topic Re: Here's a squirrelly question... in General Credit Topics

Here's a squirrelly question...

Billharrell — Tue, 24 Jul 2018 00:15:17 GMT

I'll try to keep it brief.

I made a big purchase (over $1000 and under $3000) online from a large retailer using a charge card. The order was approved and I had an immediate pending charge on my card. Fast forward four days and the charge is still pending. The next day the item ships with charge still pending.

Two days later I get a notification from my cc company that they've denied a second charge for the same amount. I called the cc company and thanked them for not letting the online retailer double charge me for the same purchase. Immediately following, I contacted the seller and told them all of the above. They said that it was normal, no worries.

The next day, I recieved my item and my "pending" charge disappeared. There was now no charge for my item. I called again and told the retailer that I still hadn't been charged, and was told by the CSR that "everything's good on our end."

Fast forward 8 days, no charge. I get a voice mail from the retailer saying "it seems as though you have not paid for your item. If you don't pay by tomorrow you will be placed in our fraud file and may not be able to order from us again."

I haven't responded. Am I in any financial or legal danger? I'm annoyed by both their ineptitude and their aggressive voicemail. I told them twice about the error and was dismissed, now they accuse me of fraud? They have my cc number, why aren't they trying to run it again?

Avoiding the ethical question, am I legally obligated to pay at this point?

Re: Here's a squirrelly question...

rbentley — Tue, 24 Jul 2018 00:24:47 GMT

Yes you are legally, morally and ethically required to pay for goods and services which you requested and received. The fact that the seller may have been momentarily confused or misunderstood the state of the order does not excuse you from payment. The fact that you offered payment, tried to clear up the misunderstanding or that they could, in your eyes easily bill you, does not give you any excuse to take the goods without payment.

Re: Here's a squirrelly question...

Billharrell — Tue, 24 Jul 2018 00:34:34 GMT

I'm assuming that you're just trolling, as I asked about my legal position, and specifically requested we avoid the ethical questions involved.

If you actually do have some detailed legal expertise to contribute to the conversation I'd appreciate it.

Re: Here's a squirrelly question...

grower1 — Tue, 24 Jul 2018 01:03:29 GMT

Something similar happened to me with a Williams Sonoma order. In my case it happened because the item was backordered, so the payment authorization expired before they processed my payment, (even though I had received the item). They sent me an email letting me know that they had not been paid and I was able to call them and pay for my order over the phone. It was simple and fast, only took a few minutes to resolve.

Re: Here's a squirrelly question...

RobertEG — Wed, 25 Jul 2018 07:10:06 GMT

The Fair Credit Billing Act (FCBA) has a detailed and strong dispute process for dealing with any billing related issues on credit card purchases, but has a short period for filing of only 60 days from date of the billing error.

I would recommend that you consider filing a dispute under the FCBA, which then imposes strict requirements on the creditor.

Re: Here's a squirrelly question...

MakingProgress — Sat, 28 Jul 2018 15:57:31 GMT

@Billharrell wrote:
I'm assuming that you're just trolling, as I asked about my legal position, and specifically requested we avoid the ethical questions involved.

If you actually do have some detailed legal expertise to contribute to the conversation I'd appreciate it.

What bothers me is you don't want to be bothered with the ethical question.

Re: Here's a squirrelly question...

Anonymous — Sat, 28 Jul 2018 17:44:59 GMT

My opinion, do the right thing, pay what you owe or return the product. Trying to take advantage of the situation and not living up to your obligations will eventually catch up to you, legal or otherwise, I certainly wouldn't post about it on a public forum for the world to see.

Re: Here's a squirrelly question...

Pikaboo-icu — Sat, 28 Jul 2018 17:44:09 GMT

The GOLDEN RULE is always GOLDEN.

You can never go wrong when you do the RIGHT thing...

This is an open forum and while you can state you don't want to be troubled with the ethical/moral question, we are also just as free to address it anyway.

The fact you mentioned the moral dilemma tells me you already know the best course of action...

Have a grand day..

Re: Here's a squirrelly question...

Billharrell — Sat, 28 Jul 2018 18:05:36 GMT

Oh, brother. Nothing against the fine members if this forum, but it is not my "go to" site for ethics advice. I'll continue to rely on people I actually know for those questions.

The forum IS chock full of experts in credit laws and regulations, hence the specific question above.

Re: Here's a squirrelly question...

jamie123 — Sat, 28 Jul 2018 19:40:51 GMT

Well...Since you asked...

Yes, you are legally required to pay for that purchase. You ordered the product, the retailer shipped you the product and you received the product in good condition. If you don't pay for the product because of a misunderstanding in the initial method of payment it doesn't matter. You still need to pay for it or it can be and will be considered fraud/theft.

At the $1000 to $3000 product price point they will not let this rest. They won't forget about it. There are many attorneys that would be willing to fight for this money.

If you stole $1000 of product from a retail store by walking out of the store without paying, the dollar amount is large enough that you would be charged with a felony in most jurisdictions.

Re: Here's a squirrelly question...

RobertEG — Sat, 28 Jul 2018 23:28:25 GMT

The OP does have a legit question regarding legal obligation under the FCBA that is totally separate from the responses that point to moral obligations.

Did you ever make payment in response to the first billing that posted the charge to your account and set a due date?

Are you asserting that the first bill was essentially negated by a subsequent bill that stated there is no amount due?

In that event, you may be able to require sending of a new, corrected bill, and prevent any negative actions, including credit reporting, until your dispute process has been concluded.

You have the right to file a formal dispute with the creditor under section 161 of the Fair Credit Billing Act within 60 days of the billing error.

That then requires their response and treatment under the procedure set forth in section 161 of the FCBA.

You can assert no legal obligation to pay until you have received a corrected and accurate bill.

Re: Here's a squirrelly question...

JVille — Sat, 28 Jul 2018 23:55:07 GMT

You bought it, they shipped, you have it, you agreed to their terms and conditions at the time of purchase. Just because there was a book keeping error does not relieve you of the Legal obligation to pay for merchandise received.
They made an error and you can not legally benefit due to that error. In fact they discovered the error and rebilled your CC and your bank denied the charge due to your contact with them. So yes you owe the money. Does that answer your question?

Re: Here's a squirrelly question...

Billharrell — Sun, 29 Jul 2018 00:31:19 GMT

No, it doesn't. They attempted to double-bill me prior to any further contact on my end. The cc company declined the second billing on their own.

The comment above yours answer my question, though.

Re: Here's a squirrelly question...

Pikaboo-icu — Sun, 29 Jul 2018 00:31:53 GMT

OP seriously...

You placed an order, rather expensive.

They submitted the charge as pending until they shipped.

They likely mistakenly submitted a new charge rather than updating the pending charge.

Your CC blocked the second submission and the pending charge timed out.

Do YOU believe you're not legally obligated to pay?

You received goods, you ordered, you gotta pay up.

If they sent you goods you did not order, you have some legal ground to keep without returning.

Re: Here's a squirrelly question...

JVille — Sun, 29 Jul 2018 01:12:44 GMT

Gotta love it when it’s always someone else’s fault!

Re: Here's a squirrelly question...

Revelate — Sun, 29 Jul 2018 03:28:36 GMT

As you have alluded to, this site has credit experts.

We don't have legal ones, or if they are, they're here in an unofficial capacity and all that entails.

Even ignoring the ethical question, I think Jamie stated it correctly: this is unlikely to go away, and ultimately you are likely have to wind up paying for or returning the item... why go down the road of opening yourself up to legal challenge and what that entails both in the time domain as well as the financial one?

If you want real advice, go talk to a lawyer, this isn't a credit issue.

Re: Here's a squirrelly question...

Billharrell — Sun, 29 Jul 2018 20:53:09 GMT

Thanks, all. I've decided to request that they resubmit a bill/invoice via snail mail, and make the payment once that's in hand.

edit: Called in and talked to a CSR today, and that is agreeable to them. STILL showed as paid on her computer, though. I asked her not to attempt any runs on my CC but that I would pay via check once I recieved the bill.

Re: Here's a squirrelly question...

Anonymous — Sun, 29 Jul 2018 16:29:09 GMT

Good decision.