topic Re: Credit Card Fraud in General Credit Topics

Credit Card Fraud

tufa4311 — Fri, 13 Nov 2015 21:09:10 GMT

My accounts were breached online - 6K was transferred from my Visa to my Checking account, then the hackers transferred the 6K out of my checking account and it's gone. The fraud investigation is taking care of the money and I will get it back but this can take up to 10 days and until then my Visa account will show a UTIL of 106% - all due to the fraud. They can't empty out this account before the next report to the agencies thus my credit score will tank - current FICO is 759.

I have gone as high up the ladder as I am able to with no luck - I will need to wait the 10 day period.

We all know that UTIL in not supposed to have a memory - we also all know that many on this board don't think that is true.

I am looking at buying a car in the next 30-Days and have been pre-approved for my auto loan by my credit union. I do not know what will occur, if anything,. when my credit score tanks. Perhaps they will pull back the approval. Holding off on purchasing the car will be difficult - had a recent car accident and the car is a total loss thus I have only 30-days for the insurance covered rental.

Thoughts or suggestions.

Re: Credit Card Fraud

Anonymous — Fri, 13 Nov 2015 21:15:27 GMT

Get documentation from the bank and credit card due to the fraud. Hopefully the CU will take that into account when they finalize your car loan.

Also - close all your accounts and open with new account numbers.......so sorry for the mess you are in! Not fun I am sure.

Re: Credit Card Fraud

tufa4311 — Sun, 22 Nov 2015 05:52:41 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
Get documentation from the bank and credit card due to the fraud. Hopefully the CU will take that into account when they finalize your car loan.

Also - close all your accounts and open with new account numbers.......so sorry for the mess you are in! Not fun I am sure.

Update - so my CU pre-approved me for more than enough and will not pull my credit (already fed-ex'd me a blank check) so that's taken care of. ...

Now I'm just concerned about what this will do to my score. I believe I've done all I can but just want to make sure - am I missing anything. Is there anyway to have that account not report the balance? Freezing it or something, I dk...

If not I guess it'll be a good test for the UTIL memory debate...

Re: Credit Card Fraud

Anonymous — Sun, 22 Nov 2015 08:34:58 GMT

Hi Tufa. There's two issues.

One is whether the CRA will store the information that the credit card company reports to them. The answer is that yes they will store it, yes it goes onto your report, and when the CCC reports a much lower balance the following month, that will not erase what they reported before. This is because CRAs now store the balance reported not only for the most recent month but for every month going back at least a year or so, often much longer.

The other issue is what fields from the CRA that FICO uses to compute your score. The current FICO models (and those in the past) only use the most recently reported balance when assessing CC utilization. That is because these models were made before the CRAs started storing many consecutive months of balance and payment history.

But future credit scoring models will almost certainly be designed to consider the much richer dataset that the CRAs now supply. Exactly how they will do it no one can say for sure.

So this means that in a couple months from now your FICO 8 score will be fine. But if you want to ensure that the 106% utilization during Nov 2015 for that card is never considered by any future credit scoring model or any manual underwriter, then you need to work with the creditor to have that data corrected by each CRA.

Even simpler would be to work with the creditor now and see if they will agree to not report it. That may be difficult for them, since what they report is probably done in an automated fashion. But they can submit a correction a few months later.

I am not taking a position on whether you need to get this corrected. I am just letting you know that, if you decide you don't want it in your credit file, then you have to do the usual legwork to get it removed. A reasonable approach might be to use Credit Karma now to track your reports weekly (and print hardcopies). By mid January the new (far lower and correct) balance should be reporting. At that time you can try getting a full blown credit report from ACR and see what the historical balances say during Oct-Dec. If you want your Nov 2015 balance to only report the charges you made, you'll have to work with CRA and creditor to get that changed.

Re: Credit Card Fraud

tufa4311 — Sun, 22 Nov 2015 19:18:00 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
Hi Tufa. There's two issues.

One is whether the CRA will store the information that the credit card company reports to them. The answer is that yes they will store it, yes it goes onto your report, and when the CCC reports a much lower balance the following month, that will not erase what they reported before. This is because CRAs now store the balance reported not only for the most recent month but for every month going back at least a year or so, often much longer.

The other issue is what fields from the CRA that FICO uses to compute your score. The current FICO models (and those in the past) only use the most recently reported balance when assessing CC utilization. That is because these models were made before the CRAs started storing many consecutive months of balance and payment history.

But future credit scoring models will almost certainly be designed to consider the much richer dataset that the CRAs now supply. Exactly how they will do it no one can say for sure.

So this means that in a couple months from now your FICO 8 score will be fine. But if you want to ensure that the 106% utilization during Nov 2015 for that card is never considered by any future credit scoring model or any manual underwriter, then you need to work with the creditor to have that data corrected by each CRA.

Even simpler would be to work with the creditor now and see if they will agree to not report it. That may be difficult for them, since what they report is probably done in an automated fashion. But they can submit a correction a few months later.

I am not taking a position on whether you need to get this corrected. I am just letting you know that, if you decide you don't want it in your credit file, then you have to do the usual legwork to get it removed. A reasonable approach might be to use Credit Karma now to track your reports weekly (and print hardcopies). By mid January the new (far lower and correct) balance should be reporting. At that time you can try getting a full blown credit report from ACR and see what the historical balances say during Oct-Dec. If you want your Nov 2015 balance to only report the charges you made, you'll have to work with CRA and creditor to get that changed.

@Anonymous is amazing info @Anonymous! That is exactly why I posted this eventhough it *seemed* like there was nothing else to do. I never thought about past data as I assumed that creditors just looked at one's credit score and not thier credit file/history but there is no gaurantee that won't change in the future and/or that some creditors are not doing it now. I thought about the not reporting for this month but, sadly, I knew that finding the right person to make that happen would be close to impossible. These these are surely automated getting one out of the 2,136,548 balances they report is just something that they wouldn't do - eventhough someone does have the power. BUT, again, I think the important aspect here is to make sure that they get that balance off my report at some time. TY!

Re: Credit Card Fraud

tufa4311 — Sun, 22 Nov 2015 20:27:54 GMT

Just checked Credit Karma - lost 131 points and dropped to 628 due to the 100%+ UTIL. It really hurts looking at that score.

Re: Credit Card Fraud

datrucking210 — Mon, 23 Nov 2015 07:08:16 GMT

@tufa4311 wrote:
Just checked Credit Karma - lost 131 points and dropped to 628 due to the 100%+ UTIL. It really hurts looking at that score.

Hey it's a fako score so don't lose sleep over it. My CK score is 110 points lower than myFico score. Keep us posted though.

Re: Credit Card Fraud

Anonymous — Mon, 23 Nov 2015 16:05:58 GMT

Karma has a nice feature where you can click just on the account you want to focus on. Then there is a link that gives you the option to compare how the account reads in EQ vs. TU. If I were you, I'd do that and print the results. You'll want to note the balance in both and the date the the issuer reported it to both. Then you can forget about it for 35 days and then look again.

Presumably the new balance will be reported by then and your Vantage scores will jump back to where they were. A similar catastrophic drop and recovery will have happened with FICO 8.

At that point you can decide whether you want to pursue getting the CCC to change the Nov 2015 balance in each of the three CRAs. You may need a full blown official credit report from ACR to do that.

Re: Credit Card Fraud

takeshi74 — Tue, 24 Nov 2015 13:25:33 GMT

@tufa4311 wrote:
We all know that UTIL in not supposed to have a memory - we also all know that many on this board don't think that is true.

You'll always find various opinions on the internet. Revolving utilization is based on whatever is indicated as the balances and limits in the report that is used as a data source for the score being generated.

@tufa4311 wrote:
Just checked Credit Karma - lost 131 points and dropped to 628 due to the 100%+ UTIL. It really hurts looking at that score.

Don't worry over CK's VantageScores unless you know you have creditors that use them. The same applies to any scoring model. Always consider the relevance of a specific model & CRA to a given creditor.

@tufa4311 wrote:
I never thought about past data as I assumed that creditors just looked at one's credit score and not thier credit file/history but there is no gaurantee that won't change in the future and/or that some creditors are not doing it now.

We always say that it is never just about score. You entire credit profile always matters.

@datrucking210 wrote:

Hey it's a fako score so don't lose sleep over it.

Do not rely on such oversimplifications. Again, always consider the scoring model & CRA and the relevance of a given combo to a creditor. There are creditors that use VantageScores. Additionally, there isn't just one FICO model. There are many FICO models used by creditors (see also the Understanding FICO Scoring subforum and its stickies) so you can't just assume that any FICO is valid for every creditor out there. Even with FICO the specific scoring model will have an impact on the number generated. Even with FICO some models are on different point scales. If your creditor/product uses an EQ FICO 4 then a TU FICO 8 will not be relevant for that creditor/product.

A FAKO like the TransUnion New Account model, for example, is however not used by any creditor.

Re: Credit Card Fraud

tufa4311 — Fri, 27 Nov 2015 07:32:01 GMT

The credit card balance has now been adjusted and I am back down to under 5% UTI. Credit Karma will update in 3 days, let's see if I get all 131 points back. My Discover FICO was last updated on 11/12 and my Barclaycard FICO last updated on 11/08 and are at 751 and 753, respectively, thus neither have been affected by the issue, yet...

Will update as to the final outcome on my next FICO updates.

Re: Credit Card Fraud

tufa4311 — Sat, 12 Dec 2015 23:43:00 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
Karma has a nice feature where you can click just on the account you want to focus on. Then there is a link that gives you the option to compare how the account reads in EQ vs. TU. If I were you, I'd do that and print the results. You'll want to note the balance in both and the date the the issuer reported it to both. Then you can forget about it for 35 days and then look again.

Presumably the new balance will be reported by then and your Vantage scores will jump back to where they were. A similar catastrophic drop and recovery will have happened with FICO 8.

At that point you can decide whether you want to pursue getting the CCC to change the Nov 2015 balance in each of the three CRAs. You may need a full blown official credit report from ACR to do that.

With regard to past balances and current monthly reporting - are balances from the past re-updated on a monthly basis based on the reporting from the CCC or do the CRA's simply store them without ever going back to update unless some sort of dispute is made?

Re: Credit Card Fraud

tufa4311 — Sun, 20 Dec 2015 20:26:36 GMT

@tufa4311 wrote:
The credit card balance has now been adjusted and I am back down to under 5% UTI. Credit Karma will update in 3 days, let's see if I get all 131 points back. My Discover FICO was last updated on 11/12 and my Barclaycard FICO last updated on 11/08 and are at 751 and 753, respectively, thus neither have been affected by the issue, yet...

Will update as to the final outcome on my next FICO updates.

CK EQ just updated with new balance - jumped 127 points - just under the 131 points lost. Oddly, CK TU, which updated at the same time, still has the old balance - it was not updated - why? In addition, my FICO from Discover, last updated 12/12 dropped from 753 to 716 due to the "%age of Balances is too high on revolving accounts" - the only balance I have reporting is the one account in question, so FICO is now taking into account the 106% UTIL but the hit is no where as hard as I thought it would be. While that one card is at 106%, my overall is still under 10%. FICO and CK really work differently - look at the different weights each place on overall vs individual UTIL.

Re: Credit Card Fraud

Anonymous — Thu, 07 Jan 2016 15:40:17 GMT

@tufa4311 wrote:
@Anonymous wrote:
Karma has a nice feature where you can click just on the account you want to focus on. Then there is a link that gives you the option to compare how the account reads in EQ vs. TU. If I were you, I'd do that and print the results. You'll want to note the balance in both and the date the the issuer reported it to both. Then you can forget about it for 35 days and then look again.

Presumably the new balance will be reported by then and your Vantage scores will jump back to where they were. A similar catastrophic drop and recovery will have happened with FICO 8.

At that point you can decide whether you want to pursue getting the CCC to change the Nov 2015 balance in each of the three CRAs. You may need a full blown official credit report from ACR to do that.
With regard to past balances and current monthly reporting - are balances from the past re-updated on a monthly basis based on the reporting from the CCC or do the CRA's simply store them without ever going back to update unless some sort of dispute is made?

That's a really interesting question. My guess (but just a guess) is that the answer is somewhere in between. Something like this:

Once a balance in the past has been submitted, then the CRA will keep that as the "true" recorded balance for that month unless the creditor intentionally resubmits a correction. In other words, probably your second scenario, except that the word "dispute" typically means initiating a formal process with the CRA. I suspect that you do not need to do that in order to get it changed. You could just talk to the ~~CRA~~ CCC 3-4 months later, walk them through what happened, and then they can resubmit the change if they want.

PS. Hope you have a merry Christmas!

Re: Credit Card Fraud

tufa4311 — Thu, 07 Jan 2016 01:36:42 GMT

Ok, the other has jumped back up:

CK TU 753->619-740

CK EQ 762->628->751

Didn't gain back all the points I lost - at least in CK.

Re: Credit Card Fraud

Anonymous — Thu, 07 Jan 2016 15:55:39 GMT

Thanks for the update. Watching what happens with credit scores is always a bit like performing an experiment with a dirty test tube. It's very hard to make sure that nothing has changed between the two points in time except the one thing you think you are "testing.". In fact in some respects that's impossible, since accounts age a tiny bit. In the case of CK, which uses Vantage Score, many things could be going on. I have been told that Vantage is sensitive to the raw dollar amount in your balances, not just the % utilization, so that could be a difference between the two points in time.

I am 99.9% certain that your FICO scores (version 8 and earlier) will totally ignore what your balance might have been 2+ months in the past. But as we talked about before, the data of that past historical balance will be in your actual credit reports. It is visible to anyone doing a manual review and it is possible that future scoring models might use it in some way or another. So should you really want it corrected, you can talk to the CCC about it in a couple months.

PS. I just noticed that I made a typo in my last post. I was typing too fast. I said "CRA" towards the end when I meant CCC (credit card company). I corrected it with a strikethru and put CCC in red.

Re: Credit Card Fraud

tufa4311 — Mon, 11 Jan 2016 03:45:52 GMT

Need a little guidance here. So now all the funds have been returned. I'll need to ensure the history is fixed. Looking at past credit reports there is nothing about "highest balance" as shown on CK, there is nothing but the current balance. Currently, is there anywhere in our credit report/credit file held at the CB's that shows past balances/highest balance or anything like it, even if they don;t show it to us, do they have it?

Second, would a credit check by, a mortgage co, for example, in any way see that 100%+ UTIL or balance from the past? It was mentioned that they would see it in a manual review - what is that, where do they get that, is that just what the CB's store from past data, how is that fixed, is that past data updated each time thus it's fixed at the credit card co or is it stored at the CB annd not updated?

So many questions...I have the right to get this fixed I just don't know where these data points are and how to fix them.

Re: Credit Card Fraud

Anonymous — Mon, 11 Jan 2016 05:05:24 GMT

My comments in blue below,

@tufa4311 wrote:
Need a little guidance here. So now all the funds have been returned. I'll need to ensure the history is fixed. Looking at past credit reports there is nothing about "highest balance" as shown on CK, there is nothing but the current balance. Currently, is there anywhere in our credit report/credit file held at the CB's that shows past balances/highest balance or anything like it, even if they don;t show it to us, do they have it?

Yes they have it. If you get a full blown credit report, like the sort you would get at AnnualCreditReport.com, it is in there. It will show you the reported balance for every distinct month stretching back quite a while, at least 24 months I think. It also shows you how much of that balance you later paid on.

Third-party credit monitoring services that provide credit reports (like Credit Karma or myFICO) don't necessarily include that level of detail. But if you get a full credit report from ACR you'll see it.

Second, would a credit check by, a mortgage co, for example, in any way see that 100%+ UTIL or balance from the past?

Yes.

It was mentioned that they would see it in a manual review - what is that, where do they get that,

That is where a human from the lender pulls your credit reports, and looks at each account on each report. Manual reviews are in contrast to an automated review (like a credit scoring algorithm does). Think of it like the difference between manual and automatic transmission on a car. With manual, you are using your hands to shift into each gear -- the human driver has much more control over exactly what the car does,

is that just what the CB's store from past data, how is that fixed, is that past data updated each time thus it's fixed at the credit card co or is it stored at the CB annd not updated?

Both. The CCC has a record of all your past balances for the best few years. And the CRA, once the balance is submitted for a particular month, has that balance stored in its database. I would assume that the CRA will not make a change to its database unless the CCC goes out of its way to ask them to do that.

So many questions...I have the right to get this fixed I just don't know where these data points are and how to fix them.

Re: Credit Card Fraud

tufa4311 — Tue, 12 Jan 2016 03:16:30 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
My comments in blue below,

@tufa4311 wrote:
Yes they have it. If you get a full blown credit report, like the sort you would get at AnnualCreditReport.com, it is in there. It will show you the reported balance for every distinct month stretching back quite a while, at least 24 months I think. It also shows you how much of that balance you later paid on.

@tufa4311 wrote:
ok so as long as I get the full credit report clean to the point where I don't see that balance any further than that it was cleaned correctly by the CCC?

Re: Credit Card Fraud

Anonymous — Tue, 12 Jan 2016 06:48:08 GMT

Yes. But exactly how they resubmit (to each CRA) a balance that happened three months ago -- this I don't know. If it was resubmitting the current balance that would be easy. But that is not what you are asking, so it's interesting.

The first thing you should do is to pull a fill credit report for one of the three CRAs do that you can see what it looks like to see all these historical balances.

And then the next thing is to talk to the CCC and make sure you can convince them to be willing to change it. Remember that your balance really was 106% of its credit limit. That was truthfully reported to the CRA. It's just that you didn't personally make the charges that caused the balance to be so high.

Re: Credit Card Fraud

tufa4311 — Tue, 12 Jan 2016 23:37:37 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:

Remember that your balance really was 106% of its credit limit. That was truthfully reported to the CRA. It's just that you didn't personally make the charges that caused the balance to be so high.

Sure, but while this follows the letter of the law, it doesn't follow the spirit. As we know, a credit report is something that anyone should be able to use to get a *accuracte* picture of one's credit history; seeing that balance would not be an accurate picture of my credit history.

I'll continue to work on it and keep updating.