topic Re: How do I keep myself in the 800 club? in Understanding FICO® Scoring

How do I keep myself in the 800 club?

Anonymous — Fri, 13 Dec 2019 15:28:15 GMT

I fought long and hard and worked diligently to run my three scores into the 800 club, using every technique I found on these boards. It worked as you can see. Now the question is - how do I stay there?

The Facts: My credit file consists of 5 open accounts - three Amex cards (Amex Everyday, $10,000 CL Bal $128, Delta Gold, CL $21,000 Bal $1,500 and USAA CL $4,500 Bal $0), one Chase (Chase Amazon CL $4,500 Bal $150) and my mortgage (Orig Bal $100,000 current Bal $47,300). Everything else is paid satis and closed. I pay all 4 credit cards in full every Friday so there is never any chance of a late payment and this pretty much does the AZEO strategy. My AAOA is short - 2 years. I have 1 inq on my CRA, and that is a year old. I am terrified of apping for any credit because of the points I will lose because of it.

The Question: The last time I paid off my mortgage (different property which I now own free and clear) I lost 60 points on all three bureaus. I plan to pay off this mortgage in May 2020. Doing this reckless thing will drop me out of the 800 club, possibly permenantly. Are there any suggestions on how I can stay in the 800 club?

Re: How do I keep myself in the 800 club?

FireMedic1 — Fri, 13 Dec 2019 20:36:34 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
I fought long and hard and worked diligently to run my three scores into the 800 club, using every technique I found on these boards. It worked as you can see. Now the question is - how do I stay there?

The Facts: My credit file consists of 5 open accounts - three Amex cards (Amex Everyday, $10,000 CL Bal $128, Delta Gold, CL $21,000 Bal $1,500 and USAA CL $4,500 Bal $0), one Chase (Chase Amazon CL $4,500 Bal $150) and my mortgage (Orig Bal $100,000 current Bal $47,300). Everything else is paid satis and closed. I pay all 4 credit cards in full every Friday so there is never any chance of a late payment and this pretty much does the AZEO strategy. My AAOA is short - 2 years. I have 1 inq on my CRA, and that is a year old. I am terrified of apping for any credit because of the points I will lose because of it.

The Question: The last time I paid off my mortgage (different property which I now own free and clear) I lost 60 points on all three bureaus. I plan to pay off this mortgage in May 2020. Doing this reckless thing will drop me out of the 800 club, possibly permenantly. Are there any suggestions on how I can stay in the 800 club?

Having one report a balance is the real AZEO. You stated you pay them off every Friday. So have 1 report <8.9%. Losing your only loan hurts some. Do you have any other loans at all?

Re: How do I keep myself in the 800 club?

Brian_Earl_Spilner — Fri, 13 Dec 2019 20:46:15 GMT

How do you stay there?

Pay your bills on time, don't use your credit, and don't apply for more.

Re: How do I keep myself in the 800 club?

HeavenOhio — Fri, 13 Dec 2019 21:24:10 GMT

I have no installment loans, and all the scores that myFICO offers are above 800 except for two FICO 8 auto scores. Those come in at 789 and 796.

Just stay the course. Your scores will respond to age. You have quite a few aging points still on the table.

As far as losing your open installment loan, take comfort in the fact that FICO 8 is hit the hardest. A lot of your scores will be just as happy to see the closed loan. The scores used for mortgages, which are arguably the most important, will likely stick pretty close to where they are now.

Keep in mind that if you really need to impress, AZEO is available to you. That's where you report a single card balance of at least $5 but not much more. You really shouldn't need that, though. A more worthwhile endeavor would be to avoid the "all cards at zero" penalty as that's pretty significant. But as you know, those points will come back. If you make an occasional stop at "all cards at zero," it's no biggie unless you're in the middle of a mortgage app.

The bottom line is that your scores are good, and you have a cushion. Perfection isn't necessary.

Re: How do I keep myself in the 800 club?

SouthJamaica — Fri, 13 Dec 2019 22:14:08 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
I fought long and hard and worked diligently to run my three scores into the 800 club, using every technique I found on these boards. It worked as you can see. Now the question is - how do I stay there?

The Facts: My credit file consists of 5 open accounts - three Amex cards (Amex Everyday, $10,000 CL Bal $128, Delta Gold, CL $21,000 Bal $1,500 and USAA CL $4,500 Bal $0), one Chase (Chase Amazon CL $4,500 Bal $150) and my mortgage (Orig Bal $100,000 current Bal $47,300). Everything else is paid satis and closed. I pay all 4 credit cards in full every Friday so there is never any chance of a late payment and this pretty much does the AZEO strategy. My AAOA is short - 2 years. I have 1 inq on my CRA, and that is a year old. I am terrified of apping for any credit because of the points I will lose because of it.

The Question: The last time I paid off my mortgage (different property which I now own free and clear) I lost 60 points on all three bureaus. I plan to pay off this mortgage in May 2020. Doing this reckless thing will drop me out of the 800 club, possibly permenantly. Are there any suggestions on how I can stay in the 800 club?

Don't worry about it. Pay off the mortgage and don't sweat it. You'll inch your way back into the 800's as your profile ages, doing just what you are doing now.

Re: How do I keep myself in the 800 club?

Anonymous — Fri, 13 Dec 2019 23:14:38 GMT

@FireMedic1 wrote:
@Anonymous wrote:
I fought long and hard and worked diligently to run my three scores into the 800 club, using every technique I found on these boards. It worked as you can see. Now the question is - how do I stay there?

The Facts: My credit file consists of 5 open accounts - three Amex cards (Amex Everyday, $10,000 CL Bal $128, Delta Gold, CL $21,000 Bal $1,500 and USAA CL $4,500 Bal $0), one Chase (Chase Amazon CL $4,500 Bal $150) and my mortgage (Orig Bal $100,000 current Bal $47,300). Everything else is paid satis and closed. I pay all 4 credit cards in full every Friday so there is never any chance of a late payment and this pretty much does the AZEO strategy. My AAOA is short - 2 years. I have 1 inq on my CRA, and that is a year old. I am terrified of apping for any credit because of the points I will lose because of it.

The Question: The last time I paid off my mortgage (different property which I now own free and clear) I lost 60 points on all three bureaus. I plan to pay off this mortgage in May 2020. Doing this reckless thing will drop me out of the 800 club, possibly permenantly. Are there any suggestions on how I can stay in the 800 club?
Having one report a balance is the real AZEO. You stated you pay them off every Friday. So have 1 report <8.9%. Losing your only loan hurts some. Do you have any other loans at all?

I have no other loans and once I pay this one off I have no debt at all except for the week's credit card use.

Re: How do I keep myself in the 800 club?

atarvuzdar — Sat, 14 Dec 2019 00:00:39 GMT

I think being debt free is a higher goal than being >800. Way to go! But if you wanted to try to stay above 800 taking out a small installment loan would probably help. While it would be an inquiry and a new account since your credit report age is so young there probably wouldn't be too much damage and that any ding would go away relatively quickly--and wouldn't be anywhere near the damage your score will take from having no open installments.

Aside from that, just letting your credit report age will help you out nicely.

Re: How do I keep myself in the 800 club?

chhull00 — Sat, 14 Dec 2019 00:06:42 GMT

You have already proved as your credit is by far beyond excellent, so you know how to get there, do what you have been doing, relax and enjoy the ride, no need to excess, by the way congrats on your scores

Re: How do I keep myself in the 800 club?

jamie123 — Sat, 14 Dec 2019 02:46:23 GMT

Now the question is - how do I stay there?

I am terrified of apping for any credit because of the points I will lose because of it.

You need to do just the opposite of being terrified of apping for new credit. You need to build a thick file that has about 8 credit cards as a foundation. Credit cards are really the only credit account that you can keep open for life. You can do this a conservative way by getting 1 credit card a year for the next 4 years or perhaps speed it up a bit and get 2 credit cards each in the next 2 years. Your scores might take a small hit when you get this new credit but over time you will develop a bulletproof credit score. Your AAOA will be rock solid because backed by 8 credit cards, any new credit you add would be less than 1/8 of your credit age. New credit wouldn't dent your AAOA at all.

Re: How do I keep myself in the 800 club?

Anonymous — Sun, 15 Dec 2019 07:36:08 GMT

Flyingifr Listen closely. Your B/L is 47% on your mortgage. You know what that means? That means you have NOT yet got the big score boost an installment loan provides. (Probably 20-30 points.) You CANNOT lose what you have not yet earned.

You have passed the 65-70% threshold, which is small comparatively, so you would lose some points, but maybe not even enough to knock you outta the 800 club! How do you like that? If so, it would only be at TU and EX and you would not be very far under 800. A little age would put you back above 800.

Now, you asked how to stay there. Simple answer is keep utilization low and don't open any new accounts.

Now, if on the other hand, you would like to increase your scores, there's also a simple way to do that. Pay the mortgage down to < 9%. You'll see a nice boost, 20-30 points probably.

BUT therein lies the source of your fear: if you gain those points, then when you pay off the mortgage, you will lose those points (plus the ones you got at the 6x% threshold, too)!

But if you simply pay the mortgage off, you'll never see the significant gain, so you will only see a minor loss.

Now, what if you want your cake and you wanna eat it too? That's possible here. Go read the thread on the SSLT (share secured loan technique). Basically, you go take out a small installment loan with the longest possible term and then pay it down to under 9% and then milk it.

Once you do that, you can payoff the mortgage without fear, as you'll have an optimized installment loan on your CR. When the mortgage is paid off, you'll see a point gain rather than a loss because your aggregate installment utilization will go from > 9% to < 9%! How do you like that?

Now, in order to do this, you're probably gonna have to take an HP somewhere (I'd suggest EQ, if possible). (Also remember, the point loss for an installment loan is buffered/delayed by 30 days.)

I have found installment loans do not reset AoYA (at least on a clean/thick/aged scorecard), so I don't think you have to worry about that loss (even if you did lose them, those points also come back in a year):

https://ficoforums.myfico.com/t5/Understanding-FICO-Scoring/AoYA-penalty-Clean-aged-thick/td-p/5722375

So you will probably wear an HP at one CRA with its ding (which is recovered in 365 days) and you know it will also lower your AAoA slightly at all 3 CRAs, but as low as your AAoA is, you're not gonna cross more than one threshold, so loss, if any, will be minimal and quickly recovered.

Plus, as @HeavenOhio stated, this is really only affecting Version 8 (and probably 9). And, if you are reporting 0 on all revolvers, you're already wearing the "no revolving balance" penalty, as @FireMedic1 pointed out. Properly execute AZEO and you'll probably see another 10-15 points. (And you'll get points all over for that, not just Version 8.)

So you have a few options and things to consider. As @Brian stated, "Pay your bills on time, don't use your credit, and don't apply for more," and you'll be fine because, even if closing the mortgage barely knocks you outta the 800 club, as @SJ stated, with a little age you'll inch right back in there.

However as @atarvuzdar and I have stated, you can take out a small loan to get bonus points. However, there is no damage from not having an open installment loan on Version 8. It's simply that the majority of people fail to understand what the algorithm is doing.

People organically pay down their only loan, gaining points passing the 6x% threshold, gaining big points when they pass the 8.9% threshold and then when they pay it off, they lose the bonus points from both thresholds (maybe a 3rd) and they flip because they see their Version 8 score dip decent! It is then wrongly assumed that closing a loan kills you.

NO! Having an open installment loan below 9% gives you bonus points! Or (half full/half empty) conversely, not having an OPTIMIZED installment loan causes point loss. You do NOT get points just for having a loan open. It has to pass certain thresholds to award you points.

The one exception is your 1st installment loan, which gives you points for credit mix. Once earned, you don't lose them unless every loan, both open and closed, fall off your report.

@chhull00 is right, you know what to do, you've already done it!

Last, @Jaime123 makes a very compelling argument and I agree. I think having several accounts at the beginning of your credit history is great because it provides an excellent buffer against new account AAoA drops in the distant future once your profile has matured. But, to be fair, everyone doesn't agree with that approach.

There are different strategies and opinions and you must choose which path you want to follow. Some people don't like having 10-15 cards, some enjoy 20-30. Some people are happy with the minimum necessary to optimize scores, which varies by algorithm.

Personally, I think one should have at least 5, so they can optimize most metrics.

GL2U and enjoy pondering your options!

Re: How do I keep myself in the 800 club?

Trudy — Sat, 14 Dec 2019 17:25:00 GMT

PSA - Probably not what you want to hear but I also harbor the same concern of losing 800 scores but I'm often reminded "what is the purpose of a great score if you can't use it". Not saying to spend a lot or apply for something you don't want or need.

Everything stated above is sound and thickening your file should help you down the line. Achieving 800 or even the elusive 850 scores is a great accomplishment, often to someone who worked really hard to rebuild and should be kudo'd. Owning you property free and clear is a greater accomplishment in my opinion.

I'm also reminded here Fair, Good, Very Good and Excellent is just fluff language used by CMS, although encouraging. Even in the mid upper 700's your scores will likely get you the same rates and opportunities your 800 scores will provide you. Lenders don't see the Very Good or Excellent. You're either going to be approved with the applicable rates or denied based on the lender's criteria.

I'm still learning to get over it and as time goes by those reminders have started to kick in. It's okay. I'll be fine as long as I continue to apply the lessons learned here and pay my bills on time and don't incur expense I can't pay for.

Back to regularly scheduled responses to your question Good Luck!

Re: How do I keep myself in the 800 club?

Anonymous — Sat, 14 Dec 2019 20:14:16 GMT

I'd like to thank everyone for the helpful replies. I decided to try to broaden my credit card holdings a bit and apped for the Citibank Double Cash Back card. Their answer is below:

"We have received your application and further processing is required. We will contact you in approximately 7-10 days regarding our decision. If approved, be sure to visit citicards.com to register and manage your account online. Thank you for requesting a Citi® Double Cash Card.

Application ID: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX:"

In other words, "screw you".

I tried Capital One Savor - approved - $1,000 CL. Based on my prior experience, Cap1 does not have any desire to turn that into anything I can use (like to buy airline tickets, which I do twice a year). I know I burned a HP on both of these, so I figure I will just live with it and forget about trying to add a new TL. Maybe I can talk with my Credit Union about a SSL but the last time I did that they wanted $7 cash security for each $1 borrowed, which made absolutely NO sense to me, so I refused the loan.

OK, Plan B is...... ?

Re: How do I keep myself in the 800 club?

Anonymous — Sun, 15 Dec 2019 07:54:28 GMT

Flyingifr What is your AoOA? How many total accounts do you have on your credit report (both open and closed count)?

What made you choose Citibank and Capital One? If you are seeking the wisdom of the forum, why didn't you discuss it with us BEFORE you apped?

I cannot even fathom a FI asking for 7 times the loan amount for security. What FI is this? Anywhere I'm aware of requires the exact amount borrowed, if its secured. Then it's released as you pay it down. $500 loan is sufficient and it doesn't have to be secured anyway! Just has to be a loan.

Navy rocks!

Plan B? I gave you knowledge which gave you several options.

So you probably took a triple pull (one at each bureau) for Cap One. For someone scared of losing points, it's shocking you applied with the only lender famous for doing a hard inquiry at all 3 CRAs for an app. How many points did it hit you for at each bureau?

Did Citi double pull, considering your ages and low number of open revolvers? Whats the damage?

Re: How do I keep myself in the 800 club?

Anonymous — Sun, 15 Dec 2019 08:14:30 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
I'd like to thank everyone for the helpful replies. I decided to try to broaden my credit card holdings a bit and apped for the Citibank Double Cash Back card. Their answer is below:

"We have received your application and further processing is required. We will contact you in approximately 7-10 days regarding our decision. If approved, be sure to visit citicards.com to register and manage your account online. Thank you for requesting a Citi® Double Cash Card.
Application ID: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX:"

In other words, "screw you".

No it doesn't necessarily mean that. It can also mean that Citi wants to verify your identity. When that occurs Citi sends a letter to your mailing address with instructions on how to call them back for verification purposes.

Re: How do I keep myself in the 800 club?

Anonymous — Sun, 15 Dec 2019 17:00:02 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
Flyingifr What is your AoOA? How many total accounts do you have on your credit report (both open and closed count)?

15 accounts - 5 open 10 closed.

What made you choose Citibank and Capital One? If you are seeking the wisdom of the forum, why didn't you discuss it with us BEFORE you apped?

I chose the Citi card because its features seemed to be a decent fit with what I was looking for and Creditcard.com indicated I had very good chances of approval. After Citi's rsponse I apped at Cap 1 because their card looked like a decent fit with what I wanted and Credicard.com indicated I had an excellent chance of approval. I was approved - for $1000 limit, which, given my intended use of the card (travel, buying airline tickets for my twice-yearly long trips, average cost of each $8,000+) is useless.

I cannot even fathom a FI asking for 7 times the loan amount for security. What FI is this? Anywhere I'm aware of requires the exact amount borrowed, if its secured. Then it's released as you pay it down. $500 loan is sufficient and it doesn't have to be secured anyway! Just has to be a loan.

Pyramid FCU in Pima County AZ. They wanted security of not only the share account the loan proceeds would have gone into, but also my checking account and 2 CD's I had with them. Total of $7,000 securing a $1,000 loan.

Navy rocks!

Plan B? I gave you knowledge which gave you several options.

So you probably took a triple pull (one at each bureau) for Cap One. For someone scared of losing points, it's shocking you applied with the only lender famous for doing a hard inquiry at all 3 CRAs for an app. How many points did it hit you for at each bureau?

Nope - Experian only on both apps. The combined to HP's cost me 13 points and I just got thrown out of the 800 club. Exactly what I did NOT want to do. I am considering declining the Cap 1 card so that it does not affect my AAoA. I have given up on Citi. My experience with these "we will get back to you in X days" is simply polite wording for "you should have your AA letter in X days. Have a nice life."

Did Citi double pull, considering your ages and low number of open revolvers? Whats the damage?

Re: How do I keep myself in the 800 club?

jamie123 — Sun, 15 Dec 2019 17:00:38 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
@Anonymous wrote:
I'd like to thank everyone for the helpful replies. I decided to try to broaden my credit card holdings a bit and apped for the Citibank Double Cash Back card. Their answer is below:

"We have received your application and further processing is required. We will contact you in approximately 7-10 days regarding our decision. If approved, be sure to visit citicards.com to register and manage your account online. Thank you for requesting a Citi® Double Cash Card.
Application ID: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX:"

In other words, "screw you".

No it doesn't necessarily mean that. It can also mean that Citi wants to verify your identity. When that occurs Citi sends a letter to your mailing address with instructions on how to call them back for verification purposes.

Exactly. You should try calling them and ask if they need more information. That's probably all they want, verification of your information. If your scores are what you say they are, you should qualify for any card that you want to get.

And I agree with the other poster, Cap1 was a poor choice.

Re: How do I keep myself in the 800 club?

randomguy1 — Sun, 15 Dec 2019 17:49:09 GMT

Creditcard.com's suggestions are marketing and have very wide guidelines of what they think your chances are. They do not take your whole profile into account and do not compare them to each creditor's guidelines. They make money from your clicks/applications so take their approval ratings with a grain of salt.

Do you have your EQ/TU frozen or locked?

Re: How do I keep myself in the 800 club?

Anonymous — Sun, 15 Dec 2019 18:41:57 GMT

@randomguy1 wrote:
Creditcard.com's suggestions are marketing and have very wide guidelines of what they think your chances are. They do not take your whole profile into account and do not compare them to each creditor's guidelines. They make money from your clicks/applications so take their approval ratings with a grain of salt.

Do you have your EQ/TU frozen or locked?

I have no CRAs locked (yet).

Re: How do I keep myself in the 800 club?

Anonymous — Sun, 15 Dec 2019 22:15:29 GMT

Join the Graden Club aswell! and Grow those crops brother!

Re: How do I keep myself in the 800 club?

Anonymous — Mon, 16 Dec 2019 08:06:38 GMT

@Flyingifr What is your AoOA?? Age of Oldest Account on CR?

OK, you have a thick profile, that's good. If not for that, those inquiries would have cost you a whole lot more! Believe that!

Yeah, Creditcard.com and all those sites get paid to entice you to apply. That could care less if you are approved; they got paid, at your expense. Thank goodness you didn't go to them for any other advice.

Speaking of advice, you are not going to find a better collection of knowledge on issues impacting credit score, ect..., than you will here. I promise you.

Citi may still approve you, don't give up hope yet. Call them; its possibly verification, as already stated. If not, let us know the reasons, and you should try to recon, what's the worst they could say? No? Again? You have nothing to lose trying. Keep in mind, usually recon needs to happen within 30 days of app'ing.

Sounds like you need to recon that Capital One account. It's too late. Once you app and they approve you, there is no reversing it. You can call and close the account, but it is still gonna hit your CR and affect AAoA for 10 years (unless something funny /strange happens).

So, you may as well try to recon for a higher SL and if they refuse, keep it and SD it for now. That's another thing I dislike about Cap One is how they usually bucket customers they give low limits to like that. They usually are stingy and rarely will you see the card get decent CLIs or make it to high CLs. But frequently the 2nd card they give will be much better, but meanwhile the first one is a waste IMHO, unless it is being used to re-build.

Having so few cards, that could have played a part. IDK, but you may as well keep it for now, because and it ups your number of accounts, reducing your AZEO ratio. So, at least you can realize some benefit outta it.

Pyramid is full of something. Go elsewhere. It doesn't even have to be secured, just make sure that it is an FI that pushes out your payments, not one who reduces the term. Again read the thread on SSLs.

You are actually VERY lucky. I've rarely heard of Cap One failing to do a hard inquiry at ALL 3 CRAs. I don't know how you skated by on that, TBH. Maybe because you were 800's?

You still have a lot to consider. Everything I told you still applies. You're just 13 points lower on EX and you've lessened your chances with many lenders who pull EX and who are inquiry sensitive.

For instance, you could've probably scored a Duck's with 5% back on gas and sporting goods, but with 2 HPs, they probably would deny you, where had you app'ed to them first, you may have been approved and then free to app elsewhere.

The order of apps is critical, as inquiry-sensitive lenders see previous HPs and for people with few accounts, it's even more important, because they don't know whether or not you were approved. But your scores are still great and should still get you the best rates, and you still have plenty of options!

Hindsight is 20/20, but next time, if you will ask, we will be happy to point you towards cards and lenders who fit your profile AND who are likely to approve your profile and give you opinion on the best order to app.....which we are still trying to nail down your profile...AoOA please?