topic Re: Amex Dispute Question in General Credit Topics

Dispute Question

Anonymous — Tue, 14 Nov 2017 18:56:01 GMT

Hello everyone!

I hope everyone is having a great day!

I have a question regarding a credit card purchase that I made in person at a brick and mortar store. The items were faulty and did not work properly. I contacted c/s, explained the details and opened up a dispute. C/s suggested that I hold the merchandise for 90 days from the date of opening the dispute, which I did, and never heard anything so I discarded the merchandise per their instruction. After 24 days the dispute was ruled in my favor. The store never bothered to contact c/c regarding the dispute. It's been 1 year since I opened the dispute and 13 months since the purchase was made, I received an invoice in a regular mail envelope, with nothing else.

Anything to worry about here in regards to the store trying to take me to collections and it appearing on my credit reports? I did not sign any credit papers or contracts, just a straight brick and mortar purchase.

Thank you for bearing with me and this wall of text. Sorry if this is in the wrong place.

Re: Amex Dispute Question

Anonymous — Mon, 13 Nov 2017 22:30:43 GMT

Mortar takes a few days to dry, are you sure you gave it enough time?

Re: Amex Dispute Question

AverageJoesCredit — Mon, 13 Nov 2017 22:57:29 GMT

I think you will be fine.

Im more concerned with the constant brick and mortar reference lol. I think its ok to say in store, even Amazon has to come from somewhere

Re: Amex Dispute Question

SBR249 — Mon, 13 Nov 2017 23:14:12 GMT

I wouldn't just let it go without finding out more information about this. The fact that an invoice was issued means that somewhere some party considers you to have owed them something. Even if there's little evidence to support their claims, the system is sufficiently tilted in creditors' favor that they can send phantom debts to collections and really screw up your credit report. Best thing to do may be to aggressively nip it in the bud and at least send a certified or registered letter disputing the validity of the invoice.

Re: Amex Dispute Question

fltireguy — Mon, 13 Nov 2017 23:19:29 GMT

That is an interesting situation. Realistically, you may still owe for the merchandise, Since you did not return it. Just because the dispute went in your favor, does not mean that you’re entitled to free goods or services. I would be very careful with this, unless in a court of law you were told that you did not have to pay, which has not happened.

Re: Amex Dispute Question

Anonymous — Mon, 13 Nov 2017 23:21:39 GMT

@AJC, I agree with you, it should be ok, but it's always good to make sure. I guess I'm just used to saying brick & mortar, haha! Time to progress with the times!

@SBR249 I may do that if I get anything else from them. Just thought it was weird. Don't know if contacting AMEX may yield any new data?

Re: Amex Dispute Question

fltireguy — Mon, 13 Nov 2017 23:21:54 GMT

I should also add, that in a previous business that I owned I had 2 situations like this. I don’t know if the card issuer told the customer to return the merchandise or not, but in both cases I send them to collections. One customer paid me, the other one went to court and I got a default judgment. I never collected on the judgment. But, we are talking an item worth between two and $3000, so it was a fair chunk of change for me to pursue.

Re: Amex Dispute Question

Anonymous — Mon, 13 Nov 2017 23:23:50 GMT

@Fltireguy I was told by Amex when I opened the dispute to keep the merchandise for 90 days from that date, I did. When the dispute was ruled in my favor, Amex stated that they did not hear back from the merchant regarding the dispute or the merchandise. I waited 90 days and contacted Amex c/s again, they said ok to toss.

Re: Amex Dispute Question

Anonymous — Mon, 13 Nov 2017 23:24:41 GMT

@fltireguy, thank you for the additional info!

Re: Amex Dispute Question

SBR249 — Mon, 13 Nov 2017 23:48:20 GMT

This may depend on the merchant's contract with their payment processor. While IANAL, I would imagine that the original transaction was a contract in which the merchant agreed to accept the credit card as payment for goods and services. As such as long as the customer's credit card is valid and the transaction was authorized and approved by the CC issuer, the customer should be considered to have fulfilled his/her obligations under the contract for payment.

Disputes which arise later would likely be covered under merchant agreements in which the vendor agrees to accept the decision of AmEx as final and which bars the merchant from attempting to invoice the customer by other means. Such language may be standard for merchants as part of the conditions they must agree to in order to be able to accept credit cards in the first place.

In any case, credit cards and the protections they offer would be pretty meaningless if merchants aren't contractually prohibited from recovering their losses via some other means after losing a dispute. In addition to directly disputing the invoice with the vendor, I would contact AmEx and make them aware of this. If this does progress then it would be in AmEx's interest as well to intervene.

Edit: there is always the caveat that you should attempt to resolve any disputes with the merchant first and follow any refund/return policies that you agreed to when you made the purchase. Those would constitute part of the original contract that you agreed to when you conducted the transaction and would still be enforceable.

Re: Amex Dispute Question

SBR249 — Tue, 14 Nov 2017 00:04:52 GMT

@fltireguy wrote:
I should also add, that in a previous business that I owned I had 2 situations like this. I don’t know if the card issuer told the customer to return the merchandise or not, but in both cases I send them to collections. One customer paid me, the other one went to court and I got a default judgment. I never collected on the judgment. But, we are talking an item worth between two and $3000, so it was a fair chunk of change for me to pursue.

Again, IANAL but how would you have responded if either of those people disputed their debt under FDCPA and asked for evidence of the debt? The original purchase receipt would have shown the customer paying for the items with CCs and if they had won the chargebacks, they could then produce evidence of that. If you then invoiced them again for the same amount, what would you have used to prove that the customer had agreed to incur this new debt?

I'm not trying to attack you but I'm genuinely curious about how a merchant can legally handle this and how customers can protect themselves in such cases.

Edit: on further reading it is indeed true that merchants generally retain the right to pursue payment from the customer even after losing a chargeback and, if sued, the customer would then need to defend themselves adequately to prevail. However, I can't seen to find any information on whether specific merchant agreements contain any language that prohibits such or mandates arbitration with the CC company instead.

Re: Amex Dispute Question

RobertEG — Tue, 14 Nov 2017 08:15:53 GMT

Was the product clearly defective or damaged, or were you dissatisfied with it.

There is a legal distinction between goods that are not received or improperly billed or damaged, which are covered as billing errors under the Fair Credit Billing Act, and goods for which the consumer states dissatisfaction, which are covered as a "charge back" by the credit card company.

Was the dispute legally resolved as a billing error under the FCBA, or more broadly as a charge-back based on dissatisfaction?

Re: Amex Dispute Question

JVille — Tue, 14 Nov 2017 15:24:17 GMT

Did you ever attempt (on multiple occasions IN writing) to resolve this issue with the merchant prior to disputing with AmEx? Just because AmEx found in your favor it does not mean the Merchant will let you off the hook. I hope you have a Paper Trail of your attempts to advocate with the Merchant. They are within their rights to send you to Collection and you may need to take them to Small Claims. JMHO

You should have returned the defective item to the merchant unless they told you in writing to throw it alway. Sorry I think you have a problem.

Re: Amex Dispute Question

Anonymous — Tue, 14 Nov 2017 15:43:38 GMT

I owned various retail businesses in various markets for over 20 years and I never once "lost money" on a credit card dispute, namely because I kept very convincing paperwork and the people doing disputes didn't.

100% of collections I assigned to a local collector were paid in full very, very quickly.

Average item or service disputed was around $1500 with some as high as $6000 -- and in 100% of the cases, either the credit card company found in my favor or I knew the courts would when I filed a lawsuit.

When I've DONE disputes against vendors, I keep it all in writing, CMRRR, and give them a small amount of time to respond before I take "legal action" which includes disputing with a credit card company. So if they want to send me invoices, that's fine, but they'll be pretty perturbed at their legal or arbitration costs if they wish to pursue!

Re: Amex Dispute Question

Anonymous — Tue, 14 Nov 2017 18:53:35 GMT

Thank you everyone for all your responses, much appreciated!

I have my paper trail in order, not worried. Was genuinely curious if anyone had gone thru anything similar. Thank you to all who participated. Have a great day!

Mods, go ahead and lock this up.

Re: Amex Dispute Question

Anonymous — Tue, 14 Nov 2017 19:50:53 GMT

Thread locked at OP's request.