topic Re: Scorecard change from young to mature? in Understanding FICO® Scoring

Scorecard change from young to mature?

Snook_on_the_Line — Mon, 29 Apr 2024 14:09:00 GMT

So I made the move to a clean scorecard this month. My only remaining baddie was EE'd. this brought a 78 point jump in my fico 8s. Into the 750s 🤑

my current AAoA is 2.3 years

the question is at what point do you move from a 'new' or 'young' scorecard to a 'mature' scorecard?

I thought I read here somewhere that it was at an AAoA of three years, with no new accounts. Or was it five years AAoA?

im trying figure out when to app for some new cards.

if it's three years then I'll wait till my AAoA is at 2 years 11 months. That way, by my logic at least, I'll have the best scores possible on the Young scorecard

and I'll be apping before taking a hit from moving from the tip top of a young scorecard to the bottom of a Mature scorecard

thats my understanding at least

any thoughts and insight are appreciated

Re: Scorecard change from young to mature?

TheKid2 — Mon, 29 Apr 2024 18:01:37 GMT

@Snook_on_the_Line wrote:
So I made the move to a clean scorecard this month. My only remaining baddie was EE'd. this brought a 78 point jump in my fico 8s. Into the 750s 🤑

my current AAoA is 2.3 years

the question is at what point do you move from a 'new' or 'young' scorecard to a 'mature' scorecard?

I thought I read here somewhere that it was at an AAoA of three years, with no new accounts. Or was it five years AAoA?

im trying figure out when to app for some new cards.

if it's three years then I'll wait till my AAoA is at 2 years 11 months. That way, by my logic at least, I'll have the best scores possible on the Young scorecard
and I'll be apping before taking a hit from moving from the tip top of a young scorecard to the bottom of a Mature scorecard

thats my understanding at least
any thoughts and insight are appreciated

I have seen that AAoA at 6 years is the big breakpoint for me. I've read that there are other breakpoints along the way (maybe 2 years, maybe 4 years). It is a difficult thing to nail down. I do not believe there is a scorecard segmentation based solely on AAoA, for "mature".

If you search the forums you will find lots of reading on this.

Re: Scorecard change from young to mature?

SouthJamaica — Mon, 29 Apr 2024 18:54:13 GMT

@TheKid2 wrote:
@Snook_on_the_Line wrote:
So I made the move to a clean scorecard this month. My only remaining baddie was EE'd. this brought a 78 point jump in my fico 8s. Into the 750s 🤑

my current AAoA is 2.3 years

the question is at what point do you move from a 'new' or 'young' scorecard to a 'mature' scorecard?

I thought I read here somewhere that it was at an AAoA of three years, with no new accounts. Or was it five years AAoA?

im trying figure out when to app for some new cards.

if it's three years then I'll wait till my AAoA is at 2 years 11 months. That way, by my logic at least, I'll have the best scores possible on the Young scorecard
and I'll be apping before taking a hit from moving from the tip top of a young scorecard to the bottom of a Mature scorecard

thats my understanding at least
any thoughts and insight are appreciated
I have seen that AAoA at 6 years is the big breakpoint for me. I've read that there are other breakpoints along the way (maybe 2 years, maybe 4 years). It is a difficult thing to nail down. I do not believe there is a scorecard segmentation based solely on AAoA, for "mature".

If you search the forums you will find lots of reading on this.

I agree with @TheKid2 I too do not believe AAoA is a scorecard segment indicator.

Neither do I think 3 years is a big threshold.

@Thomas_Thumb once posted that the first important thresholds in AAoA were 2 years and 5 years

Re: Scorecard change from young to mature?

Thomas_Thumb — Mon, 29 Apr 2024 19:09:15 GMT

AAoA is not a scorecard segmentation factor. AoOA and AoYA are segmentation factors along with file thickness for Fico 8. The AoOA segmentation value remains debateable. Some believe it is 3 years. Others think is is longer, say 8 years. AoYA is 12 months.

AAoA can impact score. The highest threshold of AAoA for enhancing score is believed to be 7.5 years.

Re: Scorecard change from young to mature?

FicoMike0 — Tue, 30 Apr 2024 03:19:26 GMT

@Thomas_Thumb I may have data on the AoOA segmentation. My situation is, I'm recovering from being credit retired. 18 months ago, I was unscorable. My oldest open account is 17 months. My fico8 is being propped up by old closed accounts. Three, total. One only appears on equifax, it's 20 years. The others are 8 years. My eq score is highest. I don't see any other big differences. I'll get the exact numbers and post.

All of those accounts are going to reach the 10 year point in less than 2 years. I'm expecting a score drop then. That's the main reason I went crazy and opened a ssl. I felt the 30-40 points would cover the drop. I'm also planning to go in the garden 12 months out. Then, my AoYA will turn 12 months and I'll be 0/12 on hps.

I'm old, I already own house, car, furniture, appliances, New roof and ac. I really have no good reason to care what my score is. It's become a hobby I guess.

Re: Scorecard change from young to mature?

Thomas_Thumb — Tue, 30 Apr 2024 09:26:10 GMT

Not a bad hobby to have. It's cheap

Thanks for the data.

Comparing scores between CRAs with different file data is used a lot.

However, it can be misleading. CRAs score certain factors differently from each other. As a result, scores can vary 20-30 point among the CRAs even when files are identical.

Nailing down age related thresholds is particularly tricky. Most difficult is the AoOA segmentation threshold. That threshold is typically experienced once only. The exception being the rare file where all well aged accounts are closed and drop off a report. At best years go by before repeatability can be tested.

Ideally we observe a data point crossing a suspected threshold. Then see an associated change in reason codes and scores. Better yet is to see the same changes in reason codes across multiple CRAs.

Unlike scoring attributes, Scorecard segmentation factors are not customized by each CRAs. If files are the same, a scorecard reassignment would happen on all 3 CRAs at once and reason codes would change together. We see this going from a dirty to a clean scorecard. There is a wholesale change in the displayed reason code list along with the expected score boost.

Some clean => clean scorecard changes may not be indicated by an obvious score change. The not established to established credit segmentation is a case in point. The best/only tell may be a change in reason codes.

Side note: There is no AoOA related segmentation among dirty scorecards.

Re: Scorecard change from young to mature?

Anonymalous — Tue, 30 Apr 2024 12:46:01 GMT

@Thomas_Thumb wrote:
AAoA is not a scorecard segmentation factor. AoOA and AoYA are segmentation factors along with file thickness for Fico 8. The AoOA segmentation value remains debateable. Some believe it is 3 years. Others think is is longer, say 8 years. AoYA is 12 months.

AAoA can impact score. The highest threshold of AAoA for enhancing score is believed to be 7.5 years.

My AoOA is hitting 3 years next month. Anything in particular to watch?

Re: Scorecard change from young to mature?

Snook_on_the_Line — Tue, 30 Apr 2024 13:04:08 GMT

@Thomas_Thumb wrote:
Not a bad hobby to have. It's cheap

Thanks for the data.
Comparing scores between CRAs with different file data is used a lot.

However, it can be misleading. CRAs score certain factors differently from each other. As a result, scores can vary 20-30 point among the CRAs even when files are identical.

Nailing down age related thresholds is particularly tricky. Most difficult is the AoOA segmentation threshold. That threshold is typically experienced once only. The exception being the rare file where all well aged accounts are closed and drop off a report. At best years go by before repeatability can be tested.

Ideally we observe a data point crossing a suspected threshold. Then see an associated change in reason codes and scores. Better yet is to see the same changes in reason codes across multiple CRAs.

Unlike scoring attributes, Scorecard segmentation factors are not customized by each CRAs. If files are the same, a scorecard reassignment would happen on all 3 CRAs at once and reason codes would change together. We see this going from a dirty to a clean scorecard. There is a wholesale change in the displayed reason code list along with the expected score boost.

Some clean => clean scorecard changes may not be indicated by an obvious score change. The not established to established credit segmentation is a case in point. The best/only tell may be a change in reason codes.

Side note: There is no AoOA related segmentation among dirty scorecards.

That is why I have no idea what is going to happen and when. I've always had a dirty scorecard until now👍🏻

Re: Scorecard change from young to mature?

Thomas_Thumb — Tue, 30 Apr 2024 15:32:25 GMT

@Anonymalous wrote:
@Thomas_Thumb wrote:
AAoA is not a scorecard segmentation factor. AoOA and AoYA are segmentation factors along with file thickness for Fico 8. The AoOA segmentation value remains debateable. Some believe it is 3 years. Others think is is longer, say 8 years. AoYA is 12 months.

AAoA can impact score. The highest threshold of AAoA for enhancing score is believed to be 7.5 years.
My AoOA is hitting 3 years next month. Anything in particular to watch?

There are a few things you can do to help isolate the age effect:

Avoid major changes to your accounts on file for the month prior and month after the event.

- No new accounts, no inquiries and no disputes during this time.

- No closing of any accounts and no large changes in loan B/L ratios.

- Try to maintain aggregate utilization at a similar level before/after the age boundry is crossed. Preferrably both in the 2% to 5% range or 6% to 9% range. However, anywhere in the 1% to 9% range should suffice.

- Utilizations on all cards with balances under 29%. Try to keep number of cards with balances the same within +\- 1. Avoid the "all zero" penalty.

It would be great if you can pull all 3 Fico 8 scores at the same time when collecting before/after data. The reports need to provide reason statements about factors negatively impacting your score. The list should ideally include 4 items per CRA.

It is important to have a full set of data for the.month before the 3 year mark. Then a second data set the month of and a 3rd set the month after for good measure. Do you subscribe to any Fico score monitoring plans that pull all 3 CBs?

As for what to look for:

1. Many reports list 4 negative reasons in some type of rank order. Look for a change in rank order as well as some statements dropping off and being replaced.

- If your file is otherwise stable you should see changes in the code list the month 3 years is reached and shows as such on your report. However, no additional change the month after.

- Scores may change as well and they should be captured. How they change may depend on the specific values of scoring attributes in your file.

For example, the weight given to card utilization may vary by scorecard assignment. Let's say a mature/established scorecard is not as concerned with individual card UT.

Case 1 - AG utilization is 8% with highest card UT at 54%.

Case 2- AG utilization is 6% with highest card at 27%.

Now file ages to 3 years and utilization levels remain unchanged. In case 1 score might go up because penalty for high card UT has been reduced. Furthermore, in case 1 a reason statement about high utilization on revolving accounts may drop to a lower rank at the 3 year mark - assuming the list is rank order. In case 2 there may be no score change because there was no penalty in play to begin with.

Re: Scorecard change from young to mature?

SouthJamaica — Tue, 30 Apr 2024 19:14:20 GMT

@Thomas_Thumb wrote:...... The highest threshold of AAoA for enhancing score is believed to be 7.5 years.

And any idea what typically happens at 7.5 years? I'm approaching that one tomorrow, in 2 of my 3 bureaus.

Unfortunately I'm also approaching 12 months AoYA tomorrow, so the results will be murky.

Re: Scorecard change from young to mature?

Thomas_Thumb — Tue, 30 Apr 2024 21:46:34 GMT

@SouthJamaica wrote:
@Thomas_Thumb wrote:...... The highest threshold of AAoA for enhancing score is believed to be 7.5 years.
And any idea what typically happens at 7.5 years? I'm approaching that one tomorrow, in 2 of my 3 bureaus.

Unfortunately I'm also approaching 12 months AoYA tomorrow, so the results will be murky.

I think AAoA at 7.5 years is a minor event as are some other AAoA thresholds. The AoYA 12 months is a major event that would completely overshadow AAoA. So, in addition to the typical 15-25 point score boost for AoYA you should see a couple changes in reason statements for moving off the new accounts scorecard.

I would be interested in seeing what happens. Do you get reports where there is a rank order to reason statements? As I recall, you at one time received updates and reports from both Experian and Fico.

Is AoYA reaching 12 months an event that triggers a data pull and rescore? Are there daily F8 updates as part of monitoring? I don't use monitoring services but, I suspect there could be some lag time differences among the CRAs and between Fico and Experian services.

Re: Scorecard change from young to mature?

Anonymalous — Wed, 01 May 2024 02:52:14 GMT

@Thomas_Thumb wrote:
@Anonymalous wrote:
@@Thomas_Thum wrote:
AAoA is not a scorecard segmentation factor. AoOA and AoYA are segmentation factors along with file thickness for Fico 8. The AoOA segmentation value remains debateable. Some believe it is 3 years. Others think is is longer, say 8 years. AoYA is 12 months.

AAoA can impact score. The highest threshold of AAoA for enhancing score is believed to be 7.5 years.
My AoOA is hitting 3 years next month. Anything in particular to watch?
There are a few things you can do to help isolate the age effect:
Avoid major changes to your accounts on file for the month prior and month after the event.
- No new accounts, no inquiries and no disputes during this time.
- No closing of any accounts and no large changes in loan B/L ratios.
- Try to maintain aggregate utilization at a similar level before/after the age boundry is crossed. Preferrably both in the 2% to 5% range or 6% to 9% range. However, anywhere in the 1% to 9% range should suffice.
- Utilizations on all cards with balances under 29%. Try to keep number of cards with balances the same within +\- 1. Avoid the "all zero" penalty.

It would be great if you can pull all 3 Fico 8 scores at the same time when collecting before/after data. The reports need to provide reason statements about factors negatively impacting your score. The list should ideally include 4 items per CRA.

It is important to have a full set of data for the.month before the 3 year mark. Then a second data set the month of and a 3rd set the month after for good measure. Do you subscribe to any Fico score monitoring plans that pull all 3 CBs?

As for what to look for:
1. Many reports list 4 negative reasons in some type of rank order. Look for a change in rank order as well as some statements dropping off and being replaced.
- If your file is otherwise stable you should see changes in the code list the month 3 years is reached and shows as such on your report. However, no additional change the month after.
- Scores may change as well and they should be captured. How they change may depend on the specific values of scoring attributes in your file.

For example, the weight given to card utilization may vary by scorecard assignment. Let's say a mature/established scorecard is not as concerned with individual card UT.

Case 1 - AG utilization is 8% with highest card UT at 54%.
Case 2- AG utilization is 6% with highest card at 27%.

Now file ages to 3 years and utilization levels remain unchanged. In case 1 score might go up because penalty for high card UT has been reduced. Furthermore, in case 1 a reason statement about high utilization on revolving accounts may drop to a lower rank at the 3 year mark - assuming the list is rank order. In case 2 there may be no score change because there was no penalty in play to begin with.

My oldest card hits 3 years on the 7th. I have a fairly simple file: 6 credit cards, and nothing else. No other types of revolving credit, and no installment loans like a mortgage/car loan/BNPL. No derogatories of any kind. No new tradelines or inquiries since January.

I keep utilization low, though I did have a relatively high charge this month (taxes). 21% on one card, which increased overall utilization to 5%.

No, I don't subscribe to any 3-bureau credit score services, but I have access to various EQ and EX scores (no TU). My scores have been very stable since February. The ranges below are the variations in the score since the start of February, with the number in parens being the drop from the 21% utilization -- which didn't affect EX 8 at all, but EQ 8 dropped 3 points, and EQ 9 dropped 7 points.

EQ 8 (Experian) 764-765 (764)

EQ Bankcard 8 (Citi) 762-763

EQ 9 (NFCU) 781 (774)

EX 8 (MyFICO) 762-763 (760)

EX Bankcard 9 (FNBO) 774-775

Negative factors from MyFICO EQ credit report last week:

You have a short credit history (2 yr 11 mo)

Negative factors from Experian as of today:

Short account history

I'll have to dig through my other reports to see if I can find comparable info. I just pulled my reports from ACR as well, just in case (Experian will be delayed a week or so, because they always make me mail in a request).

Re: Scorecard change from young to mature?

Thomas_Thumb — Wed, 01 May 2024 03:26:17 GMT

Thanks for the info. Looking forward to an update after the 3 year mark is reached. It's very very unfortunate your reports list only one reason statement. There are atleast 8-12 negatives impacting your score.

When 4 different ones are listed, the way they shuffle around and get replaced provides valuable insight. Not much to work with when it's a one and done summary.

Re: Scorecard change from young to mature?

SouthJamaica — Wed, 01 May 2024 04:16:05 GMT

@Thomas_Thumb wrote:
@SouthJamaica wrote:
@Thomas_Thumb wrote:...... The highest threshold of AAoA for enhancing score is believed to be 7.5 years.
And any idea what typically happens at 7.5 years? I'm approaching that one tomorrow, in 2 of my 3 bureaus.

Unfortunately I'm also approaching 12 months AoYA tomorrow, so the results will be murky.
I think AAoA at 7.5 years is a minor event as are some other AAoA thresholds. The AoYA 12 months is a major event that would completely overshadow AAoA. So, in addition to the typical 15-25 point score boost for AoYA you should see a couple changes in reason statements for moving off the new accounts scorecard.

I would be interested in seeing what happens. Do you get reports where there is a rank order to reason statements? As I recall, you at one time received updates and reports from both Experian and Fico.

Is AoYA reaching 12 months an event that triggers a data pull and rescore? Are there daily F8 updates as part of monitoring? I don't use monitoring services but, I suspect there could be some lag time differences among the CRAs and between Fico and Experian services.

In view of these upcoming events, I'm planning to pull my 3-bureau report tomorrow. If anything interesting happens I will of course report. If you want me to compare anything to my April 5th report, just ask away and I'll try to accommodate. I'm going to be tied up tomorrow IRL, so there may be a 1-day delay in my getting back to you with the answers.

I also subscribe to an experian.com service, which is generally more informative since it updates daily, and even includes -- when EX FICO 8 changes -- a statement on "what's changed".

But in this case, since the 2 big changes are definitely happening on the first of the month, the MyFICO 3-bureau report should tell me something.

So far, each time I've crossed the 12-month AoYA rubicon, it's meant 26 points to my EX FICO 8. I've never crossed the 7 1/2 year AAoA mark.

And....

- yes the reports give an order of reason codes

- MyFICO doesn't 'trigger a data pull and rescore' but my full 3-bureau report should, and as mentioned experian pulls the data and rescores every day

- the MyFICO alerts aren't daily, and aren't in real time, notwithstanding that there are many people here who think they are both; there is no way of telling from them when a data change occurred or when the score changed, or whether the score change was or was not connected to the data change

- the experian site does not have lag time; the date the data changes, if it's enough to move the score, the score changes too

- MyFICO alerts often have lots of lag time, but a pull of the report is a complete soft pull, with no lag time; I do not rely on the alerts for anything

Re: Scorecard change from young to mature?

Anonymalous — Wed, 01 May 2024 04:11:16 GMT

If it helps, I have positive factors listed.

Experian:

These are the most impactful factors affecting your FICO® Score.

Short account history HURTING
No missed payments HELPING
Not seeking credit HELPING
Recent credit card usage HELPING
Many accounts paid on time HELPING

MyFICO:

Factors

The top positive and negative factors that affected your FICO® Score.

positive factor You have no missed payments on your credit accounts.
positive factor You've limited the use of your available revolving credit.
positive factor You've shown recent use of credit cards and/or bank-issued open-ended accounts.
positive factor You have a sufficient number of accounts that are currently paid as agreed.
negative factor You have a short credit history.

Re: Scorecard change from young to mature?

Thomas_Thumb — Wed, 01 May 2024 04:58:12 GMT

Positive factors are feel good fluff. No insight to be gained there.

Re: Scorecard change from young to mature?

masscredit — Fri, 03 May 2024 03:36:26 GMT

I started my rebuild 2 years ago tomorrow. Three of my cards are from that period so they are 2 years old this month. My EQ08 score went up three points today. No other account changes so I'm wondering if those accounts aging to two years has anything to do with it?