topic Re: Disputing Large Transaction (Car Purchase) in General Credit Topics

Disputing Large Transaction (Car Purchase)

Anonymous — Sun, 10 Dec 2017 07:17:25 GMT

So I just want to get an outside opinion on my situation. I drove to another state to an Autonation dealer to buy a specific used car. Salesman seemed like a nice guy, and they showed me all sorts of documention saying they did an alignment, replaced the struts and shocks, did an oil change etc. Only $5000. Good deal right? I put the entire thing on my Amex because CASH BACK and i had the cash to cover it so why not. When i got it home I took it to my mechanic and he told me they in fact did not change the struts and shocks, and the control arms were so worn out he could not align it because of liability! And the oil was almost 2 quarts low!! I called them and they basically told me to screw off and stopped taking my calls. When I got around to taking it to the DMV the didn't want to register it because the car odometer was a few thousand lower than the title paperwork! WHAT?!?! THEY ROLLED BACK THE ODOMETER TOO?! I finally got the title transferred had to sign a waiver saying my odometer was broken. That was the last straw. So I called American Express and they said they could probably get me a partial settlement to get my car actually repaired and had me send copies for the repair invoices, title paperwork, pictures of unrepaired items, actual car odometer, ect. So they filed a inquiry but I guess they didn't like that Autonation had to say about it because the charged back the entire 5k and amex sent me a check for the difference because it put my balance pretty far into the negative. Now I have a car titled to me and a total refund. But I still haven't heard anything from the dealership? That was almost 2 months ago but I am kind of on edge waiting to get some sort of letter saying i owe them or a collection to show up on my reports. 21 here with almost an 800 credit score, would hate to seee all my hard work go down the drain. Anyone else have some experience with this sort of situation?

Re: Disputing Large Transaction (Car Purchase)

Anonymous — Sun, 10 Dec 2017 07:19:51 GMT

Maybe I'm missing something? Amex refunded you and you still get to keep the car? What do you mean by a negative balance then?

Re: Disputing Large Transaction (Car Purchase)

Anonymous — Sun, 10 Dec 2017 07:32:05 GMT

Welcome to MyFico!!

I would send them an email instead of waiting. You don't want to get in tangled in a nasty lawsuit. Might be worth while posting this on Avvo or a similar website.

This has to do more with the car dealership than Amex

Re: Disputing Large Transaction (Car Purchase)

fltireguy — Sun, 10 Dec 2017 12:23:37 GMT

Be very careful here on this one... you might end up in court getting sued by Autonation. Your bra bet would have been to take the documentation from your mechanic and the car back to Autonation and ask them to check it out in their service department. Or, contact your state regulatory agency, or an experienced consumer attorney. At this point, you have a car that you did NOT pay for. And they will want their money. Just because the chargeback was successful does not mean that you have no financial liability at this point....

Re: Disputing Large Transaction (Car Purchase)

Glen_M — Sun, 10 Dec 2017 13:49:05 GMT

2 months and they haven't contacted you about returning the car?

What exactly did Amex tell you was the outcome of the dispute? I'd start with contacting them for any remaining details -- it seems highly likely that if you contact the dealership first they're going to jerk you around some more. They sound shady.

Re: Disputing Large Transaction (Car Purchase)

Anonymous — Tue, 12 Dec 2017 19:29:25 GMT

Yes they refunded the purchase to my account after they found the case in my favor did they chargeback (on Oct 1st) and because my balance is usually only like $400 I had a very negative balance. So they mailed me a check for the disputed amount (all 5k). I have the title in my name but the dealership has not contacted me yet. They are a good 7 hour drive from where I live in another state.

Re: Disputing Large Transaction (Car Purchase)

Hotcoals91 — Tue, 12 Dec 2017 21:54:34 GMT

Well i cant say i have any experience with this type of thing but whatever you do keep ALL THE PAPERWORK! And it wouldnt hurt to ask AMEX what, if anything you have to do with the car.

Re: Disputing Large Transaction (Car Purchase)

JVille — Wed, 13 Dec 2017 05:05:17 GMT

You need to have the vehicle returned immediately to the dealer. Before doing that you need to sit down with a Lawyer and get advice and have a letter of some sort sent to this dealership. That car does NOT belong to you!

Re: Disputing Large Transaction (Car Purchase)

trusty — Wed, 13 Dec 2017 16:04:08 GMT

A car belongs to whomever it is titled to. So, the OP does in fact own the car.

If the used car dealer wasn't such a fraud, they wouldn't have lost out in the dispute.

The right thing to do, would be to return the car, in lieu of receiving a dealer statement and letter stating the deal has been completely unwound, and monies refunded. Naturally, an attorney for the OP should review.

However, knowing bad actors... it's unlikely that such a shady dealer will agree to anything.

Furthermore, in the real world... giving the car back might leave the OP without the car - and still a lawsuit.

This is just part an parcel of capitalism, regulating itself. Oftentimes, someone has to lose out in a contractual dispute. The recourse for the party that loses out is a court of law. - Which, I don't think the dealer would have a very strong case, other than to - at best - have the car returned.

In light of this, I would keep the car and force the courts to resolve. Ideally, the car would be returned through a settlement negotiated by an attorney. If the dealer keeps acting in bad faith... oh well, their loss. In this case, rightfully so.

Re: Disputing Large Transaction (Car Purchase)

trusty — Wed, 13 Dec 2017 16:40:53 GMT

Also, regarding credit reporting; your obligation was to AMEX, which has been satisfied.

There is no basis whatsoever for the dealer to obtain a collection, as you never had a loan with the dealer. If you ever see a bogus collection, you simply forward to the credit bureau the AMEX paperwork declaring the dispute resolved.

In my opinion, a few thousand dollars is the small price for a dealer to pay for deliberately lying about the condition of known lemon. Further, messing with an odometer is straight up fraud. A dealer that perpetrates such fraud stands to lose a lot more than a few thousand dollars. How about their license to do business, full stop?

They probably perpetrate fraud on consumers so often, that they just consider it a cost of doing business.

Knowing that contractual disputes won't always go one way... we have to take our victories where we can get them.

The way our society works is oftentimes considered to be backwards. The right thing to do is often not legally advisable, as consumers invariably end up losing out when trying to do the right thing.

When one is in the driver's seat... one must play the cards as they have been dealt.

Therefore, continue to press your advantage - and your moral high ground - to either renegotiate the deal, equivalent to the actual condition of the product; or, endeavor to obtain settlement documents totally unwinding the situation.

Re: Disputing Large Transaction (Car Purchase)

JVille — Wed, 13 Dec 2017 16:47:08 GMT

Ahhh no, they have a car (Lemon or not) that has not been paid for. Please seek legal advise! The car dealership may be liars and thieves but I am assuming the OP is an honest and honorable person.

Re: Disputing Large Transaction (Car Purchase)

trusty — Wed, 13 Dec 2017 17:34:00 GMT

@JVille wrote:
Ahhh no, they have a car (Lemon or not) that has not been paid for. Please seek legal advise! The car dealership may be liars and thieves but I am assuming the OP is an honest and honorable person.

Being an, "honest and honorable person," in spite of a wholly fraudulent transaction being heaped upon the consumer... does not mean the consumer has to then just declare no harm no foul.

In fact, this is very often where people miscalculate their legal position. By, thinking common sense and good intentions mean anything, legally. I would agree - to seek legal advice.

But, the situation is clear. The OP has had the dispute resolved in the OP's favor. The fraudulent dealer's recourse is now the courts.

If we're just talking about determining right from wrong... than, the dealer committed fraud when they tampered with the odometer, and they absolutely deserve to lose out, subsequently.

If the OP decides to do anything, one may consider a word with the State Attorney, in lieu of reporting the dealer for fraud... with the documented evidence obtained from the DMV.

Converselly, if the OP just takes the car back... then the OP can be sued, end up with no car, and no further standing to report the fraud.

The fact that the consumer has to suffer and endure with a lemon, fraudulently heaped upon them... creates more legal standing for the consumer, than pretending nothing bad happened to them, in some misguided attempt to be above it all.

That kind of mindless earnestness, to a fault, just doesn't work anymore - in the modern world. It doesn't help situations, at all. Come to think of it, I don't know if it ever really did.

Perhaps that's a cynical way to look at things. - Or, just realistic. But, it's not for lack of trying. It has real precedent. This is why we post our experiences with others. So that they don't think that just trying to be the good guy is going to work. Let's face facts, it doesn't.

When someone is a victim of deliberate corporate fraud, there is no further purpose to automatically try to freely give out the benefit of doubt. At this point, the only fair and just thing to do becomes taking whatever is coming to them.

Re: Disputing Large Transaction (Car Purchase)

JVille — Wed, 13 Dec 2017 17:32:05 GMT

The car regardless of intent on either parties side has now not been paid for. Some legal communities may call this theft. These folks may be crooks but the OP must seek legal advice. He is going to be screwed by these people. At the very least he Can/WILL be turned over to collection, he has broken a legal contract and at this point it’s on him to prove to the courts (not the bank) that the Contract was illegal.
The OP may also want to contact the Attorney Generals Office in his state. And seek legal advice ASAP.

Re: Disputing Large Transaction (Car Purchase)

trusty — Wed, 13 Dec 2017 17:44:17 GMT

@JVille wrote:
The car regardless of intent on either parties side has now not been paid for. Some legal communities may call this theft. These folks may be crooks but the OP must seek legal advice. He is going to be screwed by these people. At the very least he Can/WILL be turned over to collection, he has broken a legal contract and at this point it’s on him to prove to the courts (not the bank) that the Contract was illegal.
The OP may also want to contact the Attorney Generals Office in his state. And seek legal advice ASAP.

That would probably be the case if everything was black and white.

The OP didn't steal anything. The dealer tried to steal his money through a wilfully fraudulent transaction... and foolishly ended up forfeiting the car in the process.

We live in the grey... where very often one side wins, and the other side loses, in spite of all the minutiae.

They can re-litigate in court. But, then the OP can bring out the DMV and the State Attorney. This is an unwinnable situation for a fraudulent dealer.

Again, they probably forfeit cars on occasion, perpetrating fraud on consumers. They'll probably just stop accepting credit cards, like other bad actors have done. Otherwise... it's just a cost of doing that kind of illegitimate business.

Re: Disputing Large Transaction (Car Purchase)

Kree — Thu, 14 Dec 2017 19:17:43 GMT

When I had a store I did not accept Amex for 2 reasons.

1. the price was too high, they charged double what Visa and MC did.

2. Amex merchant agreements are the pits. If a customer successfully proves merchandise is defective, I lose my money, and the customer gets to keep the item. There is no "refund at return" type of options.

Now I dealt with 15 dollar dvds, instead of 5000 dollar cars, but the agreement didn't specify price. Call up AMEX and ask if you get to keep the car, chances are they will say yes.

EDIT:

3. Amex chargebacks are binding, merchants agree not to arbitrate outside of AMEX system.

As a note, this is a decade ago, so things might have changed, but there is a good chance the car is yours.

Re: Disputing Large Transaction (Car Purchase)

JVille — Thu, 14 Dec 2017 19:43:51 GMT

Better get Am Ex to put that in writing and provide written documentation. 😳

Re: Disputing Large Transaction (Car Purchase)

arkane — Fri, 15 Dec 2017 21:25:12 GMT

@Kree wrote:
When I had a store I did not accept Amex for 2 reasons.
1. the price was too high, they charged double what Visa and MC did.
2. Amex merchant agreements are the pits. If a customer successfully proves merchandise is defective, I lose my money, and the customer gets to keep the item. There is no "refund at return" type of options.

Now I dealt with 15 dollar dvds, instead of 5000 dollar cars, but the agreement didn't specify price. Call up AMEX and ask if you get to keep the car, chances are they will say yes.

EDIT:
3. Amex chargebacks are binding, merchants agree not to arbitrate outside of AMEX system.

As a note, this is a decade ago, so things might have changed, but there is a good chance the car is yours.

Well hot dang now I want an Amex card

Re: Disputing Large Transaction (Car Purchase)

Anonymous — Sat, 16 Dec 2017 19:32:14 GMT

I would still double check with Amex and the merchant. Most credit card agreements have clauses that excludes motor vehicles, aircrafts, etc from certain benefits.

Auto Nation is a large company so it may take time for them to notice or take any kind of action.

Re: Disputing Large Transaction (Car Purchase)

trusty — Sat, 16 Dec 2017 20:02:57 GMT

One thing the OP can probably expect from a 5k charge-back however, is to be called up for financial review with Amex.

If the used dealer is a large corporation, they will likely want to have an internal investigation as to why they are committing fraud on customers... unless of course, the whole corporation is complicit, like with the repeated Wells Fargo fraud scandal. If however, the OP does decide to report this... do not expect anyone at that dealership to do anything, as they are all in cover-their-assets mode. Make sure to report it all the way up the chain, directly to corporate.

Other than that, might as well let sleeping dogs lie, until the next battle ensues. For there will always be another battle to be had. No need to rush it. Meantime, ride that lemon 'till the wheels fall off.

Re: Disputing Large Transaction (Car Purchase)

Anonymous — Sun, 17 Dec 2017 04:18:51 GMT

Possession is 9/10's of the law, at least according to lore. You have the title. You own the car. You have no criminal backlash to fear, only civil...and I'm guessing that dealer does NOT want to go there. Have all of the things fixed (it sounds as if you have done that), keep all receipts for repairs and the mechanic's name and contact info if possible - the one who pointed out all of the problems the car had that were disclosed by the dealer to be sound. I don't know your state's particular laws (some can be pretty weired as we all know) but I do know you should just fix up your car and enjoy it. The worst that can happen is you get notification from the dealer that you owe them money for the car... and THEN is the time to contact your state's Attorney General, the BBB and any other TLA ("three letter agency") to get them off your tail, and/or get an attorney to sue/countersue on your behalf for the grief, the time you spent with AmEx and the dealer, the money you spent just to have that dependable ride the dealer PROMISED you, etc., etc. It seems to me as if you've already spent enough of your valuable time (we're all born "terminal" with a FINITE number of hours on this Earth). Someone smarter than I might disagree and point out where I'm wrong (I frequently AM) but again, I say just enjoy your ride and thank you for pointing out the great benefit of using AmEx for these types of transactions...it's better than doubling one's manufacturer's warranty, IMHO.

EDITED TO ADD: AutoNation is a generally reputable corporation and I'm guessing this isn't the first time this shady dealer operating under their good network's decent reputation and the shady dealer in question won't be pursuing this matter with you because I'd be surprised if they're not already operating their franchise under a few red and/or yellow flags and don't need another one on their radar...just a guess though :-)