topic Re: Chargeback Question in General Credit Topics

Chargeback Question

joeyh2007 — Tue, 29 Nov 2016 02:48:13 GMT

Hi all its been awhile since I've posted but I could use some feedback. I recently went to an urgent care facility and paid $150 for the service on my Amex platinum. A few days later my common cold turned into a sinus infecton and I wanted to go back to the same place for a follow up and thought I would receive better service. Instead of acknowledging that they didnt really help me the first time they wanted to charge me a lot more and do a whole new work up on me. I was appalled and thought this was big business and not healthcare. So I called Amex and disputed the charge with the reason being that I was dissatisfied with the quality of service. I won the dispute and now the billing department of the urgent care facility is calling me trying to get the money.

So my questions are as follows:

1. Is it legal for them to still try to collect after I won the dispute?

2. What is my right as a consumer if they continue to persue me or send the bill to collections?

3. Will I need to contact an attorney?

Thanks for the feedback.

Re: Chargeback Question

Anonymous — Tue, 29 Nov 2016 03:18:59 GMT

Can you clarify whether (from the perspective of the UCF) there were two dates of service (separated by a few days, each with their own charges) or just one DOS?

If there were two dates of service, which one did you dispute with Amex? And is the UCF coming after you for both?

This is something I don't personally know much about, but I couldn't tell from your narrative the answer to this, and anyone who helps you might want to know in order to give you best advice.

Re: Chargeback Question

joeyh2007 — Tue, 29 Nov 2016 03:27:07 GMT

I only went to the UCF once. I was going to go a second time but never went when they told me how much it would cost right after I was there 3 days prior. So there was only one charge, i disputed it with Amex and won, and now the UCF is coming after me trying to collect.

Re: Chargeback Question

UncleB — Tue, 29 Nov 2016 06:23:18 GMT

@joeyh2007 wrote:
I only went to the UCF once. I was going to go a second time but never went when they told me how much it would cost right after I was there 3 days prior. So there was only one charge, i disputed it with Amex and won, and now the UCF is coming after me trying to collect.

This is a tough one, since I know how it will likely turn out, but I don't like my own answer.

From my past experience with a period of being uninsured myself I can say that they will likely continue to pursue the $150... they aren't concerned with the dispute, only that they weren't paid. To them, it's similar to if you had paid by check, then stopped-payment or the check had bounced (I'm not saying I agree, just that that's how it will be viewed by them).

Since you did see them for a visit and technically "services were rendered" they are likely going to insist that they are due payment regardless of your opinion of the service you received. Due to the relatively low dollar amount they might not pursue it vigorously, but it could be reported to the credit bureaus.

Once years ago I had a $25 doc-in-the-box bill report to the bureaus; come to find I didn't even owe the money (it was an insurance write-off they missed). When I called about it the office manager apologized and told me it was under their threshold for collections anyway (I think at that time the office manager told me only $100+ went to collections) but I had to go through the formalities of having it removed anyway.

Depending on how much you believe it would impact your finances it might be worth paying it since it's a relatively small amount... I personally woudn't want to take a hit on my credit for $150, but of course you'll have to determine if it's worth it to you. You could check with an attorney, but again due to the low dollar amount it's likely the attorney fees will be more than $150 anyway.

Good luck whatever you decide!

Re: Chargeback Question

Anonymous — Tue, 29 Nov 2016 06:37:33 GMT

joeyh2007 wrote:

So my questions are as follows:

1. Is it legal for them to still try to collect after I won the dispute?

2. What is my right as a consumer if they continue to persue me or send the bill to collections?

3. Will I need to contact an attorney?

Thanks for the feedback.

Here are the answers to your questions:

1. Absolutely - In general, successfully disputing a credit card charge has no impact on the legal enforceability of a debt. A successful dispute merely places your money back in your wallet, and the ball in the merchant's court as it were. If there remains a legitimate obligation, the merchant can resort to other legal means to collect.

2. The same as if a credit card were never involved in the transaction. If they can prove that services were rendered that have not been paid for, they can collect on that debt.

3. Your call - personally I doubt you would get value for money hiring an attorney to defend you from a collection effort on $150 - most likely you would pay a lot less just coughing up the $150.

Good Luck

Re: Chargeback Question

RobertEG — Tue, 29 Nov 2016 08:55:32 GMT

Was your dispute a formal dispute under the Fair Credit Billing Act (FCBA)?

Legal rights depend upon the statute or reg that was the basis for the dispute.

Re: Chargeback Question

fltireguy — Wed, 30 Nov 2016 13:26:53 GMT

The chargback being successful, and you recieving credit from AMEX, and the merchant getting charged back is one thing.

The fact that you are still legally responsible to pay for the services that were rendered is another. Quite simply, you didn't pay them (now that the chargeback went thru).

If you prevail in a chargeback scenario, it doesn't mean that you don't have to pay for the product/service, as is the common misconception. You don't get anything for free. You would have to go to court for that, or have the merchant agree to cancel whatever amount you might owe.

A few years back, I had a chargeback from one of my customers for an item that they bought. Discover sided with the customer, and I was debited for the $2500 ish for the chargeback. They would NOT return the item. I called a collection agency in the city where the customer lived ((the item was shipped to the customer, I even offered to pay return freight, at a cost to me of $300 ish - they refused). The end result was that the customer lost in court, and ended up paying somewhere in the neighborhood of $3800 when it was all said and done...

Re: Chargeback Question

fltireguy — Wed, 30 Nov 2016 13:29:38 GMT

@UncleB wrote:
@joeyh2007 wrote:
I only went to the UCF once. I was going to go a second time but never went when they told me how much it would cost right after I was there 3 days prior. So there was only one charge, i disputed it with Amex and won, and now the UCF is coming after me trying to collect.
This is a tough one, since I know how it will likely turn out, but I don't like my own answer.

From my past experience with a period of being uninsured myself I can say that they will likely continue to pursue the $150... they aren't concerned with the dispute, only that they weren't paid. To them, it's similar to if you had paid by check, then stopped-payment or the check had bounced (I'm not saying I agree, just that that's how it will be viewed by them).

Since you did see them for a visit and technically "services were rendered" they are likely going to insist that they are due payment regardless of your opinion of the service you received. Due to the relatively low dollar amount they might not pursue it vigorously, but it could be reported to the credit bureaus.

Once years ago I had a $25 doc-in-the-box bill report to the bureaus; come to find I didn't even owe the money (it was an insurance write-off they missed). When I called about it the office manager apologized and told me it was under their threshold for collections anyway (I think at that time the office manager told me only $100+ went to collections) but I had to go through the formalities of having it removed anyway.

Depending on how much you believe it would impact your finances it might be worth paying it since it's a relatively small amount... I personally woudn't want to take a hit on my credit for $150, but of course you'll have to determine if it's worth it to you. You could check with an attorney, but again due to the low dollar amount it's likely the attorney fees will be more than $150 anyway.

Good luck whatever you decide!

UncleB, the difference here is that in most states, bouncing the check is a crime, as is stopping payment (theft of services)..

Re: Chargeback Question

UncleB — Wed, 30 Nov 2016 13:52:58 GMT

@fltireguy wrote:
@UncleB wrote:
@joeyh2007 wrote:
I only went to the UCF once. I was going to go a second time but never went when they told me how much it would cost right after I was there 3 days prior. So there was only one charge, i disputed it with Amex and won, and now the UCF is coming after me trying to collect.
This is a tough one, since I know how it will likely turn out, but I don't like my own answer.

From my past experience with a period of being uninsured myself I can say that they will likely continue to pursue the $150... they aren't concerned with the dispute, only that they weren't paid. To them, it's similar to if you had paid by check, then stopped-payment or the check had bounced (I'm not saying I agree, just that that's how it will be viewed by them).

Since you did see them for a visit and technically "services were rendered" they are likely going to insist that they are due payment regardless of your opinion of the service you received. Due to the relatively low dollar amount they might not pursue it vigorously, but it could be reported to the credit bureaus.

Once years ago I had a $25 doc-in-the-box bill report to the bureaus; come to find I didn't even owe the money (it was an insurance write-off they missed). When I called about it the office manager apologized and told me it was under their threshold for collections anyway (I think at that time the office manager told me only $100+ went to collections) but I had to go through the formalities of having it removed anyway.

Depending on how much you believe it would impact your finances it might be worth paying it since it's a relatively small amount... I personally woudn't want to take a hit on my credit for $150, but of course you'll have to determine if it's worth it to you. You could check with an attorney, but again due to the low dollar amount it's likely the attorney fees will be more than $150 anyway.

Good luck whatever you decide!
UncleB, the difference here is that in most states, bouncing the check is a crime, as is stopping payment (theft of services)..

I agree completely - I only connected the two ideas since in each case the result is the same; i.e. something for nothing, notwithstanding of if you are pleased with the outcome or not, as in this situation.

I also agree that writing a bad check is a criminal matter, while reversing a charge is generally a civil matter (as your example demonstrates). Legally that's an important difference, but ethically (to me) they are similar, at least in this situation.

On here I tend to avoid issues of ethics, since that's often subjective, but in this case my primary point was that happy or not services were rendered, and the bill doesn't just 'disappear' because you're not pleased. Since this case involves services and not merchandise there's nothing to 'return', however I would hope that the provider would be willing to work with the OP to come to a mutually acceptable solution. It might be less than full payment, but I do think it's a stretch to think that no payment should be acceptable to the provider, which is effectively what the chargeback did.

I'm genuinely sorry for the OP that things didn't work out - that's not a question - and that's why I stated I didn't like my own answer. Factually, though - and in agreement with you - I feel he'll be fighting an uphill battle with this. The OP would likely be better off to pay the bill, and write this one off as a 'learning experience'. If it were me, I would use it as motivation to better research service providers (medical or otherwise) in the future.

Just my 2¢.

Re: Chargeback Question

joeyh2007 — Wed, 30 Nov 2016 14:02:28 GMT

So I ended up repaying the $150 and will just never go to this facility. I never disputed the charge to try to get something for free, but to force the merchant to have a dialogue with me. Before the dispute I tried to talk to them and they threw me aside. That's when I opened the dispute because of their refusal to discuss my dissatisfaction. I have to make it clear that I did not initially pay knowing I was going to dispute because I know that's illegal and immoral. I only disputed because of my dissatisfaction in an effort to work with the merchant on a compromise.

So in the end, the merchant still refused to work with me but it's better to pay the bill and never use them again instead of going to collections.

Re: Chargeback Question

UncleB — Wed, 30 Nov 2016 14:11:39 GMT

@joeyh2007 wrote:
So I ended up repaying the $150 and will just never go to this facility. I never disputed the charge to try to get something for free, but to force the merchant to have a dialogue with me. Before the dispute I tried to talk to them and they threw me aside. That's when I opened the dispute because of their refusal to discuss my dissatisfaction. I have to make it clear that I did not initially pay knowing I was going to dispute because I know that's illegal and immoral. I only disputed because of my dissatisfaction in an effort to work with the merchant on a compromise.

So in the end, the merchant still refused to work with me but it's better to pay the bill and never use them again instead of going to collections.

You did what I would have done... something this relatively minor isn't worth harming your own credit.

I'm not making a judgement on the particulars of your situation in either direction, but had the facility reached out to you and worked something out, your feelings might be quite different; I know mine would be.

The way things ended you'll likely share your experience with friends and family (most of my own referrals have come from family) and those lost business opportunities could make $150 seem like peanuts. Even if they don't realize it, you'll be able to find comfort in knowing.