topic Fico9 vs Fico8 - why such a huge difference? in Understanding FICO® Scoring

Fico9 vs Fico8 - why such a huge difference?

anik28 — Thu, 28 Jan 2021 20:50:26 GMT

Fico9 score is SO low compared to Fico8, does anyone know why this is? My Fico9 is 553 and My Fico8 is 620 - does anyone know why this is? I'm speaking on the phone with MyFico directly and she can't seem to give me reasons as to why the huge difference. Not going to lie, how are you ever supposed to get all these scores up when there's so many different ranges by Fico? She explained they're a mixture of all the Fico scores - an average.

Very frustrating, espeically when the credit files are the same. Sometimes I feel like these products are designed to just make money off people by making them pay for all these different scoring models. Any suggestions about how to drive up the Fico9? It seems most lenders these days are using this to approve (ie Apple)

Fico 9 TU [553] Ex [563] EQ [534]

Fico 8 TU [620] Ex [620] EQ [572]

Each model has about a 60 point difference, so I'm assuming when I get my Fico 8 Scores up another 50-60 points, the Fico 9 should follow hopefully. Seeing these really terrible Fico 9 scores makes me discouraged but I guess I just have to keep working at it. I will be using myfico scores only from now on, as these are truly only what the lender sees.

Any advice on how to get these Fico9 scores up, would be appreciated.

Re: Fico9 vs Fico8 - why such a huge difference?

Slabenstein — Thu, 28 Jan 2021 21:24:12 GMT

The short answer is that FICO9 is a different algorithm from FICO8 so it will weigh the same profile information differently, which will result in a different score. For some people, their 9's will be higher, for others the 8's will. I don't know much about the differences between 8 and 9, but I believe that 9 weighs recent history more heavily, so if you have had lates or derogs in the last two years, that could be a reason. If you want to post a more complete picture of your profile we can help you look for data that 9 might be weighing differently, but to raise your scores the same general strategies that work for 8 also work for 9: avoiding late payments, keeping utilization low, and letting accounts gain age.

Re: Fico9 vs Fico8 - why such a huge difference?

anik28 — Thu, 28 Jan 2021 21:38:26 GMT

@Slabenstein - here is the most current credit profile accounts and issues I am settling. I have perfect payment history as of the last 3 years and no derogs in the last 3 as well. All my lates and a car repossesion are nearing the 7 year mark. I have paid all my credit card balances down and made arrangments to pay off 2 of my 3 collection accounts, which are pay for delete from the CRA's. Besides these accounts listed below, I have 100% on time payment history & 50% overall UTL. Looking to get this down below 30% in the next 2 months.

Remaining Balances to pay:

800$ /1500CL to Nordstrom (down from 1400) - hope to get this down to about 400$ in Feb.

200$ / 300CL to Indigo (down from 300) - should I close this account once paid in full this month?

Paid Accounts:

0$ / $300 CL (CreditOne)

0$ /$300CL (US Bank Secured)

240$ /500CL (Capital One Quicksilver, this one is going to be my high use card that PIF before each statement cuts. will leave a $50-75$ balance for reporting to CB)

Collection accounts:

Old Santander Auto Loan C/O: $9,000 for removal in June 2021.

Old Nordstom C/O: Settled for $400, to be removed from CR.

Old Credit One C/O: Settled for $300, to be removed from CR.

Old Medical Bill: $800 owed, from 2018. Need to settle for removal.

Charged Off Account:

Citibank: $344 owed, 4/2017 default date. Citi will not remove even if I pay in full. I am still planning to pay this to relfect a 0 balance.

Current Scores as of 1/27/21

Vantage 3.0 Ex [617] EQ [612] TU [598]

Fico 8 Ex [621] EQ [572] TU [617]

Fico 3 Ex [563]

Fico 2 Auto Ex [608]

Fico Mortgage Ex [597]

Re: Fico9 vs Fico8 - why such a huge difference?

Slabenstein — Thu, 28 Jan 2021 22:01:55 GMT

Assuming 12 of the 13 FICO9 scorecards are the same as 8's, I think you'd be on on dirty/PR/mature w/ 67% highest individual util, 55% agg util, 3/5 accounts w/ a bal, one unpaid CO, four collections, and some number of 3+ yr old lates of some severity. You don't have any installment loans, correct? Unfortunately, the only thing I know about 9 that's relevant to what you've listed here is that it doesn't count medical collections where 8 does, which would be a positive for you and doesn't help explain why your 9's are lower. The main negatives in your reports are ofc the PRs and relatively high util, as well as possibly the lates, so it could be that the 9 algo's take a dimmer view of one or more of those things, but I don't know for sure. If the CO is still updating, that might be making it a "recent" derog. @Anonymous and other score experts, does anything here stand out to anyone?

Re: Fico9 vs Fico8 - why such a huge difference?

anik28 — Thu, 28 Jan 2021 22:07:32 GMT

@Slabenstein I do have student loans, about 15K through MOHELA. All are 100% on time, and payments have been frozen by the Biden admin until at least September. See below for credit mix factors - I believe the Fico 9 has not updated as quickly as my Fico 8's - could that be the reason? I just paid down a few of my cards to 0, which made my Fico 8 jump about 30 points.

I feel pretty discouraged but any insight will help. I know time will just have to pass for some of the derogs, the car loan actually already came off TU last summer, with little increase to my score. So I'm not even sure thats having a huge effect because its almost been 7 years. The 5+ accounts showing late would include the collections, correct? That seems like it could definitely be dragging me down.

Re: Fico9 vs Fico8 - why such a huge difference?

anik28 — Thu, 28 Jan 2021 22:12:05 GMT

snapshot of current Fico 8 scores

Re: Fico9 vs Fico8 - why such a huge difference?

Slabenstein — Thu, 28 Jan 2021 22:25:53 GMT

@anik28 wrote:
@Slabenstein I do have student loans, about 15K through MOHELA. All are 100% on time, and payments have been frozen by the Biden admin until at least September. See below for credit mix factors - I believe the Fico 9 has not updated as quickly as my Fico 8's - could that be the reason? I just paid down a few of my cards to 0, which made my Fico 8 jump about 30 points.

I feel pretty discouraged but any insight will help. I know time will just have to pass for some of the derogs, the car loan actually already came off TU last summer, with little increase to my score. So I'm not even sure thats having a huge effect because its almost been 7 years. The 5+ accounts showing late would include the collections, correct? That seems like it could definitely be dragging me down.

These are your score factors for FICO9, correct? For which bureau? If this is a screenshot from MyFICO, I don't know whether they would include collections in the "5 account(s) showing 30+ days late", but you can count your ever-been-late accounts yourself and see. Regardless, number of accounts showing any late payment is a scoring factor and has a negative impact if greater than 0. When you say FICO9 hasn't updated yet, do you mean that they haven't updated on MyFICO? If your MyFICO 9's are from an older pull than your 8's and you've had profile improvement between those dates, that could easily be behind part of your score differences between the two versions.

Re: Fico9 vs Fico8 - why such a huge difference?

anik28 — Thu, 28 Jan 2021 22:28:59 GMT

Maybe when the 2 collection accounts are removed, that will have a huge impact. It's showing my last late as 18+ months ago, which is in line of when the medical collection was added to my report. Here are the age of all my accounts as well:

Current & Active Accounts

MOHELA Student Loans - Opened 2017 & 2018 (Around 15K balance. All 100% payments)

Capital One QS - Opened Nov 2018.($240/500CL)

Credit One - Opened Nov 2019 (0 Balance/300CL)

Nordstrom - Opened December 2019 ($825/1500CL)

Indigo Card - Opened Feb 2020 ($200/300CL)

US Bank Secured - Opened April 2020 (0 Balance/300CL)

C/O Accounts

Santander Auto (Opened June 2014 / C/O Dec 2014) 9000$ owed

Citibank (Opened April 2015, C/0 April 2017) $344 owed

Collection Accounts

Grant Mercantile (Medical) - Opened Sept 2018 ($800 owed)

Cach LLC (Old Nordstrom) - Opened June 2014 (has been settled for deletion)

Credit One Bank (LVNV Funding) - Opened Nov 2017 (has been settled for deletion)

Santander Auto (Removed from TU in 2020. Removal from EQ & EX June 2021)

Closed Accounts

Discover Secured Card (Paid in full, 0$ balance) 1000$ CL - I closed this because they put me on a payment plan and locked my use of the card. Closed in 2018

Re: Fico9 vs Fico8 - why such a huge difference?

anik28 — Thu, 28 Jan 2021 22:34:04 GMT

@Slabenstein these are Fico 8 ingredients, just wanted to give you an idea of my credit mix. Fico 9 doesnt have this feature I don't believe. Fico 9 data says as of 1/28/21 - I'm just not sure if they truly are using the most current data. All my Fico 8 scores have gone up considerably in the past 2 months due to paying down debt. Fico 9's of mine have always been about 30 points lower, they inched up a bit but still are about 60 points lower than 8. I guess all I can do is hope that once I resolve some of the CA's that the Fico 9's jump way up. Currently, Apple will not approve me for an Apple Card because GS pulls Fico 9. The agent told me with a 630 they could approve me, but he's seeing 553 in the Fico 9. Discover & AMEX pull Fico 8 still I believe, in a few months when I try for pre-approvals on those - I may be able to get approved with a 650-670 Fico 8. Apple may just be one that I cannot get until 9's go way up.

Re: Fico9 vs Fico8 - why such a huge difference?

anik28 — Thu, 28 Jan 2021 22:37:27 GMT

@Slabenstein - to add, the credit ingredients are for Experian Fico 8. TU Fico 8 has the same ingredients. I see why EQ may be so low, its showing that I have 8 accounts with 30+ days late - vs. the 5+ reporting to the other 2 CRA's.

Re: Fico9 vs Fico8 - why such a huge difference?

dragontears — Thu, 28 Jan 2021 23:14:18 GMT

Could you please post a screen shot of your FICO 9 scores and their negative reason codes?

@anik28 wrote:

snapshot of current Fico 8 scores

Re: Fico9 vs Fico8 - why such a huge difference?

Slabenstein — Thu, 28 Jan 2021 23:17:24 GMT

Have you had any lates or derogatories in the last 24 mo's other than the medical collection? I'm not sure what kind of score increase you would see on 8 or 9 after the two PFD'd collections are removed; you might see an increase on TU9 since you'll be at zero scorable collections there, w/ comparable increases on EX9 & EQ9 in June, but you would still have the CO's holding down your score so I'm not sure. @Anonymous knows a lot more about CO's and CA's than I do, so maybe she can give you a better idea.

If the 9's on your MyFICO give 1/28/21 as their pull dates, then they're current. FICO9 and FICO8 scores generate from the same CRA data, so one is as up to date as the other if they have the same pull date.

If your current 9's are a barrier to approval w/ the lenders that use that version, you can check this list of lenders and the score versions and bureaus they're known to pull so you can strategize your apping and not burn HPs.

Since those are your FICO8 score ingredients posted above, it's very interesting that you have "Exceptional" credit mix; how to achieve that is something the community has been debating for a while. CO's and CA's aside, the only tradelines you have on your EX report are revolvers and your student loans, correct?

Re: Fico9 vs Fico8 - why such a huge difference?

Anonymous — Fri, 29 Jan 2021 07:22:28 GMT

@Slabenstein wrote:
Assuming 12 of the 13 FICO9 scorecards are the same as 8's, I think you'd be on on dirty/PR/mature w/ 67% highest individual util, 55% agg util, 3/5 accounts w/ a bal, one unpaid CO, four collections, and some number of 3+ yr old lates of some severity. You don't have any installment loans, correct? Unfortunately, the only thing I know about 9 that's relevant to what you've listed here is that it doesn't count medical collections where 8 does, which would be a positive for you and doesn't help explain why your 9's are lower. The main negatives in your reports are ofc the PRs and relatively high util, as well as possibly the lates, so it could be that the 9 algo's take a dimmer view of one or more of those things, but I don't know for sure. If the CO is still updating, that might be making it a "recent" derog. @Anonymous and other score experts, does anything here stand out to anyone?

@Slabenstein I haven't read the rest of the thread yet, but the first thing I notice is: are those really collections or are they chargeoffs? And where is the corresponding OC chargeoff? Also version 9 does count medical collections, it simply weights them less.

Re: Fico9 vs Fico8 - why such a huge difference?

Anonymous — Fri, 29 Jan 2021 07:28:21 GMT

@anik28 wrote:
Maybe when the 2 collection accounts are removed, that will have a huge impact. It's showing my last late as 18+ months ago, which is in line of when the medical collection was added to my report. Here are the age of all my accounts as well:

Current & Active Accounts
MOHELA Student Loans - Opened 2017 & 2018 (Around 15K balance. All 100% payments)
Capital One QS - Opened Nov 2018.($240/500CL)
Credit One - Opened Nov 2019 (0 Balance/300CL)
Nordstrom - Opened December 2019 ($825/1500CL)
Indigo Card - Opened Feb 2020 ($200/300CL)
US Bank Secured - Opened April 2020 (0 Balance/300CL)

C/O Accounts
Santander Auto (Opened June 2014 / C/O Dec 2014) 9000$ owed
Citibank (Opened April 2015, C/0 April 2017) $344 owed

Collection Accounts
Grant Mercantile (Medical) - Opened Sept 2018 ($800 owed)
Cach LLC (Old Nordstrom) - Opened June 2014 (has been settled for deletion)
Credit One Bank (LVNV Funding) - Opened Nov 2017 (has been settled for deletion)
Santander Auto (Removed from TU in 2020. Removal from EQ & EX June 2021)

Closed Accounts
Discover Secured Card (Paid in full, 0$ balance) 1000$ CL - I closed this because they put me on a payment plan and locked my use of the card. Closed in 2018

@anik28 OK this post laid out the collections and chargeoffs better. Know that removing collections isn't really going to help your score much until you remove the very last one and then you'll see a nice increase.

Also the versions are not updated separately. The credit report data is updated and then the algorithms run and generate the scores from that data.

Re: Fico9 vs Fico8 - why such a huge difference?

Anonymous — Fri, 29 Jan 2021 07:31:03 GMT

@Slabenstein wrote:
Have you had any lates or derogatories in the last 24 mo's other than the medical collection? I'm not sure what kind of score increase you would see on 8 or 9 after the two PFD'd collections are removed; you might see an increase on TU9 since you'll be at zero scorable collections there, w/ comparable increases on EX9 & EQ9 in June, but you would still have the CO's holding down your score so I'm not sure. @Anonymous knows a lot more about CO's and CA's than I do, so maybe she can give you a better idea.

If the 9's on your MyFICO give 1/28/21 as their pull dates, then they're current. FICO9 and FICO8 scores generate from the same CRA data, so one is as up to date as the other if they have the same pull date.

If your current 9's are a barrier to approval w/ the lenders that use that version, you can check this list of lenders and the score versions and bureaus they're known to pull so you can strategize your apping and not burn HPs.

Since those are your FICO8 score ingredients posted above, it's very interesting that you have "Exceptional" credit mix; how to achieve that is something the community has been debating for a while. CO's and CA's aside, the only tradelines you have on your EX report are revolvers and your student loans, correct?

@Slabenstein Lol, A collection is an account type. That's why I previously said having one of every type is not necessarily beneficial.

Re: Fico9 vs Fico8 - why such a huge difference?

Anonymous — Fri, 29 Jan 2021 07:32:13 GMT

@anik28 a question, do you have any loan modifications on your credit report?

Re: Fico9 vs Fico8 - why such a huge difference?

anik28 — Fri, 29 Jan 2021 07:35:09 GMT

@Slabenstein interesting to know that even removing two CA's won't help me much, until I get them all off. I guess waiting out the deletion date is going to be the real bump. That's a bit painful because the medical collection will likely not delete even if I pay, I can try. That one will not remove until 2024/25 which is going to hurt for a long time, being that most other negatives will be long gone by then.

all I have are revolving accounts and student loans (installment) I don't have a mortgage, auto loan or any other type of loan. I'm holding off on purchasing a car until I clean this mess up; especially until the old repossession falls off this summer.

Re: Fico9 vs Fico8 - why such a huge difference?

anik28 — Fri, 29 Jan 2021 07:39:14 GMT

@Anonymous I do not. Like mentioned above, all I have are the revolving credit cards and student loans. I have nothing to refinance as I do not own a home or a car. I'm in my late twenties and made mistakes with credit in my early 20's - I didn't even have a chance to think about a car purchase or home purchase because of the damage done. My goal is by 30 to have much of this in line, which I think is completely doable. I'm just very concerned about these Fico 9 scores being so low. It seems like I'd have to get my Fico 8 scores close to 700 to even get the Fico9's to low / mid 600's if the logic is what I'm seeing now.

Thanks for all the help!

Re: Fico9 vs Fico8 - why such a huge difference?

Anonymous — Fri, 29 Jan 2021 19:29:51 GMT

@anik28 wrote:
@Anonymous I do not. Like mentioned above, all I have are the revolving credit cards and student loans. I have nothing to refinance as I do not own a home or a car. I'm in my late twenties and made mistakes with credit in my early 20's - I didn't even have a chance to think about a car purchase or home purchase because of the damage done. My goal is by 30 to have much of this in line, which I think is completely doable. I'm just very concerned about these Fico 9 scores being so low. It seems like I'd have to get my Fico 8 scores close to 700 to even get the Fico9's to low / mid 600's if the logic is what I'm seeing now.

Thanks for all the help!

@anik28 no problem that's what we're here for. But you have student loans, is it possible you have a loan modification entry on any of those? The reason I ask is, version 9 considers that derogatory where version 8 does not. That could account for the disparity.

also be aware that medical collections are treated less harshly by version 9, in a special category of their own. So therefore you will probably see an increase if you get rid of all collections other than the medical collection. Also further good news:

Version 9 ignores paid collections. So paying collections on version 8 does not increase score unless all collections over $100 are deleted, but on version 9, once it's paid it no longer counts against you. 😉

so you want your version 9 to go up? Pay the collection. Get PFDs on everyone you can to help your version 8, and pay the remaining one to help your version 9! There's a game plan for you!

Re: Fico9 vs Fico8 - why such a huge difference?

anik28 — Sun, 31 Jan 2021 22:11:01 GMT

@dragontears see reasons. It says I have high credit usage but I just paid 2 of my cards to 0, those have not yet reported for the monthly cycle. Also negative items are listed, which would probably be the collections and c/o accounts.