topic Re: How are programming errors(bugs) handled? in General Credit Topics

How are programming errors(bugs) handled?

Anonymous — Fri, 06 Jul 2007 01:06:16 GMT

I have to make an assumption that the FICO scores are computer generated. If the assumption is valid I will continue otherwise please please ignore this thread.

If in fact they are the programs that calculate the scores must have errors in them. This is a fact of life. If you don't believe this please ignore the rest.

The original programs were written a long time ago. In the 1970's if I'm not mistaken.

Now for the question.

When a bug is discovered in these programs and a fix is put in to correct the problem does Fair Isaac a) acknowledge that there was a problem? b) advise the clients who paid for their reports prior to the discovery their scores maybe wrong c) advise any lenders who requested good data and received erroneous scores that in fact they were wrong. And that some of the people who were denied credit should not have been. And last does Fair Isaac feel they have a responsibility to do so? Maybe not a legal one but a moral and ethical one.

Please don't start calling me names or questioning my morals or my education or any other little inside jokes you people have (you know if I'm talking about you).

It does not obscure the fact that the question is not being answered.

BTW My FICO score is 790. I have no axe to grind.

Re: How are programming errors(bugs) handled?

Anonymous — Fri, 06 Jul 2007 01:14:39 GMT

Just to clarify, I have stated it is okay to ask these questions as long as everyone stays calm.

I do believe people want to know what sort of bugs might be an issue, though. It might be good to clarify if you have noticed these bugs.

I will be watching this thread. If it takes any turns in the wrong direction, it will be locked, and I will ask that Bob does not bring up this subject again.

Message Edited by Raine on 07-05-2007 06:14 PM

Re: How are programming errors(bugs) handled?

Anonymous — Fri, 06 Jul 2007 01:15:50 GMT

bob, your assumption is not valid. computers do not generate the fico scores. when you pull your scores, an individual fico employee hand-scores your reports. it is kind of like one of those scan-tron forms that some college professors use, but no scan-tron sensor machine. the scan-tron scoring sheet is then forwarded to the next department, where a different employee adds up the points that the first employee gave to you. finally, a third employee manually enters your score into the system and it shows up on your screen. it is a very involved process, and was devised to eliminate computer errors.

posterbob wrote:
I have to make an assumption that the FICO scores are computer generated. If the assumption is valid I will continue otherwise please please ignore this thread.
If in fact they are the programs that calculate the scores must have errors in them. This is a fact of life. If you don't believe this please ignore the rest.
The original programs were written a long time ago. In the 1970's if I'm not mistaken.
Now for the question.
When a bug is discovered in these programs and a fix is put in to correct the problem does Fair Isaac a) acknowledge that there was a problem? b) advise the clients who paid for their reports prior to the discovery their scores maybe wrong c) advise any lenders who requested good data and received erroneous scores that in fact they were wrong. And that some of the people who were denied credit should not have been. And last does Fair Isaac feel they have a responsibility to do so? Maybe not a legal one but a moral and ethical one.
Please don't start calling me names or questioning my morals or my education or any other little inside jokes you people have (you know if I'm talking about you).
It does not obscure the fact that the question is not being answered.
BTW My FICO score is 790. I have no axe to grind.

Re: How are programming errors(bugs) handled?

Anonymous — Fri, 06 Jul 2007 01:26:02 GMT

BOb I understand what you are saying. I would believe that these companies have large computer departments that are there to handle the trolls. I work for a large financial institution. In this institution there are many people and computers to make sure these trolls are eliminated.. Do computers make mistakes? Yes they do. I suggest you should talk to your Mortgage broker and ask him where he got your scores. I would not be mad if I had a 790.

Re: How are programming errors(bugs) handled?

Anonymous — Fri, 06 Jul 2007 01:42:55 GMT

My prior message was one of the one's deleted so I'll try to be nicey nice to Bob. Dear Bob, in the USA, companies almost never aknowledge making mistakes for fear of being sued by the greater populace. Take the automakers for instance, how many people died in due to the Ford Pinto and the Chrysler Minivans. These companies were unwilling to admit mistakes, for a certain time that is. So it is my belief that you'll never see any companies, including Fair Isaac, admit to making mistakes. That is ofcourse unless it will cost them more money to deny the mistake as in my example above. Still interested in meeting me for coffee?

Re: How are programming errors(bugs) handled?

Anonymous — Fri, 06 Jul 2007 01:54:20 GMT

I'm almost afraid to post having read the earlier thread.

But, and correct me if I'm wrong, I thought Fair Isaac "sold" the formula to the CRAs, and they each have all "tweaked" it a little? Which is why the score you get from the CRAs are FAKOs and not real FICOs.

Like I said, that was my understanding.

If that is the case, the onus would be on the CRAs if there was a glitch in the programming that calculates the scores. So I don't know how they would handle errors.

Ooops, guess that means I wasn't supposed to respond. Do forgive.

Message Edited by trinigal on 07-05-2007 06:54 PM

Re: How are programming errors(bugs) handled?

Anonymous — Fri, 06 Jul 2007 02:07:59 GMT

I am getting completely annoyed at my self for not making the question clear. I'm getting answers that do not resemble the questions.

I know the answer about robots or whatever is an attempt at humor. I'll treat it as such.

As I said in a previous thread the co I worked for would notify all involved and reissue corrected copies.

I know GM and Ford and Toyota get away with not acknowledging hazards. That does not make it right, moral, or ethical.

The question remains. How does FICO handle this? Do they ignore? Do they correct? This is all I wanted to know in the first place.

If they ignore is that right, wrong maybe both? If I was getting my report and they found a bug that affected my score I think I should be notified? These are peoples lives you know?

The responder who said computers make mistakes that is not true. The programmer is who makes mistakes. The computer is a machine. Put garbage in get garbage out.

Message Edited by posterbob on 07-05-2007 07:07 PM

Re: How are programming errors(bugs) handled?

Anonymous — Fri, 06 Jul 2007 02:00:14 GMT

I'll chime in and say to the OP that if you just go to the press release section of the fair-isaac website, you'll see that there are ALWAYS projects in the works to modify and improve the model.

AND to take it one more step forward there are countless reasons why the FICO model remains proprietary... The liklihood you will get the answer to your questions in a General Credit Issue forum on MYFICO.com are slim.

Good luck in your efforts.

790 is a pretty good score! What are your others?

Rob

Re: How are programming errors(bugs) handled?

Anonymous — Fri, 06 Jul 2007 02:20:48 GMT

That is the avg. They are all in the same range 787 790 793. My wifes are the same give or take a point. I have no axe to grind. Nobody seems to consider if something is right or wrong anymore? If thats how it is that's how it is. What happened to honesty?

If 1 or 2 of the people who read this say to themselves "hmm he's got a point there" is this the way it should be handled? and they tell 2 who tell another 2. Well church might be a little fuller.

Message Edited by posterbob on 07-05-2007 07:20 PM

Re: How are programming errors(bugs) handled?

Anonymous — Fri, 06 Jul 2007 02:16:06 GMT

no bob, i am serious, i read on bankrate.com that that is how they calculate scores. there was a lawsuit out of the 9th circuit court of appeals on a computer error similar to what you mentioned. very interesting case. this girl wasnt able to get financing for her breast augmentation b/c equifax reported that she had defaulted on her hooters mastercard, when in fact she had never been late, well, except for the one time that she got stiffed at hooters, but she miscarried. the judge ruled that in order to be in compliance with federal law, each cra must use the process that i described above before handing out credit scores. the cra appealed to the us supreme court, but withdrew their appeal because they did not want their name broadcast all over the media in a case called Doe v. Hooters, Equifax, et.al....if you dont believe me, go look it up.

Re: How are programming errors(bugs) handled?

Anonymous — Fri, 06 Jul 2007 02:18:28 GMT

dog wrote:
no bob, i am serious, i read on bankrate.com that that is how they calculate scores. there was a lawsuit out of the 9th circuit court of appeals on a computer error similar to what you mentioned. very interesting case. this girl wasnt able to get financing for her breast augmentation b/c equifax reported that she had defaulted on her hooters mastercard, when in fact she had never been late, well, except for the one time that she got stiffed at hooters, but she miscarried. the judge ruled that in order to be in compliance with federal law, each cra must use the process that i described above before handing out credit scores. the cra appealed to the us supreme court, but withdrew their appeal because they did not want their name broadcast all over the media in a case called Doe v. Hooters, Equifax, et.al....if you dont believe me, go look it up.

Re: How are programming errors(bugs) handled?

Anonymous — Fri, 06 Jul 2007 02:33:56 GMT

WOW....disregard my post before this one.....another one of them dam blonde moments. Or, maybe I'll blame it on the hangover. But please believe me when i say i REALLY am a smart individual!!!! I think I'll very quietly leave this thread for now and go activate my newest AMEX that came in the mail today...............................

dog wrote:
no bob, i am serious, i read on bankrate.com that that is how they calculate scores. there was a lawsuit out of the 9th circuit court of appeals on a computer error similar to what you mentioned. very interesting case. this girl wasnt able to get financing for her breast augmentation b/c equifax reported that she had defaulted on her hooters mastercard, when in fact she had never been late, well, except for the one time that she got stiffed at hooters, but she miscarried. the judge ruled that in order to be in compliance with federal law, each cra must use the process that i described above before handing out credit scores. the cra appealed to the us supreme court, but withdrew their appeal because they did not want their name broadcast all over the media in a case called Doe v. Hooters, Equifax, et.al....if you dont believe me, go look it up.

Message Edited by flygirl on 07-05-2007 09:33 PM

Message Edited by flygirl on 07-05-2007 09:33 PM

Re: How are programming errors(bugs) handled?

Anonymous — Fri, 06 Jul 2007 03:11:49 GMT

Mr Crocpa I am not feeling hostile like I was before. I apologise for the things I said. They were out of line.

The answer you just gave was the only one that even attempted to answer my question. I don't understand your hostility in the first thread.

Even now I reworded everything and still I get answers about Hooters and robots and God knows what else. People insinuating I lie. I've had enough.

Message Edited by posterbob on 07-05-2007 08:11 PM

Re: How are programming errors(bugs) handled?

Anonymous — Fri, 06 Jul 2007 03:14:35 GMT

I like controversy. Bob is contrivertial. I like Bob.

Re: How are programming errors(bugs) handled?

Anonymous — Fri, 06 Jul 2007 03:16:00 GMT

Honestly, I don't think those questions can be answered by anyone but someone from FICO management. They are the ones who would have to make an executive decision on how to handle bugs. And so would the CRAs given that they do perform their own calculations.

The same way I don't think anyone could speak for Ford or GM or the Chinese maufacturers who painted children's toys with paint containing lead. Only they can do that.

The best we can do on this forum is guess.

Message Edited by trinigal on 07-05-2007 08:16 PM

Re: How are programming errors(bugs) handled?

Anonymous — Fri, 06 Jul 2007 03:40:48 GMT

Like Trinigal, I believe this is a question that probably will not have an answer on these forums. There's really nobody qualified to give an official answer as far as I'm aware, so it's really all speculation.

If I end up needing to remove posts from here one more time, I'm going to shut this thread down. Just FYI.

Re: How are programming errors(bugs) handled?

Anonymous — Fri, 06 Jul 2007 03:42:49 GMT

I'm of the opinion that Fair Isaac likely introduces a certain amount of "noise" into the scoring results to try and make reverse-engineering the formula more difficult. I wouldn't be a bit surprised to find that a random number generator generates a number between 1 and 6, then flips a virtual coin to decide whether to add or subtract that number from your score on a given pull. Kind of like how the U.S. GPS satellite system would throw some noise into readings given to civilians...only the military had access to the precise data.

Re: How are programming errors(bugs) handled?

Anonymous — Fri, 06 Jul 2007 03:55:32 GMT

TheNewWorldMan wrote:
I'm of the opinion that Fair Isaac likely introduces a certain amount of "noise" into the scoring results to try and make reverse-engineering the formula more difficult. I wouldn't be a bit surprised to find that a random number generator generates a number between 1 and 6, then flips a virtual coin to decide whether to add or subtract that number from your score on a given pull. Kind of like how the U.S. GPS satellite system would throw some noise into readings given to civilians...only the military had access to the precise data.

I'll go along with that one...just toss a coin to see if your score goes up today or down.

Re: How are programming errors(bugs) handled?

Anonymous — Fri, 06 Jul 2007 04:07:32 GMT

[edited out]

Posterbob, I understand, but if you're going to direct comments at me, please do so through my private message box to keep this thread a little more on topic. It's the little yellow envelope in the upper right-hand corner of your screen. If you'd like me to close this thread, I'd be more than happy to. Just let me know.

Thanks!

--Raine

Message Edited by Raine on 07-05-2007 09:07 PM

Re: How are programming errors(bugs) handled?

Anonymous — Fri, 06 Jul 2007 04:20:54 GMT

Thread locked by request of posterbob. We both decided this thread wasn't going anywhere positive. Thanks to those who tried to help!