topic Re: Equifax mortgage score 67-70 points lower in Understanding FICO® Scoring

Equifax mortgage score 67-70 points lower

SouthJamaica — Tue, 08 Dec 2020 02:51:03 GMT

I just noticed that my Equifax mortgage score is 67 points lower than TU 4 and 70 points lower than EX 2.

Wondering if anyone has a clue as to what peculiarities there are in Equifax 5 that would create such a large margin.

The only serious difference that I could detect in the data is that, due to Equifax having prematurely dropped 4 of my accounts, among them my second oldest, my AAoA on EQ is 4 yrs 1 month while it's 4 yrs 7 months on the others.

Re: Equifax mortgage score 67-70 points lower

Anonymous — Tue, 08 Dec 2020 04:50:46 GMT

How many total accounts do you have on your CR per bureau? While I doubt it would matter that much, it sounds like EQ may be 4 less than the other 2? Are any of the dropped accounts mortgages and if not, how about installment loans of any type?

Re: Equifax mortgage score 67-70 points lower

Thomas_Thumb — Tue, 08 Dec 2020 06:33:38 GMT

@SouthJamaica wrote:
I just noticed that my Equifax mortgage score is 67 points lower than TU 4 and 70 points lower than EX 2.

Wondering if anyone has a clue as to what peculiarities there are in Equifax 5 that would create such a large margin.

The only serious difference that I could detect in the data is that, due to Equifax having prematurely dropped 4 of my accounts, among them my second oldest, my AAoA on EQ is 4 yrs 1 month while it's 4 yrs 7 months on the others.

Equifax Fico 04 (score 5) is peculiar regarding its heightened sensitivity toward # of cards and accounts overall reporting balances. Much moreso than TU or EX based on posts from multiple members including BBS and CGID. Yes, I am certain QTY of accounts reporting is a scoring attribute different from %.

Has your EQ score dropped relative to TU and EX or have the other two scores risen to result in this large offset - or has the offset been there all along?

Side note 1: I don't believe all CRAs look at AAoA and AoOA of open loans as a metric. If EQ does and TU/EX do not, then the closure of your oldest installment loan might be a factor in the score difference.

Side note 2: It has been written that ratio of revolvers to installment loans is a metric. A "preferred" ratio of 2:1 or 3:1 (open revolvers to open loans) has been mentioned. This attribute may carry different weight depending on the CRA (as we know the base algorithms were customized per CRA request) particularly on older models. The closure of those loans likely took your ratio well above the 3:1 ratio. If EQ puts more weight on that than the other CRAs, that could contribute to the large score difference among your "mortgage" scores.

Side note 2: EQ Fico 8 and EQ Fico 9 are more accommodating toward a large number of accounts with balances relative to EQ Fico 04. In fact, the newer models penalize for having too few open accounts (such as no open installment loan or no open revolvers). Revelate has reported on numerous occassions that when Fico 8 was rolled out Fico members with just installment loans (no open revolvers) reported a substantial score drop on their then new Fico 8 score.

Side note 3: # of open accounts with a balance is a known scoring attribute. Fewer is better as long as one open revolver and ideally one installment loan report a balance. So, payoff/closure of 4 of your 6 loans is a positive by itself.

I can personally vouch for Classic EQ score 5 and its industry enhanced counterparts being hyper sensitive to # of cards with balances. That likely accounts for a portion, but not all, of the low EQ "mortgage" score.

Below is some of my data for comparison. See the low EQ Fico score 5 values relative to TU score 4 and EX score 3/EX score 2 in October. [Classic 54 - 56 points, BCE 69 - 77 points]. All CRAs list the same open accounts and same balances.

Note how the scores came closer together on 11/30 with fewer cards reporting balances.

Description	11/30/2020	11/5/2020	10/13/2020
Open Mortgages	0	1	1
Ag UT $ (Exclude AU)	$13,395	$11,005	$2,951
Ag UT % (Exclude AU)	16%	13%	3%
High card $ (no AU)	$9,664	$9,664	$1,829
High card UT % (no AU)	54%	54%	15%
AU card UT $	$1,034	$2,658	$908
AU card UT %	3%	8%	3%
AG UT $ (inc AU)	$14,429	$13,663	$3,859
AG UT % (inc AU)	11	11%	3%
INQ by CRA	0,0,0	0,0,0	0,0,0
Accts with bal (no AU)	4,4,4	6,6,6	6,6,6
EQ Fico 8	814	843	850
TU Fico 8	811	835	850
EX Fico 8	820	846	850
EQ Fico 04 (score 5)	768	749	764
TU Fico 04 (score 4)	795	806	818
EX Fico 04 (score 3)	771	791	819
EX Fico 98 (score 2)	787	787	820
EQ BCE Fico 04 (score 5)	763	743	776
TU BCE Fico 04 (score 4)	807	817	853
EX BCE Fico 98 (score 2)	792	792	845

Re: Equifax mortgage score 67-70 points lower

Anonymous — Tue, 08 Dec 2020 13:58:09 GMT

TT, I may have missed something but I don't believe SJ posted above that he paid off/closed 4 loans. He simply stated that 4 accounts fell off his report, so I'm thinking they were already closed and I don't believe account type was disclosed yet. Maybe from another thread you know something I don't, though.

Re: Equifax mortgage score 67-70 points lower

SouthJamaica — Tue, 08 Dec 2020 15:21:55 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
How many total accounts do you have on your CR per bureau? While I doubt it would matter that much, it sounds like EQ may be 4 less than the other 2? Are any of the dropped accounts mortgages and if not, how about installment loans of any type?

Yes EQ has roughly 4 more total open and closed accounts.

The accounts EQ dropped from the report were all revolvers. Each had been closed a year or less when it was dropped. Sadly, one of them was my 2nd oldest account.

Re: Equifax mortgage score 67-70 points lower

SouthJamaica — Tue, 08 Dec 2020 15:17:20 GMT

@Thomas_Thumb wrote:
@SouthJamaica wrote:
I just noticed that my Equifax mortgage score is 67 points lower than TU 4 and 70 points lower than EX 2.

Wondering if anyone has a clue as to what peculiarities there are in Equifax 5 that would create such a large margin.

The only serious difference that I could detect in the data is that, due to Equifax having prematurely dropped 4 of my accounts, among them my second oldest, my AAoA on EQ is 4 yrs 1 month while it's 4 yrs 7 months on the others.
Equifax Fico 04 (score 5) is peculiar regarding its heightened sensitivity toward # of cards and accounts overall reporting balances. Much moreso than TU or EX based on posts from multiple members including BBS and CGID. Yes, I am certain QTY of accounts reporting is a scoring attribute different from %.

Has your EQ score dropped relative to TU and EX or have the other two scores risen to result in this large offset - or has the offset been there all along?

Side note 1: I don't believe all CRAs look at AAoA and AoOA of open loans as a metric. If EQ does and TU/EX do not, then the closure of your oldest installment loan might be a factor in the score difference.

Side note 2: It has been written that ratio of revolvers to installment loans is a metric. A "preferred" ratio of 2:1 or 3:1 (open revolvers to open loans) has been mentioned. This attribute may carry different weight depending on the CRA (as we know the base algorithms were customized per CRA request) particularly on older models. The closure of those loans likely took your ratio well above the 3:1 ratio. If EQ puts more weight on that than the other CRAs, that could contribute to the large score difference among your "mortgage" scores.

Side note 2: EQ Fico 8 and EQ Fico 9 are more accommodating toward a large number of accounts with balances relative to EQ Fico 04. In fact, the newer models penalize for having too few open accounts (such as no open installment loan or no open revolvers). Revelate has reported on numerous occassions that when Fico 8 was rolled out Fico members with just installment loans (no open revolvers) reported a substantial score drop on their then new Fico 8 score.

Side note 3: # of open accounts with a balance is a known scoring attribute. Fewer is better as long as one open revolver and ideally one installment loan report a balance. So, payoff/closure of 4 of your 6 loans is a positive by itself.

I can personally vouch for Classic EQ score 5 and its industry enhanced counterparts being hyper sensitive to # of cards with balances. That likely accounts for a portion, but not all, of the low EQ "mortgage" score.

Below is some of my data for comparison. See the low EQ Fico score 5 values relative to TU score 4 and EX score 3/EX score 2 in October. [Classic 54 - 56 points, BCE 69 - 77 points]. All CRAs list the same open accounts and same balances.
Note how the scores came closer together on 11/30 with fewer cards reporting balances.
Description 11/30/2020 11/5/2020 10/13/2020
Open Mortgages 0 1 1
Ag UT $ (Exclude AU) $13,395 $11,005 $2,951
Ag UT % (Exclude AU) 16% 13% 3%
High card $ (no AU) $9,664 $9,664 $1,829
High card UT % (no AU) 54% 54% 15%
AU card UT $ $1,034 $2,658 $908
AU card UT % 3% 8% 3%
AG UT $ (inc AU) $14,429 $13,663 $3,859
AG UT % (inc AU) 11 11% 3%
INQ by CRA 0,0,0 0,0,0 0,0,0
Accts with bal (no AU) 4,4,4 6,6,6 6,6,6
EQ Fico 8 814 843 850
TU Fico 8 811 835 850
EX Fico 8 820 846 850
EQ Fico 04 (score 5) 768 749 764
TU Fico 04 (score 4) 795 806 818
EX Fico 04 (score 3) 771 791 819
EX Fico 98 (score 2) 787 787 820
EQ BCE Fico 04 (score 5) 763 743 776
TU BCE Fico 04 (score 4) 807 817 853
EX BCE Fico 98 (score 2) 792 792 845

Wow! Thank you for that @Thomas_Thumb

You've given me the answer, as I definitely have too many accounts with balances!!!

Actually, the scores I was referring to are from last month's report, so my recent dropping of 5 of 6 installment loans hasn't been factored in yet. Based on what you have said, I may gain some points in EQ FICO 5 from having made that move, although my revolver:loan ratio will be sky high.

As to whether the disparity between EQ FICO 5 and the other 2 mortgage scores is a recent development, I believe it is, but I never really paid much attention to it. And it's only within the past year and a half or so that I started having lots of accounts with balances.

As to the revolver: installment ratio, once my 5 closed loans have reported, the ratio of open revolvers to open installment loans will be very high -- 29:1

Re: Equifax mortgage score 67-70 points lower

AndySoCal — Tue, 08 Dec 2020 16:02:31 GMT

If you could please post the score reason /factor codes for each bureau. This might help in finding the why the score dropped.

Re: Equifax mortgage score 67-70 points lower

Thomas_Thumb — Tue, 08 Dec 2020 16:02:49 GMT

No worries, when I paid off my mortgage my open ratio jumped "to infinity and beyond" as Buzz would say

Re: Equifax mortgage score 67-70 points lower

SouthJamaica — Tue, 08 Dec 2020 16:34:30 GMT

@AndySoCal wrote:
If you could please post the score reason /factor codes for each bureau. This might help in finding the why the score dropped.

I didn't say that it dropped. I just noticed that it was much lower than the other 2 bureaus' mortgage scores.

Here are the reason codes:

Re: Equifax mortgage score 67-70 points lower

Anonymous — Tue, 08 Dec 2020 16:43:58 GMT

SJ, are those listed in order of importance, or does that not matter?

It appears that codes 1, 3 and 7 are the ones related to balances/accounts with balances, where the last one 7 is the one that points to what appears to be the major issue in terms of that one score being lower.

@Re: Equifax mortgage score 67-70 points lower

AndySoCal — Tue, 08 Dec 2020 21:45:30 GMT

@SouthJamaica

Sorry I should have used the word lower in my post. I agree with @Anonymous analysis on credit utilization being a factor. Also, I would the number of new accounts is also impacting the score. The score factor that I find interesting is score factor #5 which I have never seen before. I did little research but did not find anything that was helpful.

Re: Equifax mortgage score 67-70 points lower

SouthJamaica — Tue, 08 Dec 2020 21:49:14 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
SJ, are those listed in order of importance, or does that not matter?

It appears that codes 1, 3 and 7 are the ones related to balances/accounts with balances, where the last one 7 is the one that points to what appears to be the major issue in terms of that one score being lower.

That's just a screenshot from my 3B report, which I copied and pasted, so only MyFICO knows

Only the left hand column is applicable to EQ 5.

Re: @Re: Equifax mortgage score 67-70 points lower

SouthJamaica — Tue, 08 Dec 2020 21:50:02 GMT

@AndySoCal wrote:
@SouthJamaica
Sorry I should have used the word lower in my post. I agree with @Anonymous analysis on credit utilization being a factor. Also, I would the number of new accounts is also impacting the score. The score factor that I find interesting is score factor #5 which I have never seen before. I did little research but did not find anything that was helpful.

Only the 4 items in the left hand column are applicable to EQ 5.

Re: Equifax mortgage score 67-70 points lower

SouthJamaica — Tue, 08 Dec 2020 21:56:50 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
TT, I may have missed something but I don't believe SJ posted above that he paid off/closed 4 loans. He simply stated that 4 accounts fell off his report, so I'm thinking they were already closed and I don't believe account type was disclosed yet. Maybe from another thread you know something I don't, though.

Yes, I believe TT was referring to my other thread where I speculated on what the effect would be of my paying off 5 of my 6 open installment loans (in case you're wondering, 4 of the payoffs have so far been reported, and the net effect appears to have been +11 in EX FICO 2, and no change in EX FICO 8). That event is not pertinent to my post here, because this post is based on my pre-payoff report from last month.

Re: @Re: Equifax mortgage score 67-70 points lower

Anonymous — Sat, 19 Dec 2020 09:22:14 GMT

@AndySoCal wrote:
@SouthJamaica
Sorry I should have used the word lower in my post. I agree with @Anonymous analysis on credit utilization being a factor. Also, I would the number of new accounts is also impacting the score. The score factor that I find interesting is score factor #5 which I have never seen before. I did little research but did not find anything that was helpful.

@AndySoCal it's a big penalty on TU4 when you've got a lot of accounts.

Re: Equifax mortgage score 67-70 points lower

SouthJamaica — Sat, 19 Dec 2020 14:15:30 GMT

@SouthJamaica wrote:
@Thomas_Thumb wrote:
@SouthJamaica wrote:
I just noticed that my Equifax mortgage score is 67 points lower than TU 4 and 70 points lower than EX 2.

Wondering if anyone has a clue as to what peculiarities there are in Equifax 5 that would create such a large margin.

The only serious difference that I could detect in the data is that, due to Equifax having prematurely dropped 4 of my accounts, among them my second oldest, my AAoA on EQ is 4 yrs 1 month while it's 4 yrs 7 months on the others.
Equifax Fico 04 (score 5) is peculiar regarding its heightened sensitivity toward # of cards and accounts overall reporting balances. Much moreso than TU or EX based on posts from multiple members including BBS and CGID. Yes, I am certain QTY of accounts reporting is a scoring attribute different from %.

Has your EQ score dropped relative to TU and EX or have the other two scores risen to result in this large offset - or has the offset been there all along?

Side note 1: I don't believe all CRAs look at AAoA and AoOA of open loans as a metric. If EQ does and TU/EX do not, then the closure of your oldest installment loan might be a factor in the score difference.

Side note 2: It has been written that ratio of revolvers to installment loans is a metric. A "preferred" ratio of 2:1 or 3:1 (open revolvers to open loans) has been mentioned. This attribute may carry different weight depending on the CRA (as we know the base algorithms were customized per CRA request) particularly on older models. The closure of those loans likely took your ratio well above the 3:1 ratio. If EQ puts more weight on that than the other CRAs, that could contribute to the large score difference among your "mortgage" scores.

Side note 2: EQ Fico 8 and EQ Fico 9 are more accommodating toward a large number of accounts with balances relative to EQ Fico 04. In fact, the newer models penalize for having too few open accounts (such as no open installment loan or no open revolvers). Revelate has reported on numerous occassions that when Fico 8 was rolled out Fico members with just installment loans (no open revolvers) reported a substantial score drop on their then new Fico 8 score.

Side note 3: # of open accounts with a balance is a known scoring attribute. Fewer is better as long as one open revolver and ideally one installment loan report a balance. So, payoff/closure of 4 of your 6 loans is a positive by itself.

I can personally vouch for Classic EQ score 5 and its industry enhanced counterparts being hyper sensitive to # of cards with balances. That likely accounts for a portion, but not all, of the low EQ "mortgage" score.

Below is some of my data for comparison. See the low EQ Fico score 5 values relative to TU score 4 and EX score 3/EX score 2 in October. [Classic 54 - 56 points, BCE 69 - 77 points]. All CRAs list the same open accounts and same balances.
Note how the scores came closer together on 11/30 with fewer cards reporting balances.
Description 11/30/2020 11/5/2020 10/13/2020
Open Mortgages 0 1 1
Ag UT $ (Exclude AU) $13,395 $11,005 $2,951
Ag UT % (Exclude AU) 16% 13% 3%
High card $ (no AU) $9,664 $9,664 $1,829
High card UT % (no AU) 54% 54% 15%
AU card UT $ $1,034 $2,658 $908
AU card UT % 3% 8% 3%
AG UT $ (inc AU) $14,429 $13,663 $3,859
AG UT % (inc AU) 11 11% 3%
INQ by CRA 0,0,0 0,0,0 0,0,0
Accts with bal (no AU) 4,4,4 6,6,6 6,6,6
EQ Fico 8 814 843 850
TU Fico 8 811 835 850
EX Fico 8 820 846 850
EQ Fico 04 (score 5) 768 749 764
TU Fico 04 (score 4) 795 806 818
EX Fico 04 (score 3) 771 791 819
EX Fico 98 (score 2) 787 787 820
EQ BCE Fico 04 (score 5) 763 743 776
TU BCE Fico 04 (score 4) 807 817 853
EX BCE Fico 98 (score 2) 792 792 845

Wow! Thank you for that @Thomas_Thumb
You've given me the answer, as I definitely have too many accounts with balances!!!

Actually, the scores I was referring to are from last month's report, so my recent dropping of 5 of 6 installment loans hasn't been factored in yet. Based on what you have said, I may gain some points in EQ FICO 5 from having made that move, although my revolver:loan ratio will be sky high.

As to whether the disparity between EQ FICO 5 and the other 2 mortgage scores is a recent development, I believe it is, but I never really paid much attention to it. And it's only within the past year and a half or so that I started having lots of accounts with balances.

As to the revolver: installment ratio, once my 5 closed loans have reported, the ratio of open revolvers to open installment loans will be very high -- 29:1

Supporting Thomas_Thumb's pointer that the number of accounts with balances factor has greater effect in EQ 5 than in TU 4 and EX 2, in this month's report, which had fewer accounts with balances, EQ 5 jumped 21, the differential with TU dropped from 67 to 40, and that with EX dropped from 70 to 53.