topic Re: EQ FICO 9 Down. EQ FICO 8 Up. in Understanding FICO® Scoring

EQ FICO 9 Down. EQ FICO 8 Up.

SouthJamaica — Sat, 04 Jul 2020 16:22:53 GMT

Just saw my July 3rd EQ FICO 9 on NFCU site and saw that score had dropped 17 points from a month ago, which is odd because EQ FICO 8 is up about that many points. Contributing to the oddity is that both revolving utilization and installment utilization have improved over the month, and there have been no inquiries or new accounts, or anything else which would normally cause a FICO score to go down.

Spitballing: Does anyone out there have a breakdown of the FICO 9 scorecards? Is it possible that there are 2 thick clean FICO 9 scorecards which are distinguished by utilization levels? I doubt it, but I'm struggling to come up with a rational explanation.

Holy cow. I guess that is the answer. Apparently FICO 9 added a scorecard for folks with high utilization, which I was on until this month. So that my improvement in utilization caused a scorecard change:

"With the addition of a scorecard for consumers with a high
amount of revolving debt, FICO® Score 9 can do an even better job in predicting bankruptcy as well as
other forms of delinquency"

Link to PDF:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjryO3p_7PqAhV2j3IEHWlODQgQFjAAegQIGBAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.transunion.com%2Fresources%2Ftransunion%2Fdoc%2Fproducts%2Fresources%2Fproduct-fico-9-risk-scores-as.pdf&usg=AOvVaw3vY9B7LAkO2et5lMpvCddE

Re: EQ FICO 9 Down. EQ FICO 8 Up.

Revelate — Sat, 04 Jul 2020 16:47:59 GMT

Yeah, prior to FICO 9 to my knowledge utilization was an intra-scorecard modifier, not a segmentation metric.

It does make sense, any idea what your specific revolving debt balances were at the time of the pulls and individual / aggregate utilization levels as well? I don't get much access to my FICO 9 scores but they're pretty much in line with FICO 8 as a general rule other than TU where I believe it's non-trivially higher though I only get that once a year and I rather doubt I fall into the high utilization scorecard(s).

Re: EQ FICO 9 Down. EQ FICO 8 Up.

805orbust — Sat, 04 Jul 2020 21:03:57 GMT

Your theory of a high utilization scorecard MUST be true. 2 years ago when I had low util, my FICO9 always trailed my FICO8 scores by 40 points in May of this year, I had 80% utilization (100k limits) due to a relocation, business expenses, and dopamine-inducing quarantine purchases made from my living room, deck, and bed.

Decided to buy a car on May 15th because why not, and my FICO9 was now 50 points higher than FICO8. So I went with Penfed. Now this month with balances back down, boom... flips right back. Although a bit closer now. Boggles the mind dude.

Re: EQ FICO 9 Down. EQ FICO 8 Up.

Anonymous — Sun, 05 Jul 2020 00:01:47 GMT

Yup they added a scorecard for high utilization in version 9, yes they did.

Re: EQ FICO 9 Down. EQ FICO 8 Up.

SouthJamaica — Sun, 05 Jul 2020 01:13:59 GMT

@Revelate wrote:
Yeah, prior to FICO 9 to my knowledge utilization was an intra-scorecard modifier, not a segmentation metric.

It does make sense, any idea what your specific revolving debt balances were at the time of the pulls and individual / aggregate utilization levels as well? I don't get much access to my FICO 9 scores but they're pretty much in line with FICO 8 as a general rule other than TU where I believe it's non-trivially higher though I only get that once a year and I rather doubt I fall into the high utilization scorecard(s).

It looks like the trigger was moving from around 21% aggregate revolving utilization to around 19%..... so I guess that gives us a pretty good idea as to where the line of demarcation lies

The move came primarily from moving one account down from 82% to 26%; so if it's based on individual utilization, that would no doubt be the culprit.

Re: EQ FICO 9 Down. EQ FICO 8 Up.

Anonymous — Sun, 05 Jul 2020 02:00:50 GMT

I believe you just began our knowledge base SJ. It appears it can be possible from individual utilization.

Re: EQ FICO 9 Down. EQ FICO 8 Up.

SouthJamaica — Sun, 05 Jul 2020 02:10:15 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
I believe you just began our knowledge base SJ. It appears it can be possible from individual utilization.

I agree because 20% aggregate seems too ordinary.

Re: EQ FICO 9 Down. EQ FICO 8 Up.

Anonymous — Sun, 05 Jul 2020 02:20:33 GMT

Good chance it could be 49 or 69.

Re: EQ FICO 9 Down. EQ FICO 8 Up.

lhcole77 — Sun, 05 Jul 2020 02:37:58 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
Good chance it could be 49 or 69.

Are you thinking aggregate or individual?

Re: EQ FICO 9 Down. EQ FICO 8 Up.

Anonymous — Sun, 05 Jul 2020 04:11:39 GMT

Individual, But it may require others above 29.

Re: EQ FICO 9 Down. EQ FICO 8 Up.

SouthJamaica — Sun, 05 Jul 2020 11:03:25 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
Individual, But it may require others above 29.

In my case I'm pretty sure it was just 1 account.

Re: EQ FICO 9 Down. EQ FICO 8 Up.

lhcole77 — Sun, 05 Jul 2020 16:01:23 GMT

@SouthJamaica wrote:
@Anonymous wrote:
Individual, But it may require others above 29.
In my case I'm pretty sure it was just 1 account.

Interesting. I have an card that is reporting > 68.9% due to BT offer. It'll be below that by August. I'll keep an eye on my FICO 9 scores to see if that has effect.

Re: EQ FICO 9 Down. EQ FICO 8 Up.

Anonymous — Sun, 05 Jul 2020 16:48:23 GMT

Very interesting SJ! I assumed wrongly obviously that you at least had one more above 29%!

Wow so one card could trigger it that’s very interesting.

@Ihcole77 thank you I will look forward to your data points.

Re: EQ FICO 9 Down. EQ FICO 8 Up.

SouthJamaica — Mon, 06 Jul 2020 00:19:50 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
Very interesting SJ! I assumed wrongly obviously that you at least had one more above 29%!

Wow so one card could trigger it that’s very interesting.

Yes last month I just had that one whopper. Getting rid of it predictably lifted all 3 of my FICO 8's respectably.

What surprised me was FICO 9's move in the opposite direction.

I guess we now have to be constantly comparing FICO 9 and FICO 8 on utilization issues, to see where that scorecard cliff is located. But doing that is not meaningfully possible for me, because I don't get daily updates on FICO 9. I can only have a once a month peek into its mysteries.

Perhaps I will never be able to know the answer, other than to say that FICO 9 has a mysterious new scorecard which divides clean-thick-old scorecards into (a) those who have too much revolving utilization and (b) those who don't, and that because of that, reducing one's revolving utilization can actually cause a decrease in one's FICO 9 score.

I guess I'll have to follow @Revelate's mantra -- look to the negative reason codes for possible clues. So what I can say is that in the June 6th report, when I had the monster balance reporting, FICO 9 had this to say, on all 3 bureaus:

You've made heavy use of your available revolving credit.
The amount owed on your revolving and/or open-ended accounts is too high.

When I pull my 3-bureau report, which will be within the next week or two, I'll revisit this thread with an update as to what , if anything, changed in my FICO 9 negative reason codes.

Re: EQ FICO 9 Down. EQ FICO 8 Up.

Anonymous — Mon, 06 Jul 2020 02:04:18 GMT

Wow, that's super interesting SJ and a great observation. I bet its at 49 or 69, but who knows? But I agree with you and look forward to your update!

Thinking.....So that would make thin/thick and age irrelevant then? Wonder if its only for clean profiles or dirty as well? Very interesting, you've got me intrigued.

Re: EQ FICO 9 Down. EQ FICO 8 Up.

SouthJamaica — Mon, 06 Jul 2020 03:20:48 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
Wow, that's super interesting SJ and a great observation. I bet its at 49 or 69, but who knows? But I agree with you and look forward to your update!

Thinking.....So that would make thin/thick and age irrelevant then? Wonder if its only for clean profiles or dirty as well? Very interesting, you've got me intrigued.

According to that link from TransUnion, it's only a single added scorecard for high utilization. So, since I'm in the clean-thick-old category, I would assume that's the only place it resides. I seriously doubt they would throw out all the other segmentation criteria.

Re: EQ FICO 9 Down. EQ FICO 8 Up.

Anonymous — Mon, 06 Jul 2020 03:39:56 GMT

I think its supposed to be a totally separate scorecard, but I could be wrong. It could be similar to a industry score where they do an overlay.

Have you gotten either or both of those codes before at lower utilization?

Re: EQ FICO 9 Down. EQ FICO 8 Up.

Anonymous — Mon, 06 Jul 2020 03:40:59 GMT

I know it was supposed to be focused on people that maintained high utilization.

Re: EQ FICO 9 Down. EQ FICO 8 Up.

Anonymous — Mon, 06 Jul 2020 03:51:34 GMT

https://ficoforums.myfico.com/t5/Understanding-FICO-Scoring/Differences-in-Fico-9-compared-to-Fico-8/td-p/5256499

Re: EQ FICO 9 Down. EQ FICO 8 Up.

Thomas_Thumb — Tue, 07 Jul 2020 02:38:25 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
I think its supposed to be a totally separate scorecard, but I could be wrong. It could be similar to a industry score where they do an overlay.

Have you gotten either or both of those codes before at lower utilization?

Fico 9 has a 13th scorecard for segmentation. This is not an overlay which both Fico 8 and Fico 9 use for industry options. Actually older Fico models also have industry overlays. Best I can tell based on published literature is the Fico 9 13th scorecard only applies to clean scorecards. write-ups suggest any clean profile could be assigned to #13 according to the dictates of utilization. Derogatory scorecards don't put much focus on utilization. I believe the segmentation is something like the below - note the Fico 9 high utilization scorecard under "clean scorecards"