topic Re: Tales from the other side, part 2 in General Credit Topics

Tales from the other side, part 2

Anonymous — Fri, 13 Jul 2007 17:28:10 GMT

So I told y'all about having to forclose on a house we sold in August of 2006. Well, there's been a new horrific development.

I had an attorney examine the title on the property and he discovered two liens that have been placed on title on debts owed by the people we "sold" to.

One is for taxes owed the city: $23,000.00

And that's the little one.

The second one is for a business loan: $700,000.00

Yes. That's SEVEN-HUNDRED THOUSAND dollars.

If I get the deed-in-lieu of foreclosure, the liens stay in place. So, I can't sell the property, can't re-fi and neither can my buyer. I would have to do a full court ordered foreclosure, sell the house at Sherrif's auction and pray to Mary, Jesus and God that it sells for more than I owe on it. If it sells for less, I would be resposible for making up the difference.

And that's why mortgage companies put you throught the ringer for a loan.

Re: Tales from the other side, part 2

Anonymous — Fri, 13 Jul 2007 17:43:27 GMT

Oh my gosh Tex!!! I am so sorry. You couldn't dream up anything this horrible.

Re: Tales from the other side, part 2

Anonymous — Fri, 13 Jul 2007 17:45:57 GMT

Thanks, Lori!

Re: Tales from the other side, part 2

Anonymous — Fri, 13 Jul 2007 17:48:55 GMT

TexMontana wrote:
So I told y'all about having to forclose on a house we sold in August of 2006.
...
I had an attorney examine the title on the property and he discovered two liens that have been placed on title on debts owed by the people we "sold" to.

Whoa! Hold up.

You sold the house to the folks in there now, so you were just doing seller financing, right?

Re: Tales from the other side, part 2

Anonymous — Fri, 13 Jul 2007 18:44:03 GMT

They assumed mortgage with Countrywide, we carried second.

Re: Tales from the other side, part 2

Anonymous — Fri, 13 Jul 2007 21:04:32 GMT

IIRC, you're in Oklahoma. Is this house in Oklahoma?

Re: Tales from the other side, part 2

Anonymous — Fri, 13 Jul 2007 22:22:18 GMT

Noah-

Yes and Yes.

Re: Tales from the other side, part 2

Jacque383 — Sat, 14 Jul 2007 01:24:00 GMT

Hi TexMontana,

I am one of those that buys repos all day long (I'm the 5'5" blonde in the back who bids right before the gavel strikes "sold.")...I see this stuff all day long at the court house auctions, private auctions and in talking to way more sellers over these past 6 months.

Anyway, this loan for the business....Is the business still operating? What type of business? Do you know whether the owner has any other assests of value? Assests in the business? Is the first mortgage current? What's the home worth? How much is the first loan? How much is your second?

Try to post more information and I'll tell you what I know...

Re: Tales from the other side, part 2

Jacque383 — Sat, 14 Jul 2007 04:55:19 GMT

By the way the tax liens will always take precedence over mortgages or any other lien.

However, other liens go in order of the date they were recorded. I assume you recorded a lien with the county? Things may not be that bad if you recorded and may be next in line for payment after the sale.

You didn't give us any numbers as to present value, how much the first is and if they are current or in arrears with the first.

Re: Tales from the other side, part 2

Anonymous — Sat, 14 Jul 2007 12:10:36 GMT

The first is not in arrears. My place in line is firm - the sale was a paper sale - no money exchanged. I'm not certain that the lien by the city is for taxes - it's not income or property taxes, more likely sales tax that the buyer never paid from his former business.

The first is about $110K. Mine is $60K sales price was $170K. Presently the home is worth about $160K-ish.

Talked to the attorney again yesterday- he's got some ideas as to how to get them out NOW. Which is what I want. Seller claims liens shouldn't be there as the debts were included in BK. In Okla, you can go online and lok at court dockets, which I did. Holy jeezum-crow- these people have been sued (and lost) about 12 times. I don't think they have ever made good on a debt. Hotel business- Foreclosure, Home-Foreclosure, Student loans- Judgements, her salary (she's an elementary school teacher) are being garnished. It goes on and on. And the two debts which are now liens- neither was noted in the court records as having been included in Bk. Makes sense- I don't think one can include taxes in a ch7 bk.

My first goal, like I said, is to GET THEM OUT. I called him yesterday to let him know about the liens. Left a voice mail. He doesn't bother calling back, replies by email. Really flippant - Oh, I emailed my attorney about this. Don't worry about it. RIGHT! If I were in his shoes, I would have those BK papers out so fast they would catch fire. He knows he's bs-ing. I sent him copies of his court records (so he would know I saw them) along woth a letter offering him a dee-in-lieu of foreclosure (again). Told him I'm sure he doesn't want me to do everything I CAN do - judgements, garnishments etc. He'll get it in the mail today, so we'll see.

Re: Tales from the other side, part 2

Jacque383 — Sat, 14 Jul 2007 15:32:44 GMT

Hi,

I'm not sure I've got all the pieces together in this, but I've taken over houses with liens much higher than the value of the house.

Here's what I would do:

Contact the lender of the $700,000 loan and offer him a grand to remove the lien. (Yes, they do take these offers all the time....). Tell him that's what it's going to cost you to foreclose anyway and this will save you the hassle of having to do it in court. They often take these deals because it's free money at this point.

You can then get the Deed in Lieu of and move forward. Deeds in Lieu come in different flavors, so be sure you negotiate and not just agree to call things good by accepting it.

Get something in return for not doing a foreclosure against your buyer. This is typically a note for whatever you can get them to commit to.

Hopefully, they've got something you can secure it to, but if not, at least there's a possibility of something to make up for your time and trouble.

(I'm assuming that by "buyer" you're referring to your current "buyer" alredy in the house).

Don't be afraid of contacting the 700K lien. Trust me, he's not going to get anything and he'll realize it real quick. He'll jump on money to remove the lien.

Hope this helps.

Re: Tales from the other side, part 2

Anonymous — Sat, 14 Jul 2007 16:11:51 GMT

"Hope this helps" ~ it does and thanks!

Yeah - you and I are thinking along the same lines. This bozo - the "buyer" doesn't seem at all receptive to the deed in lieu. I think he just wants to stay there until he is absolutely forced out. Sad. Like I wrote earlier - I pulled up his court dockets and he seems to let everything go to court - without showing up. One thing in my favor - they filed a BK in 2004, so they can't file again anytime soon!

Re: Tales from the other side, part 2

Jacque383 — Sat, 14 Jul 2007 18:47:44 GMT

Well Tex another thing you can do (and I've seen this work a number of times) is to explore with your attorney any possibility of criminal charges. Maybe something along the lines of fraud! Unfortunately, with the position it sounds like they are in threatening them with an IOU type of thing isn't going to do much, look at all the IOU's they already have against them.

In the meantime they have a place to live and trust me they will milk it for as long as they can. You may also want to explore the possibility of threatening the wifes job as a teacher, therebuy cutting of their source of comfort money. I once had a judgement against a teacher and that particular school district wouldn't allow teachers to have a criminal record of any kind, and they were automatically suspended without pay if they had outstanding judgements. It was pay up or lose the job.

Now at the same time, if these people are simply behind in everything, have gotten way over their heads I'd really attempt to make a deal with them to leave. Sometimes it's easier to simply offer them $500 to leave on a certain date leaving the home in broom swept condition. I find that a lot of people hang on and push when they don't have a leg to stand on because they really don't have the money to leave. One guy of mine couldn't afford to leave, because I didn't trust him with the money instead I litereally rented the UHaul for him, provided a couple of guys and moved him out. Threw him a few hundred and we were done.

The old saying is true "you can't get blood from a turnip." It sounds like these folks don't have anything so instead focus on moving out, negotiating the liens and reselling. You can spin your wheels going after them and still wind up with nothing. Instead, find a way to bump them along, you can threaten all kinds of stuff, but be willing to negotiate in good faith.

Honestly, by doing so you'll find a whole lot less damage inside the house when you do get it back.

Best of luck to you.

Re: Tales from the other side, part 2

Anonymous — Sun, 15 Jul 2007 04:09:14 GMT

Thanks for all your input ~ I really appreciate that you took the time to write.

I have actually paid people to leave rental properties, and it has been an excellent tool when you are dealing with fairly decent people who have just hit fiancial starits. However, this guy is getting $14K on August 15th as financial aid for school/housing. He just lives in a realm of indifference and non-chalance regarding his bills. It's like you pointed out - he has a long history of this stuff. I sent him a letter stating that I would get a judgement and that I would garnish wages. His wife is already getting two garnishments at present. I'm just really pi$$ed off that I thought these were good people who had some credit problems - you know, like of lot of US! And he has treated my offers to let him walk away with complete disregard. In short, I think he is a bad person. I would have preffered to help someone else.

Re: Tales from the other side, part 2

Jacque383 — Mon, 16 Jul 2007 01:06:11 GMT

Tex,

I've been in a similiar situation many times over with some of my renters. It's difficult, but you do need to get them out.

It sounds like you're on top of it already, just wanted to mention one more thing. If the 23K is a property tax lien, contact the holder, get an assignment of it, (in a different name by the way). Now you're in the drivers seat, foreclose out everything, clear title. Depending on your state many tax liens don't go to Sheriff's sale, which is even better for you.

Anyway best of luck and keep us informed on how it goes.