topic Re: Why is my FICO 5 so much higher than my FICO 8 (normally it's the other way around)? in Understanding FICO® Scoring

Why is my FICO 5 so much higher than my FICO 8 (normally it's the other way around)?

OscarsMom — Sat, 24 Jun 2023 18:35:27 GMT

I understand that there is a difference between Vantage and FICO scores because they're completely different scoring models.

But my FICO 5 (the EQ mortgage score) is over 90 points higher than my FICO 8 (used for CCs and many loan products). Presumably my FICO 9 is lower too, since the two are usually close, right?

Isn't this the opposite of what most people experience? I don't have a mortgage - is that why? I can't think of another reason why they'd be so far apart, as the scoring percentages aren't THAT different.

I'm limited to only Equifax scores, as nothing shows for me for TU or EX, after living outside the US for a long time until 2018. And I appear to be further limited to lenders who pull EQ 5 (I have the list) because the difference is so extreme (728 vs 636).

Re: Why is my FICO 5 so much higher than my FICO 8 (normally it's the other way around)?

FireMedic1 — Sat, 24 Jun 2023 19:59:38 GMT

FICO 5 uses information from Equifax, while FICO 8 takes information from all three major credit reporting agencies. FICO Score 2 and FICO Score 4 (which are similar to FICO 5) are from Experian and TransUnion, respectively. Different scoring models.

Re: Why is my FICO 5 so much higher than my FICO 8 (normally it's the other way around)?

OscarsMom — Sat, 24 Jun 2023 20:10:39 GMT

@FireMedic1 I have to admit I'm still confused.

Right here on MyFICO it says my FICO 8 score of 636 is "based on Equifax data." There are two empty circles where my TU and EX scores should be. I know I can add them as a premium feature, but since I know from going to TU and EX that I'm "unscoreable," I haven't bothered.

So even though it looks like the FICO 8 is from Equifax alone, Equifax is actually pulling data (or non-data in my case) from TU and EX to give their score? But the Equifax 5 score is only based on my Equifax report. Do I have that right?

(Former EMT/SAR by the way. Fist bump.)

Re: Why is my FICO 5 so much higher than my FICO 8 (normally it's the other way around)?

FireMedic1 — Sat, 24 Jun 2023 20:14:58 GMT

There's 28 FICO scoring models/scores and they all act differently to changes on your file. Catagory for each model when applying.

Re: Why is my FICO 5 so much higher than my FICO 8 (normally it's the other way around)?

OscarsMom — Sat, 24 Jun 2023 20:25:23 GMT

@FireMedic1 I appreciate the chart, and I get they use different scoring criteria. But a spread of 92 points still feels off to me.

It seems like it's a catch-22. Getting more credit would potentially raise my FICO 8, but I can't get more credit because my FICO 8 is too low.

Re: Why is my FICO 5 so much higher than my FICO 8 (normally it's the other way around)?

GZG — Sat, 24 Jun 2023 21:18:04 GMT

@OscarsMom wrote:
@FireMedic1 I appreciate the chart, and I get they use different scoring criteria. But a spread of 92 points still feels off to me.

It seems like it's a catch-22. Getting more credit would potentially raise my FICO 8, but I can't get more credit because my FICO 8 is too low.

rather than trying to solve why the scores are different, if you tell us what's currently on your profile, we can tell you why your FICO 8 is only 630 and how you might increase it

we assume it's a young, thin file if everything has fallen off since you've been out of the country, but we can't know without knowing what's currently reporting for you

Re: Why is my FICO 5 so much higher than my FICO 8 (normally it's the other way around)?

OscarsMom — Sat, 24 Jun 2023 21:44:47 GMT

@GZG, Same stuff on both, other than my FICO 5 showing an old JC Penney's card from 1991 that weirdly they have recorded as opened and closed on the same day (but it says "pays as agreed").

The only thing that is reporting is my single CC: a Cap One Platinum. Both FICO 8 and 5 show the utilization as wrong. I have a limit of $500, and have a balance of $300, and the utilization is showing as 100%. Other people have noted the same issue here on this forum with EQ.

I don't see any collections, derogatory remarks, old accounts, etc. No old mortgage (dropped off in 2017) or student loans (paid off in the '90s). Never had a car payment in my life.

I don't understand the difference between the two EQ scores, nor do I get why EQ can somehow produce a score for me but TU and EX cannot. The EQ score was there, BTW, before I applied for and got my Cap One card, so that's not what's giving me my EQ score.

Re: Why is my FICO 5 so much higher than my FICO 8 (normally it's the other way around)?

Thomas_Thumb — Sun, 25 Jun 2023 07:47:02 GMT

@OscarsMom wrote:
I understand that there is a difference between Vantage and FICO scores because they're completely different scoring models.

But my FICO 5 (the EQ mortgage score) is over 90 points higher than my FICO 8 (used for CCs and many loan products). Presumably my FICO 9 is lower too, since the two are usually close, right?

Isn't this the opposite of what most people experience? I don't have a mortgage - is that why? I can't think of another reason why they'd be so far apart, as the scoring percentages aren't THAT different.

I'm limited to only Equifax scores, as nothing shows for me for TU or EX, after living outside the US for a long time until 2018. And I appear to be further limited to lenders who pull EQ 5 (I have the list) because the difference is so extreme (728 vs 636).

Fico 8 has 12 scorecards - 8 clean and 4 dirty. Fico 9 has 13 scorecards - 8 clean, 4 dirty and 1 for high revolving utilization. The older Fico 04 and Fico 98 models have 10 scorecards - 8 clean and 2 dirty.

Fico EQ score 5, TU score 4 and EX score 3 are all based on the Fico 04 model. Fico EX score 2 is based on the Fico 98 base model.

While it is true that lack of an open loan can cost 30 points on Fico 8 but not the older Fico models, your score difference suggests something else as well. For example, you could be on a clean scorecard for EQ score 5 but a dirty one for EQ Fico 8. A Fico 8 score below 640 typically indicates a delinquency on file.

That being said, a select few clean, thin file posters have been able get down to the 600 -620 level by maxing out revolving utilization. They also had a short open account credit history.

As an FYI, EQ score 5 only goes to 818, TU score 4 goes to 839 and EX score 2 goes to 844. Thus, people with high Classic Fico 8 scores (say 780 and above almost always have lower Classic Fico mortgage scores. The situation tends to reverse itself when Fico 8 scores are below 700. In the 700 to 780 range it is often a toss-up as which is higher.

You need to get your credit report. Also, you can sign up on Credit Karma to look at account limits and balances.

A short, thin credit history may hurt more on Fico 8. High aggregate revolving utilization hurts more on Fico 8 as well. If you only have one open credit card then both individual and aggregate utilization will be the same - 100% in your case.

If utilization says 100% on EQ, perhaps you have a split file with that CRA.

I once had a $5000 CL account report as $300 to the CRAs after I had closed the account. No idea what happened but I did dispute the low CL

Re: Why is my FICO 5 so much higher than my FICO 8 (normally it's the other way around)?

GZG — Sat, 24 Jun 2023 23:08:33 GMT

@OscarsMom wrote:
@GZG, Same stuff on both, other than my FICO 5 showing an old JC Penney's card from 1991 that weirdly they have recorded as opened and closed on the same day (but it says "pays as agreed").

both scores are generated from the same information, so we need to know what's actually still being reported, open and closed

https://www.annualcreditreport.com

get your report(s) from here and tell us what is all reporting and how it's being reported

this should clear up any confusion about why they're saying you have 100% utilization when the card is only 3/5 utilized

Re: Why is my FICO 5 so much higher than my FICO 8 (normally it's the other way around)?

OscarsMom — Sun, 25 Jun 2023 00:32:42 GMT

@GZG I just went through all three credit reports line by line. They each say the same thing:

One account, the aforementioned Capital One card
No other revolving or installment accounts/loans, mortgages, collections, or derogatory items
Two hard inquiries, one from Cap One and another from Citi (expected)

They have varying soft inquiries but I'm not worried about them, as no one else should see them. Only the Equifax report mentioned the old JCP account - I have no idea why, but I don't care, as it's not hurting me. Perhaps, though, it points to having a longer credit history that gives me a score with them and not TU or EX?

There was some incorrect information in all three regarding phone numbers and addresses, and Experian had the wrong SSN for me. Those might explain some online ID authentication issues and will be disputed. I suppose now I will have to go down the Lexis Nexis h***hole to see if that's in there too. I tried to do the online dispute right there with Experian and it logged me out the second I disputed the SSN. You can't even use their regular dispute line to remove an incorrect social. You have to call a dedicated number for that. Fun.

Is there any benefit to freezing Experian and/or Lexis Nexis while I'm trying to open a CU account right now? It seems like it will be simple to correct Equifax and TU, but the Experian mistakes are going to be more of a headache? Can you freeze a bureau during a dispute?

I will have to figure out how to deal with having a separate mailing and residential address, as a couple of reports had my mailing address as "current" and my residential address as "former." I've read not to remove the mailing address, as that's where my billing and banking goes. But it's a UPS store, not a residence (we don't have USPS delivery).

Experian also had a flag in the report that the mailing address was suspicious as it's "multifamily" address that is associated with mail drop services. IDK what I'm supposed to do about that. I have to get my mail somehow. I had a USPS box, but they made too many errors in giving my parcels to other people, so I switched.

Equifax reports my CL as $300, which is why my balance of $300 on a $500 card looks like 100% utilization. That will be disputed as well. Like I said, it's some kind of EQ glitch that others have talked about on this forum. However, that doesn't explain, IMO, a 92-point difference between two Equifax scores.

Re: Why is my FICO 5 so much higher than my FICO 8 (normally it's the other way around)?

FireMedic1 — Sun, 25 Jun 2023 00:33:44 GMT

Well at least you know now whats more important to get fixed. Might be holding you back.

Re: Why is my FICO 5 so much higher than my FICO 8 (normally it's the other way around)?

OscarsMom — Sun, 25 Jun 2023 01:42:07 GMT

@FireMedic1, Since I only have EQ scores anyway, does it make sense to freeze my EX report while I'm submitting some CU applications? I would prefer not to wait out the dispute period to apply.

I feel like the EQ and TU issues are minor and can be sorted out. But with a wrong SSN and a bunch of address issues, EX is more of a hurdle.

ETA: to be clear, I'm not trying to game the system. I just don't want potentially fraud-related info with the SSN biting me when trying to prove my identity. Nor do I want erroneous fraud warnings about my mailing address to keep me from getting accepted.

Re: Why is my FICO 5 so much higher than my FICO 8 (normally it's the other way around)?

GZG — Sun, 25 Jun 2023 04:32:09 GMT

@OscarsMom wrote:
@GZG I just went through all three credit reports line by line. They each say the same thing:

One account, the aforementioned Capital One card
No other revolving or installment accounts/loans, mortgages, collections, or derogatory items
Two hard inquiries, one from Cap One and another from Citi (expected)
a 30 year old card still reporting on your EQ is extremely relevant information, how is it reporting?
They have varying soft inquiries but I'm not worried about them, as no one else should see them. correct Only the Equifax report mentioned the old JCP account - I have no idea why, but I don't care, as it's not hurting me it could seriously be helping - how does it report?. Perhaps, though, it points to having a longer credit history that gives me a score with them and not TU or EX?

Is there any benefit to freezing Experian and/or Lexis Nexis while I'm trying to open a CU account right now? Due to TOS here, nobody can actively tell you to do that. Regardless, I doubt it will help, they are going to pull who they are going to pull. Perhaps you can call and ask first to see who they pull and if they will pull different CRAs if others are frozen.

Equifax reports my CL as $300, which is why my balance of $300 on a $500 card looks like 100% utilization. That very well can be a 80-120 point difference. Did you go from $300 to $500 recently? or have you always been at $500? I would first ask to see if Capital One will correct their reporting to EQ, otherwise, you can simply include in a dispute for them to report the proper credit limit. That will be disputed as well. Like I said, it's some kind of EQ glitch that others have talked about on this forum. However, that doesn't explain, IMO, a 92-point difference between two Equifax scores. It can. I'm not really sure if Fico 5 isn't as punishing for utilization, but being 100% total utlization will destroy your Fico 8 scores, to the tune of 80-120 - more? points. Consider paying down your balances prior to the statement date (the day you get your bill) so the balance that gets reported is really low ~5%.

Re: Why is my FICO 5 so much higher than my FICO 8 (normally it's the other way around)?

Thomas_Thumb — Sun, 25 Jun 2023 07:52:35 GMT

@OscarsMom wrote:
@FireMedic1, Since I only have EQ scores anyway, does it make sense to freeze my EX report while I'm submitting some CU applications? I would prefer not to wait out the dispute period to apply.

I feel like the EQ and TU issues are minor and can be sorted out. But with a wrong SSN and a bunch of address issues, EX is more of a hurdle.

Many card issuers only pull from one CRA. Could be EX or TU. If you don't have the correct SSN associated with the CRA they pull or that CRA is frozen then expect a denial.

You priority should be fixing your CRA reports - SSN and accounts reporting the same to all CRAs.

BTW - If the 30 year old card only shows on EQ then that may be the reason why you have a score on EQ but not TU or EX. Once the Cap One has over 6 months history the other CRAs should start reporting a score.

Side note - it is fine to talk about freezing reports and providing recommendations one way or the other. It is done regularly on MyFico. Nothing TOS about it. Many people do freeze their reports to reduce risk of fraud and unfreeze when applying for credit. Some just leave LN frozen indefinitely.

Re: Why is my FICO 5 so much higher than my FICO 8 (normally it's the other way around)?

FireMedic1 — Sun, 25 Jun 2023 10:12:41 GMT

I finished with get your house of credit in order with the same info on all 3 CRA's. @Thomas_Thumb also posted basically the same thing. Work on getting all the CRA's in-line with your info. One Mortgage score quirk is the least of your worries at the moment.

Re: Why is my FICO 5 so much higher than my FICO 8 (normally it's the other way around)?

SouthJamaica — Sun, 25 Jun 2023 16:04:44 GMT

@OscarsMom wrote:
I understand that there is a difference between Vantage and FICO scores because they're completely different scoring models.

But my FICO 5 (the EQ mortgage score) is over 90 points higher than my FICO 8 (used for CCs and many loan products). Presumably my FICO 9 is lower too, since the two are usually close, right?

Isn't this the opposite of what most people experience? I don't have a mortgage - is that why? I can't think of another reason why they'd be so far apart, as the scoring percentages aren't THAT different.

I'm limited to only Equifax scores, as nothing shows for me for TU or EX, after living outside the US for a long time until 2018. And I appear to be further limited to lenders who pull EQ 5 (I have the list) because the difference is so extreme (728 vs 636).

The fact that you do or don't have a mortgage is irrelevant. The mortgage scores are not really "industry" scores designed for real estate mortgages; they're just old FICO classic scores that have continued to be used for mortgages, for historical reasons.

Based on my experience, I believe that the primary differences between the mortage scores and the FICO 8 scores are as follows:

1. The "age" factors, such as inquiries, new accounts, average age of accounts... are weighed more heavily in the mortgage scores.
2. The mortgage scores are more concerned with number of zero account balances; the more the better, except that one bank card should report a balance each month.
3. The mortgage scores penalize more heavily for very high utilization individual accounts.
4. The FICO 8 scores penalize more heavily for high aggregate utilization.
5. Very low installment utilization (9% or lower aggregate) is rewarded in FICO 8, usually ignored or given little effect in mortgage scores.

I wonder if, after taking a look at your own profile, you find any of these resonate.

Re: Why is my FICO 5 so much higher than my FICO 8 (normally it's the other way around)?

SouthJamaica — Sun, 25 Jun 2023 16:11:39 GMT

@OscarsMom wrote:
@GZG I just went through all three credit reports line by line. They each say the same thing:

One account, the aforementioned Capital One card
No other revolving or installment accounts/loans, mortgages, collections, or derogatory items
Two hard inquiries, one from Cap One and another from Citi (expected)
They have varying soft inquiries but I'm not worried about them, as no one else should see them. Only the Equifax report mentioned the old JCP account - I have no idea why, but I don't care, as it's not hurting me. Perhaps, though, it points to having a longer credit history that gives me a score with them and not TU or EX?

There was some incorrect information in all three regarding phone numbers and addresses, and Experian had the wrong SSN for me. Those might explain some online ID authentication issues and will be disputed. I suppose now I will have to go down the Lexis Nexis h***hole to see if that's in there too. I tried to do the online dispute right there with Experian and it logged me out the second I disputed the SSN. You can't even use their regular dispute line to remove an incorrect social. You have to call a dedicated number for that. Fun.

Is there any benefit to freezing Experian and/or Lexis Nexis while I'm trying to open a CU account right now? It seems like it will be simple to correct Equifax and TU, but the Experian mistakes are going to be more of a headache? Can you freeze a bureau during a dispute?

I will have to figure out how to deal with having a separate mailing and residential address, as a couple of reports had my mailing address as "current" and my residential address as "former." I've read not to remove the mailing address, as that's where my billing and banking goes. But it's a UPS store, not a residence (we don't have USPS delivery).

Experian also had a flag in the report that the mailing address was suspicious as it's "multifamily" address that is associated with mail drop services. IDK what I'm supposed to do about that. I have to get my mail somehow. I had a USPS box, but they made too many errors in giving my parcels to other people, so I switched.

Equifax reports my CL as $300, which is why my balance of $300 on a $500 card looks like 100% utilization. That will be disputed as well. Like I said, it's some kind of EQ glitch that others have talked about on this forum. However, that doesn't explain, IMO, a 92-point difference between two Equifax scores.

Well if I'm reading you right, you have no open or closed loans, no closed credit cards, and one open credit card that's being reported as maxed out. That is about the thinnest file I can imagine, so that scoring it would be a challenge for any algorithm. If I were you I wouldn't concern myself with the scores at this point. I would proceed as you are already proceeding, looking for the right credit union to join, and then opening a nice credit card.

Re: Why is my FICO 5 so much higher than my FICO 8 (normally it's the other way around)?

OscarsMom — Sun, 25 Jun 2023 17:27:26 GMT

@SouthJamaica @FireMedic1 @Thomas_Thumb @GZG

Thanks, all, for weighing in and offering your sage advice.

I think the JCP account on EQ is probably the reason they have a score for me and no one else does. Even that's screwed up, as they say the age of my report is 16 years, but the card goes back to 1991, which is 32 years.

I guess the incorrect utilization percentage with my Cap One could be negatively affecting my FICO 8. As it's my only card, it's used for both individual account utilization and aggregate utilization. My goal is to pay it down next month and keep a tiny balance on it moving forward.

I'm looking at CUs that pull EQ 5, and I have list of several. However, I did see a DCU soft inquiry on my EX report from my recent attempt to join with a failed online ID authentication. So, they're clearly not just using EQ 5. Maybe it was because of ID issues, IDK.

While in theory it's ideal to clear up the CRA stuff first before reapplying to DCU or trying other credit unions, from posts here on the forum, I can see that it could take months to resolve the EX issues, and they might even refuse to remove some things. Old addresses are one thing; an incorrect SSN I don't recognize is another, as well as a flag that my mailing address might be involved in fraudulent activity (not sure if I can even get that removed).

So, I'll probably freeze EX for now, clear up minor stuff on EQ and TU right away, and go back to EX when I have the time to deal with their nonsense. If a lender that is categorized as EQ needs me to unfreeze EX, that's a DP that's good to have and share here. I'll have to figure out what to do if and when that happens.

If I freeze Lexis Nexis indefinitely, will that affect ID verification or future credit requests negatively? Do people get asked to unfreeze their LN when applying for CCs or loans?

Re: Why is my FICO 5 so much higher than my FICO 8 (normally it's the other way around)?

SouthJamaica — Sun, 25 Jun 2023 17:28:20 GMT

@SouthJamaica wrote:
@OscarsMom wrote:
@GZG I just went through all three credit reports line by line. They each say the same thing:

One account, the aforementioned Capital One card
No other revolving or installment accounts/loans, mortgages, collections, or derogatory items
Two hard inquiries, one from Cap One and another from Citi (expected)
They have varying soft inquiries but I'm not worried about them, as no one else should see them. Only the Equifax report mentioned the old JCP account - I have no idea why, but I don't care, as it's not hurting me. Perhaps, though, it points to having a longer credit history that gives me a score with them and not TU or EX?

There was some incorrect information in all three regarding phone numbers and addresses, and Experian had the wrong SSN for me. Those might explain some online ID authentication issues and will be disputed. I suppose now I will have to go down the Lexis Nexis h***hole to see if that's in there too. I tried to do the online dispute right there with Experian and it logged me out the second I disputed the SSN. You can't even use their regular dispute line to remove an incorrect social. You have to call a dedicated number for that. Fun.

Is there any benefit to freezing Experian and/or Lexis Nexis while I'm trying to open a CU account right now? It seems like it will be simple to correct Equifax and TU, but the Experian mistakes are going to be more of a headache? Can you freeze a bureau during a dispute?

I will have to figure out how to deal with having a separate mailing and residential address, as a couple of reports had my mailing address as "current" and my residential address as "former." I've read not to remove the mailing address, as that's where my billing and banking goes. But it's a UPS store, not a residence (we don't have USPS delivery).

Experian also had a flag in the report that the mailing address was suspicious as it's "multifamily" address that is associated with mail drop services. IDK what I'm supposed to do about that. I have to get my mail somehow. I had a USPS box, but they made too many errors in giving my parcels to other people, so I switched.

Equifax reports my CL as $300, which is why my balance of $300 on a $500 card looks like 100% utilization. That will be disputed as well. Like I said, it's some kind of EQ glitch that others have talked about on this forum. However, that doesn't explain, IMO, a 92-point difference between two Equifax scores.

Well if I'm reading you right, you have no open or closed loans, no closed credit cards, and one open credit card that's being reported as maxed out. That is about the thinnest file I can imagine, so that scoring it would be a challenge for any algorithm. If I were you I wouldn't concern myself with the scores at this point. I would proceed as you are already proceeding, looking for the right credit union to join, and then opening a nice credit card.

Also I'd make sure my one card reports a balance that is 28% or less of the reported limit. If EQ is erroneously reporting a $300 limit then I would make sure the reported balance never exceeds $80.

Re: Why is my FICO 5 so much higher than my FICO 8 (normally it's the other way around)?

SouthJamaica — Sun, 25 Jun 2023 17:35:36 GMT

@OscarsMom wrote:
@SouthJamaica @FireMedic1 @Thomas_Thumb @GZG

Thanks, all, for weighing in and offering your sage advice.

I think the JCP account on EQ is probably the reason they have a score for me and no one else does. Even that's screwed up, as they say the age of my report is 16 years, but the card goes back to 1991, which is 32 years.

This explains why your mortgage score is higher than your FICO 8 score... the fact that your profile, while very thin, is also very aged. The mortgage scores love age.

I guess the incorrect utilization percentage with my Cap One could be negatively affecting my FICO 8. As it's my only card, it's used for both individual account utilization and aggregate utilization. My goal is to pay it down next month and keep a tiny balance on it moving forward.

Yes. But that would also be affecting your FICO 5. Definitely make sure that the reported balance is $84 or less for now, and when the limit is correctly reported as $500, make sure the reported balance does not exceed $140.

I'm looking at CUs that pull EQ 5, and I have list of several. However, I did see a DCU soft inquiry on my EX report from my recent attempt to join with a failed online ID authentication. So, they're clearly not just using EQ 5. Maybe it was because of ID issues, IDK.

While in theory it's ideal to clear up the CRA stuff first before reapplying to DCU or trying other credit unions, from posts here on the forum, I can see that it could take months to resolve the EX issues, and they might even refuse to remove some things. Old addresses are one thing; an incorrect SSN I don't recognize is another, as well as a flag that my mailing address might be involved in fraudulent activity (not sure if I can even get that removed).

So, I'll probably freeze EX for now, clear up minor stuff on EQ and TU right away, and go back to EX when I have the time to deal with their nonsense. If a lender that is categorized as EQ needs me to unfreeze EX, that's a DP that's good to have and share here. I'll have to figure out what to do if and when that happens.

If I freeze Lexis Nexis indefinitely, will that affect ID verification or future credit requests negatively? Do people get asked to unfreeze their LN when applying for CCs or loans?

I can tell you that when I got a copy of my LN report and realized how crazy it was, I sent them a very detailed letter pointing out each error, and explaining why it was an error. To my surprise, they reacted very responsibly and cleaned up the report!!! I was surprised that an agency which had let things go in so haphazardly, would take them out so professionally when notified. So you might want to try that approach, instead of just freezing it indefinitely.