topic Re: Oldest card turning 2! 🎉 in Understanding FICO® Scoring

Oldest card turning 2! 🎉

JNA1 — Sun, 02 Feb 2020 16:48:21 GMT

My Summit cards turns 2 next month and TU HP to acquire it falls off as well. Will/should this be a positive bump? I wasn’t sure if aging to 2 would be a milestone or not. As I understand it, the 2 yr HP shouldn’t make much of different because FICO does not count them on you score after 12 month? Is this correct?

Re: Oldest card turning 2! 🎉

Nomad3 — Sun, 02 Feb 2020 18:36:36 GMT

Congrats on turning 2!

Nice little run of 7 cards in 2 years? You've got some good limits there considering age

Re: Oldest card turning 2! 🎉

thornback — Sun, 02 Feb 2020 18:56:46 GMT

@JNA1 wrote:
My Summit cards turns 2 next month and TU HP to acquire it falls off as well. Will/should this be a positive bump? I wasn’t sure if aging to 2 would be a milestone or not. As I understand it, the 2 yr HP shouldn’t make much of different because FICO does not count them on you score after 12 month? Is this correct?

Your inquiry dropping off at its 2 year mark, unfortunately, will not bring any points back as any points for that inquiry would have already been given when it hit its 1 year mark.

As for your oldest reaching 2 years... hard to say because - from what we know of FICO - AoOA is not a scoring factor, it is a scorecard assignment segmenter. If an increase in AoOA places you on a different scorecard your score may change due to a shift in weighting of the factors used in scoring and the assigned min/max scores associated with the scorecard -- and a score change due to scorecard reassignment could go either way, increase or decrease, depending on how those weighed factors measure up.

It would be really great if you could report back once the account ticks over 2 years and let us know what, if anything, changed. Also pay attention to the negative reason codes provided before and after for your scores -- see if they change or re-order themselves. The more data you can provide, the better.

Re: Oldest card turning 2! 🎉

Remedios — Sun, 02 Feb 2020 18:55:03 GMT

Based on personal experience on my profile, nothing happens when cards reache 2 years.

The big gain is when youngest reaches a year.

All your points for HP if any were lost would have been regained at 1 year.

Re: Oldest card turning 2! 🎉

Anonymous — Sun, 02 Feb 2020 20:08:27 GMT

@JNA1 wrote:
As I understand it, the 2 yr HP shouldn’t make much of different because FICO does not count them on you score after 12 month? Is this correct?

Correct. You may see 1 or 2 points on VS3 scores, but those aren't important.

You've done really, really well in 2 years!

When I reached 2 years Age of Oldest Account (AoOA), I lost 19 to 22 points on the EX 2 scores (2, Bankcard 2, Auto 2). That's from switching scorecards on those specific models.

I'd love see what happens with your profile at 2 years AoOA.

Re: Oldest card turning 2! 🎉

Anonymous — Mon, 30 Nov 2020 22:43:43 GMT

@JNA1Yeah, you experienced scorecard reassignment at 2 year AoOA on Version 2 from a "young" scorecard to a "mature" scorecard.

Edited

Re: Oldest card turning 2! 🎉

JNA1 — Mon, 03 Feb 2020 00:30:50 GMT

@Nomad3 wrote:
Congrats on turning 2!

Nice little run of 7 cards in 2 years? You've got some good limits there considering age

@Cassiecard
Correct. You may see 1 or 2 points on VS3 scores, but those aren't important. You've done really, really well in 2 years! When I reached 2 years Age of Oldest Account (AoOA), I lost 19 to 22 points on the EX 2 scores (2, Bankcard 2, Auto 2). That's from switching scorecards on those specific models. I'd love see what happens with your profile at 2 years AoOA.

Thanks! The biggest thing helping me is that I have a 17 yr 8 mo mortgage on my file, and a couple of car loans (one closed PIF, and one open, 2yrs 7 mos old) with perfect payment history. I subscribed to the Dave Ramsey "Credit cards are da debbil!" philosophy for decades, and I was terrified of credit cards. We bought everything we needed with cash and I only had those credit lines for over 20 years. When I bought my truck in 2017, I signed up for Credit Karma and actually checked my credit for the first time. I realized my score, though solid, was suffering for not having a good mix of accounts and revolving credit. I read up on it and applied for the Summit card because I was building an engine for my GTO and was going to be spending a good chunk of change anyway, so I bought my parts with it and paid it off. I waited 9 months after I got the Summit card, and I got the Discover card and learned about cashback and the rest was history. I waited another 11 months and I went on a little spree at the end of last year and got the BCP, BBVA, PPMC and the PNC card to optimize cashback rewards. The BB&T card was actually a mistake - I read a post that said if you went the application process with BB&T it would display the SL before you had to submit the application, but that was mistaken. I'm gardening now in preparation to try to acquire a few more cards to round out my lineup. I have no interest in getting a bunch of cards just because I can - my goal is to get cards that I will actually use to optimize rewards and to build good relationships with a few big CUs. I financed my latest auto loan through a CU and I really like dealing them instead of banks. I will share data points when I get them, but the true affect may be muddied by the fact that the PNC and BB&T cards will turn 3 months old next month also. My profile handled the 5 card spree pretty well I think, only dropping 13 points, but my AAoA dropped down to 4 yr 1 mo old.

Re: Oldest card turning 2! 🎉

jamie123 — Mon, 03 Feb 2020 01:43:42 GMT

Yeah, no matter what Ramsey says, credit cards are the foundation of rock solid high credit scores that will stay with you for life.

I don't think that FICO cares so much once an account ages past 2 years but I think it matters to some lenders. That's why Chase has the 5/24 rule. Chase won't approve your app if you've opened 5 accounts or more in the past 24 months. I think that lenders put a lot of focus on what people have been doing for the previous 2 years.

Re: Oldest card turning 2! 🎉

Revelate — Tue, 04 Feb 2020 13:48:13 GMT

@jamie123 wrote:
Yeah, no matter what Ramsey says, credit cards are the foundation of rock solid high credit scores that will stay with you for life.

I don't think that FICO cares so much once an account ages past 2 years but I think it matters to some lenders. That's why Chase has the 5/24 rule. Chase won't approve your app if you've opened 5 accounts or more in the past 24 months. I think that lenders put a lot of focus on what people have been doing for the previous 2 years.

To be clear 5/24 was to stop churning aka SUB abuse and not for any other underwriting reason.

That said I do agree that lenders in general put a lot more emphasis on recent data and the newer algorithms reflect that change in thinking, but I don't know that there's anything intrinsic to 24 months other than it's a conveniently round number (base 12 lol!) so one that would definitely be checked for data trends presumably.

Re: Oldest card turning 2! 🎉

Anonymous — Tue, 04 Feb 2020 15:24:56 GMT

From what I’ve read (tho I cannot recall where), the fico algorithms are designed to predict the risk of default in the next 24 months as well.

Re: Oldest card turning 2! 🎉

Remedios — Tue, 04 Feb 2020 15:51:31 GMT

I dont think most lenders give a rat's bum about the numerical representation
They are after your CR, and your CR undergoes transformation and interpretation according to internal algorithm, hence denials with 850 and approvals at 625.

Sure, Chase could have elected to look at one year, but like Rev said, it's about SUB chasing, and two years give a bit better picture.
As far as future predictive value, I'd have more faith in it if I didnt hang around here.
Probably why more and more lenders are relaying on internal algorithms, looking at raw numbers, taking into account various tricks to mask obvious problems etc
Any scoring system that can be so easily manipulated is inherently unreliable.

Re: Oldest card turning 2! 🎉

Anonymous — Tue, 04 Feb 2020 16:00:35 GMT

Remmy makes some good points, although I feel they do consider the fico scores too or they wouldn’t pay for them.

But I believe she is spot on as to the purpose of the internal algorithms as a fail-safe, due to ability to manipulate ficos; plus the more data, the better the decision in terms of risk-assessment from the lender’s perspective.

Re: Oldest card turning 2! 🎉

Revelate — Tue, 04 Feb 2020 21:23:19 GMT

@Remedios wrote:
I dont think most lenders give a rat's bum about the numerical representation
They are after your CR, and your CR undergoes transformation and interpretation according to internal algorithm, hence denials with 850 and approvals at 625.

Sure, Chase could have elected to look at one year, but like Rev said, it's about SUB chasing, and two years give a bit better picture.
As far as future predictive value, I'd have more faith in it if I didnt hang around here.
Probably why more and more lenders are relaying on internal algorithms, looking at raw numbers, taking into account various tricks to mask obvious problems etc
Any scoring system that can be so easily manipulated is inherently unreliable.

Broadly speaking the algorithms have value if they aren't known, which is true for the vast majority of Americans.

The problem is with this very small population we have a pretty good idea in broad strokes how things work and how to manipulate the resultant score... hence FICO Strategists to use a prettier label than FICO Manipulators though I'm sure lenders consider us the second.

Nothing of any importance is underwritten just a FICO score, as Birdman suggests there's a lot more data that can be gained on an individual that isn't on a credit report and income has to be considered these days though I've never had to submit POI except for a mortgage it's not inconceivable that my pay history is on some online database I'm not aware of outside what Chase can easily work backwards to exactly what I'm making each year given my entire financial life runs through there for all direct deposit since 2011 or so.

End of the day when it counts, prepare to submit a whole slew of documentation. I'm actually kind of curious with this mortgage process (which I'm running through Chase, I don't have time to rate shop and with my relationship discounts to both rate and closing costs they have to be competitive even with a small conventional mortgage) when Chase has every single account I'm claiming for assets between checking for pay history verification, brokerage and the larger of the two retirement asset accounts I hold with them though really I didn't even need to claim the retirement one I just sort of wondered what they were going to do with it. Have the opportunity to experiment with a lender even on something as well characterized as a mortgage, why not?

Re: Oldest card turning 2! 🎉

Remedios — Tue, 04 Feb 2020 21:45:19 GMT

I've been Chase's 'ish for a really long time.
At least 10 years, and another 7 with WaMu prior to that. Put a checkmark on couple of mortgages, one or two car loans, other stuff...All the money goes there first, then it gets distributed from there.
Chase is the one I worry the least about.
It's not because I feel all safe and cuddly but because if they have any doubts on my ability to repay, not just them but everyone else, I might as well go debit card. Cash, even!

I'm also not advocating for not manipulating the scoring system. It's actually the opposite.
It's not like they asked for public input when they were creating it 😐

All I'm saying is, whatever FI provides in terms of scoring algorithm is hybridized with whatever lender is looking for. So, at some point, our ability to manipulate got lessened by quite a bit.
My scores are fine, so is income, my debt is nonexistent and yet I probably couldn't get one of those grocery key chains with most of them because new accounts 😐
That's why you save Amex for last 😂

Re: Oldest card turning 2! 🎉

Revelate — Tue, 04 Feb 2020 22:25:56 GMT

@Remedios wrote:
I've been Chase's 'ish for a really long time.
At least 10 years, and another 7 with WaMu prior to that. Put a checkmark on couple of mortgages, one or two car loans, other stuff...All the money goes there first, then it gets distributed from there.
Chase is the one I worry the least about.
It's not because I feel all safe and cuddly but because if they have any doubts on my ability to repay, not just them but everyone else, I might as well go debit card. Cash, even!

I'm also not advocating for not manipulating the scoring system. It's actually the opposite.
It's not like they asked for public input when they were creating it 😐

All I'm saying is, whatever FI provides in terms of scoring algorithm is hybridized with whatever lender is looking for. So, at some point, our ability to manipulate got lessened by quite a bit.
My scores are fine, so is income, my debt is nonexistent and yet I probably couldn't get one of those grocery key chains with most of them because new accounts 😐
That's why you save Amex for last 😂

Heh.

Well FICO 10T all that FICO strategy basically becomes irrelevant or should be at least: the use of payment information is going to be a game changer though I agree with your other post on a different thread which we've both made that not every lender reports payment information and others like Citi now apparently won't report $0 it just skips that reporting cycle. I don't know that it breaks where we're apparently headed but it does does create more inconsistency in credit reports.

Then again as I told the Chase LO if my mid-score doesn't come back 763 give me a week and repull and it will be 773 =/. The fact I know things to that level of detail has to be worrisome to lenders and as such I suspect FICO 10T will be far more used than FICO 10, I almost don't know why they didn't use that as their default for FICO 10 even but FICO is as FICO does.

Unlike others that you allude to this forum, I've only paid interest once on any credit card, might be a second one now as I really should be pooling cash for a downpayment and Chase already got a 2K payment on the one non-trivial balance I have outstanding and a little interest in the, well, interest, of keeping a fixed file for the mortgage process is probably worth it anyway and I freely admit that one was just a mistake as I could've waited another month and change to submit the property tax payment anyway.

As is already had nearly 1K withheld for Calfornia taxes in January from the steady job and that's with all the damned holidays I don't get paid for. I swear in a smarter tax state this is going to become a non-issue =/. 45 minutes ago I got spam emailed from all the random credit services that a new inquiry got lodged by Chase Home Lending, it's go time.

Re: Oldest card turning 2! 🎉

Anonymous — Tue, 04 Feb 2020 22:39:32 GMT

Whoa what do you mean citi won’t report a zero balance anymore? When did this start? So it’s impossible to zero out a citi account?

Re: Oldest card turning 2! 🎉

Revelate — Tue, 04 Feb 2020 22:55:12 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
Whoa what do you mean citi won’t report a zero balance anymore? When did this start? So it’s impossible to zero out a citi account?

No what I mean is they no longer update the bureaus if you have a $0 balance and if it doesn't change month to month. This is basically what Synchrony has done for a decade but they kept screwing up and not updating the bureau after you paid it off... that was ultimately why I kicked them to the curb and flatly refuse to deal with them.

I haven't logged into my Citi account recently to see when I last generated a statement but Experian hasn't gotten an update from them in a while:

Re: Oldest card turning 2! 🎉

Anonymous — Tue, 04 Feb 2020 23:58:52 GMT

Gotcha.

Re: Oldest card turning 2! 🎉

Anonymous — Wed, 05 Feb 2020 01:42:48 GMT

@Revelate wrote:
@Anonymous wrote:
Whoa what do you mean citi won’t report a zero balance anymore? When did this start? So it’s impossible to zero out a citi account?
No what I mean is they no longer update the bureaus if you have a $0 balance and if it doesn't change month to month. This is basically what Synchrony has done for a decade but they kept screwing up and not updating the bureau after you paid it off... that was ultimately why I kicked them to the curb and flatly refuse to deal with them.

I haven't logged into my Citi account recently to see when I last generated a statement but Experian hasn't gotten an update from them in a while:

Wow, thanks for posting that. I had no idea that could happen with my Citi Visa card.

Re: Oldest card turning 2! 🎉

Revelate — Wed, 05 Feb 2020 02:10:12 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
@Revelate wrote:
@Anonymous wrote:
Whoa what do you mean citi won’t report a zero balance anymore? When did this start? So it’s impossible to zero out a citi account?
No what I mean is they no longer update the bureaus if you have a $0 balance and if it doesn't change month to month. This is basically what Synchrony has done for a decade but they kept screwing up and not updating the bureau after you paid it off... that was ultimately why I kicked them to the curb and flatly refuse to deal with them.

I haven't logged into my Citi account recently to see when I last generated a statement but Experian hasn't gotten an update from them in a while:

Wow, thanks for posting that. I had no idea that could happen with my Citi Visa card.

Doesn't impact FICO score at all TBH and I only just now noticed it for the simple expedient that the Citi card was top of the Experian default sort for some reason

I don't have the ability to play it now but after I get sorted mortgage and moved I'll run a charge through it, generate a statement, and it should populate everything before that if it holds true to other lenders, but since ND counts the same as OK it doesn't matter score wise.

Actually for you if you want to do what I consider to be a Godlike test Cassie: since you're still with limited revolvers and have excellent data, if you can get the Citi card to not report for six months and then try your balance tests again for numbers of revolvers and/or aggregate utilization we might be able to nail down (finally) if a card gets excluded if not updated on a report within 6 months. No harm no foul if you don't want to but you have the near ideal setup whereas for me one card lost is basically a non-issue.