topic Re: Opt Out Failure in General Credit Topics

Opt Out Failure

Booner72 — Wed, 04 Jan 2012 01:37:35 GMT

My brother opted out a few months back but today a Home Depot offer came in the mail for him.

How do you think this happened? He opted out again online in case it didnt take.

This is pretty important bc he is hiding from a CA about a car repo. Also on Credit Karma an old Wicks HSBC good standing account started reporting this month that was paid off back in 2003 or so. Why would it do that?

Re: Opt Out Failure

RobertEG — Wed, 04 Jan 2012 01:50:16 GMT

The CRA blew it, unless the party obtained the name and address prior to the receipt by the CRA of the request to be excluded from lists provided to those with which he has no established business, credit, or pending initiation of credit.

I am not sure how opting out will shield him from CR access by a legitimate debt collector. If they have permissible purpose, then the opt out restriction would not apply to their permissible access of his full CR. It only applies to those that do not otherwise have a permissible purpose under section 604.

Re: Opt Out Failure

pizzadude — Wed, 04 Jan 2012 01:53:38 GMT

Has he shopped at homie depot recently ? It is entirely possible that HD, like many retailers, can collect information at the point of sale, without relying on a CRA.

Re: Opt Out Failure

Booner72 — Wed, 04 Jan 2012 03:55:28 GMT

No way did he go to Home Depot. Not his store.

I know that the repo man CA can still come after him, but hoping if he doesnt apply for any credit, change address, use credit etc, the "alerts" that get sent out to CA's by the CRA's won't happen.

ROBERTEG - what do you think about that plan?

Re: Opt Out Failure

MarineVietVet — Wed, 04 Jan 2012 05:40:19 GMT

@Booner72 wrote:
My brother opted out a few months back but today a Home Depot offer came in the mail for him.

How do you think this happened? He opted out again online in case it didnt take.

This is pretty important bc he is hiding from a CA about a car repo. Also on Credit Karma an old Wicks HSBC good standing account started reporting this month that was paid off back in 2003 or so. Why would it do that?

It happens because no system is perfect. I know that is oversimplied but that's what it comes down to. Some things are bound to slip through the cracks.

From a BK years ago to:
EX - 3/11 pulled by lender- 835, EQ - 2/11-816, TU - 2/11-782

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they've made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem".

Re: Opt Out Failure

RobertEG — Wed, 04 Jan 2012 08:20:28 GMT

I am not familiar with the CRAs sending out "alerts.

The FCRA restricts the ability of a CRA to provide credit report information without the consumers consent by requiring that the person requesting the CR to provide a statement of permissible purpose that is authorized under one or more subsections of section 604. Debt collectors use the authority, and have for years, of subsection 604(a)(3)(D) to obtain a consumer's credit report. If the debt collector has sufficient information to identity the consumer, then they can obtain the consumer's full credit report.

Subsection 604(c)(1) authorizes the CRAs to also furnish a credit report with regard to credit transactions not authorized by the consumer, but has two restrictions, one set forth in subsection 604(c)(1)(B), and the other in subsection 604(c)(2). The first provision requires that the requested credit report information mustbe for the purpose of offering "a firm offer of credit or insurance," and the second restriction is that if the CRA grants the request, they are restricted only to providing the consumer's "name and address."

A debt collector does NOT meet condition one, so if they do not claim access under subsection 604(a)(3)(D) based on their clear collection authority, they cannot legally obtain even the consumer's name and address by use of the so-called "promotional offer" provision of subsection 604(c)(1)(B). They are not offering a firm offer of credit.

The CRAs "may furnish a consumer report under the following circumstances (i.e., they have a specific permissible purpose set forth in section 604) and no other." FCRA 604(a). So I dont see how a CRA could be sending out "alerts" regarding information in any consumer file.

They do sell lists authorized under subsection 604(c)(1)(B) to those wishing to send "firm" offers for credit. The "opt-out" provision of section 604(e) provides the consumer the ability to be excluded from such lists.

With all of that verbage aside, a debt collector is not authorized to obtain such "lists," and the CRAs cannot legally sell "alerts" regarding a consumer's credit information for purposes related to debt collection. So I dont see where the asserted CRA practice is coming from. Does anyone have evidence of such a practice?

If the debt collector has sufficient identifying information to request a consumer's credit report, they can get the entire report without resort to any such "lists." With no change in address, I dont see that as being very difficult. I dont see opting out as providing much of a hiding place.

Re: Opt Out Failure

haulingthescoreup — Wed, 04 Jan 2012 14:59:20 GMT

There's often several months' delay before offers dry up completely.

So for instance, maybe Citi/HD bought a list of potential customers via a soft pull with a promo code, and his name was on it. The list comes in a week or two after they ordered it, and it sits on someone's to-do list until they wade through all the other stuff higher up the list, get their holiday shopping done, lose a couple hours of work every day to random office parties, come back from vacation, and finally send out the "pre-approved to apply" offers that Citi loves so much.

How long ago exactly did he opt out?

Re: Opt Out Failure

llecs — Wed, 04 Jan 2012 15:26:53 GMT

I'll throw in that even though DW and I were opted out, we still got offers from Best Buy, Discover, and Amex to name a couple. They'll purchase lists totally unrelated to credit or your credit reports. I noticed in the Amex and Discover offer to DW, they listed her first initial and last name. Nowhere in her CRs is that format listed in the former names section. However, we also had a magazine subscription come in with the same. Somewhere someone purchased a list and it had her info on it. And I don't think her CC offers were pre-approvals. Just fishin' for business.

Re: Opt Out Failure

pizzadude — Wed, 04 Jan 2012 16:45:16 GMT

With regards to CRAs notifiying/send alerts to CAs about consumers ( i.e. you and me ):

This is from experian, I am sure that the other CRAs offer similar services. The consensus is that opt-ing out will remove you from CRA promotional inquiries, but I have no idea if opt-ing out removes you from this type of CRA data mining.

http://www.experian.com/consumer-information/debt-collection.html

Collection TriggersSM When Nonpaying Customers Resurface, be the First to Know

When customers leave an outstanding balance, you need an effective way to determine when to begin working the account again. Collection TriggersSM tracks the account and notifies you of new contact information and changes that indicate financial improvement or ability to pay.

Collection Triggers is ideal for all stages of the recovery process, monitoring the following:

Early-stage delinquencies - accounts for public record, civil action, tradeline and demographic events
Charge-off accounts - key trigger events so that you can segment portfolio strategies
Uncollectible, warehoused and post-judgment accounts - your debtor may have eluded you in the past, but when he or she surfaces, you'll be notified immediately

Features and Benefits

Daily monitoring and delivery of trigger results, with flexible delivery methods and optional triggering categories
Be the first to the door for wallet share; optimize portfolio recovery and increase right-party contacts
No upfront costs to monitor accounts
Backed by Experian's File OneSM database of more than 220 million credit-active consumers

Flexible and Customizable to Meet Your Needs

You decide what accounts to track and define the rules around monitoring
Direct computer-friendly feeds to your system
Multiple methods to activate and deactivate monitoring at any time
Customizable criteria and suppression options
Fifteen score models available with trigger notices

http://www.experian.com/consumer-information/debt-collects.html

Collections Data MigrationSM Monitor Changes in Debtor Behavior

Features and Benefits

Monitor changes in credit scores, balances, credit utilization, contact and location information and relevant consumer behaviors over time to reveal how consumers are performing
Alerts you to changes in a consumer's profile that indicate new contact information and positive credit changes that signal when to resume recovery efforts
Backed by Experian's File OneSM database of more than 220 million credit-active consumers

Flexible and Customizable to Meet Your Unique Needs

Review your entire portfolio for significant migration events on a weekly, monthly or quarterly basis.
Choose up to 150 data elements within the Experian's database, including:
- Customizable monitoring
- Credit scores
- Credit attributes
- Demographic information such as address and telephone numbers
- Employment

Re: Opt Out Failure

Booner72 — Wed, 04 Jan 2012 18:10:27 GMT

@RobertEG wrote:
I am not familiar with the CRAs sending out "alerts.

The FCRA restricts the ability of a CRA to provide credit report information without the consumers consent by requiring that the person requesting the CR to provide a statement of permissible purpose that is authorized under one or more subsections of section 604. Debt collectors use the authority, and have for years, of subsection 604(a)(3)(D) to obtain a consumer's credit report. If the debt collector has sufficient information to identity the consumer, then they can obtain the consumer's full credit report.

Subsection 604(c)(1) authorizes the CRAs to also furnish a credit report with regard to credit transactions not authorized by the consumer, but has two restrictions, one set forth in subsection 604(c)(1)(B), and the other in subsection 604(c)(2). The first provision requires that the requested credit report information mustbe for the purpose of offering "a firm offer of credit or insurance," and the second restriction is that if the CRA grants the request, they are restricted only to providing the consumer's "name and address."

A debt collector does NOT meet condition one, so if they do not claim access under subsection 604(a)(3)(D) based on their clear collection authority, they cannot legally obtain even the consumer's name and address by use of the so-called "promotional offer" provision of subsection 604(c)(1)(B). They are not offering a firm offer of credit.

The CRAs "may furnish a consumer report under the following circumstances (i.e., they have a specific permissible purpose set forth in section 604) and no other." FCRA 604(a). So I dont see how a CRA could be sending out "alerts" regarding information in any consumer file.

They do sell lists authorized under subsection 604(c)(1)(B) to those wishing to send "firm" offers for credit. The "opt-out" provision of section 604(e) provides the consumer the ability to be excluded from such lists.

With all of that verbage aside, a debt collector is not authorized to obtain such "lists," and the CRAs cannot legally sell "alerts" regarding a consumer's credit information for purposes related to debt collection. So I dont see where the asserted CRA practice is coming from. Does anyone have evidence of such a practice?

If the debt collector has sufficient identifying information to request a consumer's credit report, they can get the entire report without resort to any such "lists." With no change in address, I dont see that as being very difficult. I dont see opting out as providing much of a hiding place.

Wow, I'm surprised you haven't read about this. I just now went to the big 3's websites and used the search feature to search"Ability to pay" and it takes you right to the portion of their websites that is designed to get CA's business. Those CA's can sign up to get alerts if we start paying debt, apply for mortgage, etc. IDK if the CA in question HAS to have the PP w/ the consumer to get the alert, but I doubt it. I am under the firm belief that THAT is where those bureaus get some BIG MONEY!!!!

Re: Opt Out Failure

Booner72 — Wed, 04 Jan 2012 18:12:13 GMT

@pizzadude wrote:
With regards to CRAs notifiying/send alerts to CAs about consumers ( i.e. you and me ):

This is from experian, I am sure that the other CRAs offer similar services. The consensus is that opt-ing out will remove you from CRA promotional inquiries, but I have no idea if opt-ing out removes you from this type of CRA data mining.

http://www.experian.com/consumer-information/debt-collection.html
Collection TriggersSM When Nonpaying Customers Resurface, be the First to Know
When customers leave an outstanding balance, you need an effective way to determine when to begin working the account again. Collection TriggersSM tracks the account and notifies you of new contact information and changes that indicate financial improvement or ability to pay.

Collection Triggers is ideal for all stages of the recovery process, monitoring the following:
Early-stage delinquencies - accounts for public record, civil action, tradeline and demographic events
Charge-off accounts - key trigger events so that you can segment portfolio strategies
Uncollectible, warehoused and post-judgment accounts - your debtor may have eluded you in the past, but when he or she surfaces, you'll be notified immediately
Features and Benefits
Daily monitoring and delivery of trigger results, with flexible delivery methods and optional triggering categories
Be the first to the door for wallet share; optimize portfolio recovery and increase right-party contacts
No upfront costs to monitor accounts
Backed by Experian's File OneSM database of more than 220 million credit-active consumers
Flexible and Customizable to Meet Your Needs
You decide what accounts to track and define the rules around monitoring
Direct computer-friendly feeds to your system
Multiple methods to activate and deactivate monitoring at any time
Customizable criteria and suppression options
Fifteen score models available with trigger notices

http://www.experian.com/consumer-information/debt-collects.html

Collections Data MigrationSM Monitor Changes in Debtor Behavior
Features and Benefits
Monitor changes in credit scores, balances, credit utilization, contact and location information and relevant consumer behaviors over time to reveal how consumers are performing
Alerts you to changes in a consumer's profile that indicate new contact information and positive credit changes that signal when to resume recovery efforts
Backed by Experian's File OneSM database of more than 220 million credit-active consumers
Flexible and Customizable to Meet Your Unique Needs
Review your entire portfolio for significant migration events on a weekly, monthly or quarterly basis.
Choose up to 150 data elements within the Experian's database, including:
Customizable monitoring
Credit scores
Credit attributes
Demographic information such as address and telephone numbers
Employment

YES!! This is EXACTLY what I am talking about. I just didn't think I could copy/paste from their websites. !!!!!!! I seriously doubt that the CRA makes sure the CA in question has a PP to have us on their alert list.

THIS IS HOW THE PEOPLE APPLYING FOR MORTGAGES GET THOSE COLLECTION AGENCIES COMING OUT OF THE BLUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Great Post, Pizza!!

Re: Opt Out Failure

Anonymous — Wed, 04 Jan 2012 20:51:09 GMT

And so then, opting out, and/or freezing your credit files does no good whatsoever --- is that what I am reading?

Re: Opt Out Failure

RobertEG — Wed, 04 Jan 2012 22:41:13 GMT

Great post, and great info.

I still assert that any information coming from a CRA MUST first have a certification of permissible purpose submitted to the CRA.

FCRA 604(f)(2) requires that any person making a request for a consumer credit report, which includes promotional requests for name and address under section 604(c), MUST provide the CRA with a certification of a permissible purpose. Section 607(a) defines the compliance procedure to be used. The furnishing of any consumer report requires that the requestor certify a permissible purpose under one or more the subsections of section 604. They must certify the permissible purpose, and certify that the information "will be used for no other purpose." It states that the CRA must make reasonable effort to verify the uses certified by the requestor.

I would presume that since the listed services are being offered to debt collectors, they have a legitimate permissible purpose. I think that is implied in the advertising.

However, if such services are being offered without first obtaining a certification of permissilbe purpose from the requestor, then it would, in my opinion, be a violation of sections 604(f)(2) and 607(a).

It would be interesting if someone who feels that a party has been provided information by a CRA without their first obtaining a certification of permissible purpose or for purposes other than the one certified pursued the matter by requring the CRA to produce the certification upon which they furnished the CR information.

Any consumer is entitled to receive any information in their credit file by submitting to the CRA a request under FCRA 609(a)(1) and (2). It costs $11.00, but it might be interesting to see how the CRAs are covering their certification requirement.

Re: Opt Out Failure

Booner72 — Thu, 05 Jan 2012 00:47:48 GMT

Yes, this is a wonderful discussion.

But, Robert, you have far more faith than I. I would bet my new house that there are CA's out there getting these "triggers" on people's profile that they have no business getting.

I see the CRA's as snakes in the grass. EQ and EX are refusing to delete collection accounts that I have proven beyond a reasonable doubt should not be on my reports. What can I do about it but go to small claims and lose? How can you sue a CRA??

Re: Opt Out Failure

LS2982 — Thu, 05 Jan 2012 00:59:46 GMT

@Booner72 wrote:
My brother opted out a few months back but today a Home Depot offer came in the mail for him.

How do you think this happened? He opted out again online in case it didnt take.

This is pretty important bc he is hiding from a CA about a car repo. Also on Credit Karma an old Wicks HSBC good standing account started reporting this month that was paid off back in 2003 or so. Why would it do that?

Did he permanently opt out??

Re: Opt Out Failure

Revelate — Thu, 05 Jan 2012 01:50:00 GMT

Robert et al,

By definition don't the CA's (assuming they purchased the debt from an OC) have a right to that information legally as you've already given consent? Certainly in a lender's case, they have the right to do soft pulls at any time and that's effectively codified I believe in pretty much all of their loan agreements. Does that right translate to the CA when the outstanding loan is sold to them?

I'm almost assured it translates on bundled mortgages, would it not for other types of loans similarly?

I'm not entirely certain it matters too much anyway, address data is such a fungable thing for the CRAs: I've lived in the same place for the last six years, and one CRA has the correct address (albeit recently with my activity I suspect), another still has an address from seven years ago, and another has an address from 13 years ago listed as "current"... and I've moved five times to different states since that one. Strangely the addresses reported are backwards from what I'd expect: EX (west coast where I live) is the 13 year one, TU (midwest where I have lived) is the six year old one, and EQ with their best resolution being on the east coast is the correct one.

Re: Opt Out Failure

Booner72 — Thu, 05 Jan 2012 04:08:44 GMT

@LS2982 wrote:
@Booner72 wrote:
My brother opted out a few months back but today a Home Depot offer came in the mail for him.

How do you think this happened? He opted out again online in case it didnt take.

This is pretty important bc he is hiding from a CA about a car repo. Also on Credit Karma an old Wicks HSBC good standing account started reporting this month that was paid off back in 2003 or so. Why would it do that?
Did he permanently opt out??

Online 5 year. Did it May....June at the latest.

Re: Opt Out Failure

Anonymous — Thu, 05 Jan 2012 04:45:52 GMT

@Booner72 wrote:
I would bet my new house that there are CA's out there getting these "triggers" on people's profile that they have no business getting.

I see the CRA's as snakes in the grass.

+1
All I know is, when we recently got back into the credit world, this past September, after living on the cash system for too many years, we started getting all kinds of letters from collection agencies for debts that neither my husband nor I ever incurred. I don't know whose debts they were, but they were NOT ours. Those collection agencies got our name and address from "somewhere" and, I believe you are correct Booner regarding their getting triggers from the CRAs that they have no business getting. They (the CAs) certainly do not care if the info (triggers) they're buying from the CRAs is "accurate." And, obviously, the CRAs could care less if the information they are reporting is "accurate" as is evident from Booner's testimony of having several things on her CRs that do not belong to her that the CRAs refuse to delete. YET, creditors, CRAs, and CAs ALL boast loud and long about reporting accurate information.

There are more than a few snakes in the grass!!! I believe they are in serious collusion with each other.

Re: Opt Out Failure

RobertEG — Thu, 05 Jan 2012 23:04:04 GMT

Debt collectors dont rely upon a right of transfer of authority from your prior relationship with the OC. They rely upon the provision of FCRA 604(a)(1)(3)(A), which gives permissible pull authority based on their collection of the debt.

No, I dont assume the CRAs always play by the book. All I am saying is that the FCRA says what the rules are, and gives the consumer the right to any information in their credit file, and thus the ability to view the information required to determine if they have violated the rules. It is, I presume, one reason why congress gave the consumer the express right, under section 609(a)(1) and (2), to obtain both any information reported to a CRA, as well as the name of the party who reported.

If the CRAs are releasing consumer information without a permissible purpose, they can be compelled to provide the statement of permissible purpose that they relied upon.