topic Re: FICO 10T vs. Vantage 4 in Understanding FICO® Scoring

FICO 10T vs. Vantage 4

PepsterinBklyn — Fri, 05 Apr 2024 08:48:46 GMT

I'm very puzzled . Between my (3) FICO 10T scores, the lowest one is 838. Understanding that Vantage 4 is also trended data, I don't understand why my Vantage 4 is 40 points lower. It's the same trending data albeit Vantage 4 is a score based on a tri-merged report.

Re: FICO 10T vs. Vantage 4

Horseshoez — Fri, 05 Apr 2024 13:28:46 GMT

@PepsterinBklyn wrote:
I'm very puzzled . Between my (3) FICO 10T scores, the lowest one is 838. Understanding that Vantage 4 is also trended data, I don't understand why my Vantage 4 is 40 points lower. It's the same trending data albeit Vantage 4 is a score based on a tri-merged report.

The underlying data may well be the same, however, the scoring models are different; odds are pretty good they will never totally line up.

Re: FICO 10T vs. Vantage 4

FicoMike0 — Fri, 05 Apr 2024 13:38:40 GMT

I don't have access to either. Comparing fico8 with v3, I have determined they handle closed accounts differently. V3 ignores them for account age calculations. Fico8 counts them. I have an old, closed cc on my reports. This boosts my average age for fico8, increasing that score vs v3.

Re: FICO 10T vs. Vantage 4

Slabenstein — Fri, 05 Apr 2024 14:20:18 GMT

@PepsterinBklyn wrote:
I'm very puzzled . Between my (3) FICO 10T scores, the lowest one is 838. Understanding that Vantage 4 is also trended data, I don't understand why my Vantage 4 is 40 points lower. It's the same trending data albeit Vantage 4 is a score based on a tri-merged report.

I haven't heard of a tri-merged Vantage 4 score, but your Vantage 4's and FICO10T's will be different for the same reason that your Vantage 3's and FICO8's will be different: they're different algorithms written by different people, independently of each other. They score the same data, but they score it differently.

Re: FICO 10T vs. Vantage 4

PepsterinBklyn — Fri, 05 Apr 2024 15:28:39 GMT

I'm OK with & I even expect SOME differences between the 2 algorithms BUT 40 points???, NO WAY...... LOL Anyway, from from my lowest 10T of 838 down to 798 made me scratch my head. My real concern is since mortgage scoring for many using the 10T\Vantage 4 combination is going to happen via Fannie Mae\Freddie Mac, what's going to happen to people with scores in mid 700's or mid 600's & those similar deficits show up?

Re: FICO 10T vs. Vantage 4

Slabenstein — Fri, 05 Apr 2024 15:58:01 GMT

@PepsterinBklyn wrote:
I'm OK with & I even expect SOME differences between the 2 algorithms BUT 40 points???, NO WAY...... LOL Anyway, from from my lowest 10T of 838 down to 798 made me scratch my head. My real concern is since mortgage scoring for many using the 10T\Vantage 4 combination is going to happen via Fannie Mae\Freddie Mac, what's going to happen to people with scores in mid 700's or mid 600's & those similar deficits show up?

1. Yeah way. Like I said, they're completely different algo's. VS3 and FICO8 can be more than 100 points different for some profiles.

2. What's going to happen is the same as happens now when there's variation among an applicant's FICO 2/4/5 mortgage scores: lowest middle score determines rate. It would just be lowest middle 10T for lenders that opt to use that, and lowest middle VS4 for lenders that opt to use that.

Re: FICO 10T vs. Vantage 4

CYBERSAM — Fri, 05 Apr 2024 16:37:17 GMT

@PepsterinBklyn wrote:
I'm very puzzled . Between my (3) FICO 10T scores, the lowest one is 838. Understanding that Vantage 4 is also trended data, I don't understand why my Vantage 4 is 40 points lower. It's the same trending data albeit Vantage 4 is a score based on a tri-merged report.

FICO vs. FAKO and you asking why??

Because they are classified as FAKO and used for entertainment purposes only!

We have seen many reports of 100 points difference between the scores, including my own! I would not even be concern about what my FAKO scores are, regardless of models...

Re: FICO 10T vs. Vantage 4

PepsterinBklyn — Fri, 05 Apr 2024 16:57:54 GMT

If Vantage 4 is now "OFFICIALLY" part of the mortgage evaluation process..... IT'S NOT FAKO ANYMORE.

Re: FICO 10T vs. Vantage 4

Slabenstein — Fri, 05 Apr 2024 17:16:35 GMT

@PepsterinBklyn wrote:
If Vantage 4 is now "OFFICIALLY" part of the mortgage evaluation process..... IT'S NOT FAKO ANYMORE.

Well, it's not FAKO once the transition to the new scores happens. From what I see poking around online, it might be Q4 of this year?

I also see that I was mistaken about what the transition is going to entail. From what I can find, it looks like that, once it happens, lenders will no longer be able to use the FICO 2/4/5 tri-merge for conforming mortgages. Instead, lenders will be required to use both FICO 10T and Vantage 4, and to use a bi-merge of two bureaus rather than a tri-merge of three. I didn't find anything that said how exactly the four scores this would produce would be used to determine rate.

Re: FICO 10T vs. Vantage 4

CYBERSAM — Fri, 05 Apr 2024 21:44:13 GMT

@Slabenstein wrote:
@PepsterinBklyn wrote:
If Vantage 4 is now "OFFICIALLY" part of the mortgage evaluation process..... IT'S NOT FAKO ANYMORE.
Well, it's not FAKO once the transition to the new scores happens. From what I see poking around online, it might be Q4 of this year?

I also see that I was mistaken about what the transition is going to entail. From what I can find, it looks like that, once it happens, lenders will no longer be able to use the FICO 2/4/5 tri-merge for conforming mortgages. Instead, lenders will be required to use both FICO 10T and Vantage 4, and to use a bi-merge of two bureaus rather than a tri-merge of three. I didn't find anything that said how exactly the four scores this would produce would be used to determine rate.

Till that happens still remains to be FAKO. I just don't see how lenders would base ALL of their decisions using unproven highly volatile scoring system.

Re: FICO 10T vs. Vantage 4

Thomas_Thumb — Sat, 06 Apr 2024 01:21:50 GMT

@Horseshoez wrote:
@PepsterinBklyn wrote:
I'm very puzzled . Between my (3) FICO 10T scores, the lowest one is 838. Understanding that Vantage 4 is also trended data, I don't understand why my Vantage 4 is 40 points lower. It's the same trending data albeit Vantage 4 is a score based on a tri-merged report.
The underlying data may well be the same, however, the scoring models are different; odds are pretty good they will never totally line up.

^ True. The models are different and therefore should never line up scorewise for all profiles. If they did, they would be the same model and it would be redundant to have both.

The now ancient Fico models used for mortgages are vastly different than the newer Fico models. I could drop my EQ Fico score 5 (Fico 04 model) from 809 to 764 while maintaining EQ Fico 8 and EQ Fico 9 at 850. By comparison my EQ VS3 would drop from 835 to 830. So, I saw a much greater variation among the Fico models than between VS3 and the newer Fico models.

FWIW - VantageScore LLC is owned by our three favorite CBs - EQ, TU and EX.

I suspect VS4 and Fico 10T will be evaluated as a trimerge for each algorithm - middle score used and then compared VS to Fico. My understanding is 2025 will be the launch year.

Wow 2025! I remember Y2K, no cell phones, no internet, no PCs or word processors, no hand held calculators, film only based video, tape based data storage media, typewriters, leaded gasoline, free cigarettes on airlines, no modern copy machines, no color TV, professional sports athletes making ordinary incomes, cars without a/c or power steering and the dawn of: commercial passenger jet air service, satellites in orbit and manned space flight.

Re: FICO 10T vs. Vantage 4

Horseshoez — Sat, 06 Apr 2024 01:27:07 GMT

@Thomas_Thumb wrote:
Wow 2025! I remember Y2K, no cell phones, no internet, no PCs or word processors, no hand held calculators, film only based video, tape based data storage media, typewriters, leaded gasoline, free cigarettes on airlines, no modern copy machines, no color TV, professional sports athletes making ordinary incomes, cars without a/c or power steering and the dawn of: commercial passenger jet air service, satellites in orbit and manned space flight.

Yup, I remember all those things, plus a few things I'd rather forget, and without going into too much detail, outhouses...

Re: FICO 10T vs. Vantage 4

FlaDude — Sat, 06 Apr 2024 14:41:17 GMT

So if Vantage 4 scrores are actually going to be important at some point, how do you go about getting them? I know SYNC/Lowes shows TU Vantage 4, but I'm not sure how to see the other two CBs. CK, Wallethub, and Nerdwallet still show Vantage 3 and the various paid services all seem to just show FICO scores.

Re: FICO 10T vs. Vantage 4

PepsterinBklyn — Sat, 06 Apr 2024 15:55:06 GMT

It's been very slow to become available for most people which is sad. SOME Synchrony cards offer it, but I avoid Synschrony because of their card closing reputuation. Some credit unions are now also offering it incuding mines (Jovia), but Jovia only does it once per quarter.

Re: FICO 10T vs. Vantage 4

PepsterinBklyn — Sat, 06 Apr 2024 16:05:02 GMT

By the way.... As far as I've been able to determine, THERE'S ACTUALLY ONLY ONE, NOT THREE Vantage 4 score. The reports from all 3 bureaus get merged BUT JUST THAT ONE SCORE is produced. That's why when one is seen, it always says Vantage 4 TU. Jovia has confirmed this with me via a chat conversation.

Re: FICO 10T vs. Vantage 4

Thomas_Thumb — Sat, 06 Apr 2024 18:30:16 GMT

That's bad. Then you can't compare credit reports amongst the 3 CBs to analyze impact of file differences on score. I know TU took the lead on promoting VantageScore but, all 3 CBs are joint owners.

Good strategy by CBs to make information more opaque to consumers. No whining to CBs that my score from your CB is low.

Below is a table showing scoring category differences between VS3 and VS4. VantageScore 4.0 has reduced the weight given in $$ balance so it is now more like Fico in that regard. As we know, unlike VS, Fico does not look atavailable credit in $$ terms. VS4 increased weight associated with new credit. It also adds some form of trending as does Fico 10T.

Attribute Category	VS 3.0	VS 4.0
Payment History	40%	41%
Age and Mix of Credit	21%	20%
Credit Utilization	20%	20%
New Credit	5%	11%
Balance	11%	6%
Available Credit	3%	2%

Re: FICO 10T vs. Vantage 4

PepsterinBklyn — Sat, 06 Apr 2024 19:43:15 GMT

Any action we take to add any credit at all may whack us really hard in VS4. I'm an AZEO person with 7 open cards. My normal reporting isn't even a percentage. It's LITERALLY a dollar amount ($5).... Just as long as that number is more than zero..... LOL I applied for a Cap One card last year which I did get. Of course Cap One dings all 3 bureaus..... BUT THAT'S THE ONLY INQUIRY on all 3 reports. My VS4 goes from 811 to 783 off the inquiry & then after the card reports, it goes down to 775. It took 9 months just to get back to 805.

Re: FICO 10T vs. Vantage 4

FlaDude — Sat, 06 Apr 2024 20:34:14 GMT

@Thomas_Thumb wrote:

Attribute Category VS 3.0 VS 4.0
Payment History 40% 41%
Age and Mix of Credit 21% 20%
Credit Utilization 20% 20%
New Credit 5% 11%
Balance 11% 6%
Available Credit 3% 2%

Thanks for the chart. Lowes showed this for scoring factors which says that payment history is less important balances, credit mix, and aging. That seemed very unlikely to me, your chart appears much more plausible.

Re: FICO 10T vs. Vantage 4

Thomas_Thumb — Sun, 07 Apr 2024 00:22:11 GMT

You are welcome.

The VS table is the real deal - which reminds me of Evander Holyfield.

Re: FICO 10T vs. Vantage 4

FicoMike0 — Sun, 07 Apr 2024 00:55:26 GMT

great info! So, I can get a vs4 from a Lowe's card? I wonder, can I use the shopping cart trick to get one without a hp? Gee, I shop at home depot, menards and ace hw, but not lowes. So now I have to go to a store I don't shop at, to get a card I don't want, to get a score I don't really care much about. I think I need a wack on the head for thinking about this.