, why don’t you have her PIF before the reporting date? Then it would also show zero. But then it looks as if you said the AU was installment? So I’m not quite sure?

I would also note that even with my clean aged thick file, I have received less than the best rates, even with 800s for my scores and <1% utilization, so optimizing scores can help. But as we know it depends on lender YMMV. But if they are using version 2, they are tough. Is it Amalgamated Bank of Chicago?

I hate asking for anything re: the AU card, because I'm just happy to be on it, and don't wish to overstep (though there might be some sweet talking going on if it comes down to it). AU card is Chase, so asking for an early payment only really needs to be a couple of days before apping, if I want to push it.

The AU isn't an installment - my other revolver carrying a balance is a 48mo/0% card, so I'm paying that one off over time (it's currently at 8.6%). I do have 2 installments, but they're pretty boring (student loan @ 65% util, auto @ 90%, aggregate @ 76%, of course, all will be lower @ future app date).

I know that FICO2 is way touchier than FICO8 on utilization/number of cards being used - currently my FICO 2 is 711, which isn't too terrible, but I'd like it to be better. 20% of revolvers would be great, since I can make that happen; 20% of all accounts would sink me, because of my 2 installments. It's part of why I was asking about AZE 1 vs 2 - I know FICO2 is touchy, but I wasn't sure HOW touchy. To be fair, I do have the tools to try to find out - I'm just fundamentally lazy about reinventing the wheel if someone else had figured it out.

The bank is SDFCU, and I know they're a bit more conservative, and I don't quite match up to their preferred customer (outside the area, not currently a gov't employee). I am already a member, and I'm keeping that relationship active as possible, and keeping (what I think should be) enough money there to show that I am serious about their product.

Thank you so much for your reply!

Re: Is it worth the effort: AZE2vs 3 (w/ AU) on FICO 2?

Remedios — Sun, 29 Sep 2019 16:51:47 GMT

@calyx Right now my sensitive, touchy EX FICO2 is 743, with single card reporting under 9%

In about 5 days, there will be two more cards reporting balances, so I'll let you know how it affected my score. I'll be at 3 out of 9 reporting, with aggregate around 3%-4%. No AU accounts.

Re: Is it worth the effort: AZE2vs 3 (w/ AU) on FICO 2?

calyx — Sun, 29 Sep 2019 16:58:39 GMT

@Remedios wrote:
@calyx Right now my sensitive, touchy EX FICO2 is 743, with single card reporting under 9%

In about 5 days, there will be two more cards reporting balances, so I'll let you know how it affected my score. I'll be at 3 out of 9 reporting, with aggregate around 3%-4%. No AU accounts.

Thanks - I super appreciate it!

Re: Is it worth the effort: AZE2vs 3 (w/ AU) on FICO 2?

Anonymous — Mon, 30 Sep 2019 07:53:44 GMT

@Remedios Can you get the score at 2/9 and 3/9? Do you have credit works? If so that would be awesome! Because 2/9 put you over the 20% line so we should see an increase, if it’s revolvers. Do you have any installment open? If I may ask.

@Calyx No problem at all. I just hope everything works out perfectly for you. Yeah, sweet talking a couple days before the app might be the best course of action if you can decide to take that path!

When do you need to know this by? I might be able to go check some of my records to try to get some score changes too.

Re: Is it worth the effort: AZE2vs 3 (w/ AU) on FICO 2?

Remedios — Mon, 30 Sep 2019 12:26:03 GMT

Yes and no
I wont be able to get 2/9 and 3/9 separately as both cards are USB cards, so most likely will show up at the same time because of how they report, but I'll watch for it.
I should be able to get 4/9 separately once Chase reports on the 9th

Re: Is it worth the effort: AZE2vs 3 (w/ AU) on FICO 2?

Remedios — Mon, 30 Sep 2019 12:26:49 GMT

No open loans, closed ones only.

Re: Is it worth the effort: AZE2vs 3 (w/ AU) on FICO 2?

calyx — Mon, 30 Sep 2019 12:57:32 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:

@Calyx No problem at all. I just hope everything works out perfectly for you. Yeah, sweet talking a couple days before the app might be the best course of action if you can decide to take that path!

When do you need to know this by? I might be able to go check some of my records to try to get some score changes too.

I plan to app sometime in January 2020, so plenty of time.
If I get itchy finger - December at the earliest (I want my AOYA at minimum of 6months, which is 12/19, along with making sure that they see plenty of banking activity out of me as well).

Off to find out what the favorite meal is. Something, something best way to a heart...

Re: Is it worth the effort: AZE2vs 3 (w/ AU) on FICO 2?

Anonymous — Mon, 30 Sep 2019 22:22:19 GMT

Smart!

Re: Is it worth the effort: AZE2vs 3 (w/ AU) on FICO 2?

Remedios — Tue, 01 Oct 2019 12:04:29 GMT

Okay, so looks like there was some aging involved so currently

Fico 2 751

Fico 8 auto 759

Fico 2 auto 740

Fico Bankcard 8 784

Fico Bankcard 3 726

Fico Bankcard 2 738

Next two should reflect update on 4th or 5th. Unfortunatly, both will show up at the same time.