topic Re: AMERICAN EXPRESS Financial Review Article in SMART MONEY MAGAZINE in General Credit Topics

AMERICAN EXPRESS Financial Review Article in SMART MONEY MAGAZINE

Anonymous — Thu, 26 Jul 2007 18:01:30 GMT

http://www.smartmoney.com/consumer/index.cfm?story=20070726

hmmmm....pretty interesting!!

Re: AMERICAN EXPRESS Financial Review Article in SMART MONEY MAGAZINE

Anonymous — Thu, 26 Jul 2007 18:16:07 GMT

total BOLLUCKS!!!

but thanks for posting the article Flygirl

Re: AMERICAN EXPRESS Financial Review Article in SMART MONEY MAGAZINE

sl — Thu, 26 Jul 2007 18:27:23 GMT

Thanks for sharing that with us.

Re: AMERICAN EXPRESS Financial Review Article in SMART MONEY MAGAZINE

Anonymous — Thu, 26 Jul 2007 19:36:16 GMT

Thanks for sharing - unfortunate situations - but it makes me feel just a tad bit more relaxed that I am not the only one that has gone through a credit limit decrease.

Re: AMERICAN EXPRESS Financial Review Article in SMART MONEY MAGAZINE

Anonymous — Thu, 26 Jul 2007 21:28:28 GMT

these people are damned crooks....i am glad i told amex to go peck sh*t with the chickens when they tried to f/r me.

funny thing, they sent a letter telling me that it was "unfortunate" that i decided to close my accounts. no, **ckwipes, it is unfortunate that you gave me three credit cards and tossed a f/r at me one month later when i hadnt even used the cards, paid off the annual fee immediately, and my credit scores are higher than they were when you approved me. go to heII, amex.

Re: AMERICAN EXPRESS Financial Review Article in SMART MONEY MAGAZINE

Platinum25 — Fri, 27 Jul 2007 03:31:51 GMT

I'm curious to see if people on here would respond with how long they have had their AMEX accounts open before they were frozen for F/R. I've had my acct since Oct 2005 and wouldn't expect this to happen to me, especially since they have been giving me generous CLI's lately, but that article has me thinking that they could do it to any cardmember at any time. Thanks!

Re: AMERICAN EXPRESS Financial Review Article in SMART MONEY MAGAZINE

Anonymous — Fri, 27 Jul 2007 03:48:25 GMT

ChiTownTimmay wrote:
I'm curious to see if people on here would respond with how long they have had their AMEX accounts open before they were frozen for F/R. I've had my acct since Oct 2005 and wouldn't expect this to happen to me, especially since they have been giving me generous CLI's lately, but that article has me thinking that they could do it to any cardmember at any time. Thanks!

Not even a full month went by before my FR. Doesn't really matter....people that have had their accounts 15 years are getting the same behavior from amex.

Re: AMERICAN EXPRESS Financial Review Article in SMART MONEY MAGAZINE

Anonymous — Fri, 27 Jul 2007 04:49:37 GMT

This article isnt just about AMEX but about all credit card companies.

"If past is prologue, credit-limit decreases — and American Express is not the only credit-card company doing this — is a reaction to what creditors perceive as increased risk of defaults"

If you read the article Mr Sak had 3 personnel cards (and 6 business) with AMEX, one of which was his Blue Cash with a limit of $21K. It also says his average balance with all his cards was $15K. So lets just say $21K for the blue and two others with $12K each limit. Then it mentions how his credit score took a hit by 40 pts dropping it to 640.

So he either had a higher score in the 700s that took a hit from inquiries, utilization, new lines of credit, or whatever that dropped it to the 680 or he had a lower score which he improved to achieve the 680. I understand that the 680 has no way to see how much his HHI is and he could be making 6 figures but just had a bad past which lowered his score. There are soooo many factors that could be put into play on his score.

Either way, i doubt he was approved for those high lines of credit right off the start. So you can request a CLI once every 30 days with AMEX. That is 1 time per all of your accounts per 30 days. So, lets just say he had his accounts for a little while and through this time he asks for a CLI every month and is approved, everytime.

He keeps hitting the LUV button and the computer looks at his 680 and goes sure approved. Then a "human" employee looks at this $45K CL and his 680 score and is like, ok maybe we should check on this.

So, by this scenerio this F/R could have easily been done due to a lower score applying for too much credit, even if his HHI supports it. All AMEX is doing is saying, DANG! you have a lot of credit, your score is good but to support this kind of credit we would like to see proof of your HHI.

"All accounts were temporarily frozen and AmEx requested documentation proving his income: pay stubs, bank statements or a completed IRS form 4056-T"

Yes, i know, they shouldnt have approved the CLI in the first place but how hard is it really to just send them a pay stub and have your account back on line in a week or two?

Sorry i am long winded, but i am currently in Iraq and very bored at the moment so decided to try to take a different look at the situation, instead of just yelling at AMEX and their F/Rs.

And, i do have a AMEX Blue Cash with a $12K limit. If they F/R me, i will be upset about it, but i have the documentation easily at hand and will get it to them and have my card back online quickly enough. I can honestly say their customer service is so good, that i can put up with a 1 time F/R and have a lifetime of good service.

Ok, i need to get some work done, i am not going to proof read what i wrote hah, i will check back later!

<3 to the forums!

Re: AMERICAN EXPRESS Financial Review Article in SMART MONEY MAGAZINE

fused — Fri, 27 Jul 2007 05:35:30 GMT

Robo wrote:
This article isnt just about AMEX but about all credit card companies.

"If past is prologue, credit-limit decreases — and American Express is not the only credit-card company doing this — is a reaction to what creditors perceive as increased risk of defaults"

If you read the article Mr Sak had 3 personnel cards (and 6 business) with AMEX, one of which was his Blue Cash with a limit of $21K. It also says his average balance with all his cards was $15K. So lets just say $21K for the blue and two others with $12K each limit. Then it mentions how his credit score took a hit by 40 pts dropping it to 640.

So he either had a higher score in the 700s that took a hit from inquiries, utilization, new lines of credit, or whatever that dropped it to the 680 or he had a lower score which he improved to achieve the 680. I understand that the 680 has no way to see how much his HHI is and he could be making 6 figures but just had a bad past which lowered his score. There are soooo many factors that could be put into play on his score.

Either way, i doubt he was approved for those high lines of credit right off the start. So you can request a CLI once every 30 days with AMEX. That is 1 time per all of your accounts per 30 days. So, lets just say he had his accounts for a little while and through this time he asks for a CLI every month and is approved, everytime.

He keeps hitting the LUV button and the computer looks at his 680 and goes sure approved. Then a "human" employee looks at this $45K CL and his 680 score and is like, ok maybe we should check on this.

So, by this scenerio this F/R could have easily been done due to a lower score applying for too much credit, even if his HHI supports it. All AMEX is doing is saying, DANG! you have a lot of credit, your score is good but to support this kind of credit we would like to see proof of your HHI.

"All accounts were temporarily frozen and AmEx requested documentation proving his income: pay stubs, bank statements or a completed IRS form 4056-T"

Yes, i know, they shouldnt have approved the CLI in the first place but how hard is it really to just send them a pay stub and have your account back on line in a week or two?

Sorry i am long winded, but i am currently in Iraq and very bored at the moment so decided to try to take a different look at the situation, instead of just yelling at AMEX and their F/Rs.

And, i do have a AMEX Blue Cash with a $12K limit. If they F/R me, i will be upset about it, but i have the documentation easily at hand and will get it to them and have my card back online quickly enough. I can honestly say their customer service is so good, that i can put up with a 1 time F/R and have a lifetime of good service.

Ok, i need to get some work done, i am not going to proof read what i wrote hah, i will check back later!

<3 to the forums!

Excellent post!

Re: AMERICAN EXPRESS Financial Review Article in SMART MONEY MAGAZINE

Anonymous — Fri, 27 Jul 2007 05:48:36 GMT

WoW!!! Thanks alot. Who knew they could do something like that?!!

Re: AMERICAN EXPRESS Financial Review Article in SMART MONEY MAGAZINE

fused — Fri, 27 Jul 2007 05:55:03 GMT

MsRN2000 wrote:
WoW!!! Thanks alot. Who knew they could do something like that?!!

Looking at your username and avatar, you must be in the miserable industry we call healthcare!

Re: AMERICAN EXPRESS Financial Review Article in SMART MONEY MAGAZINE

Jontevius — Fri, 27 Jul 2007 06:52:41 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
This article isnt just about AMEX but about all credit card companies.
"If past is prologue, credit-limit decreases — and American Express is not the only credit-card company doing this — is a reaction to what creditors perceive as increased risk of defaults"
If you read the article Mr Sak had 3 personnel cards (and 6 business) with AMEX, one of which was his Blue Cash with a limit of $21K. It also says his average balance with all his cards was $15K. So lets just say $21K for the blue and two others with $12K each limit. Then it mentions how his credit score took a hit by 40 pts dropping it to 640.
So he either had a higher score in the 700s that took a hit from inquiries, utilization, new lines of credit, or whatever that dropped it to the 680 or he had a lower score which he improved to achieve the 680. I understand that the 680 has no way to see how much his HHI is and he could be making 6 figures but just had a bad past which lowered his score. There are soooo many factors that could be put into play on his score.
Either way, i doubt he was approved for those high lines of credit right off the start. So you can request a CLI once every 30 days with AMEX. That is 1 time per all of your accounts per 30 days. So, lets just say he had his accounts for a little while and through this time he asks for a CLI every month and is approved, everytime.
He keeps hitting the LUV button and the computer looks at his 680 and goes sure approved. Then a "human" employee looks at this $45K CL and his 680 score and is like, ok maybe we should check on this.

So, by this scenerio this F/R could have easily been done due to a lower score applying for too much credit, even if his HHI supports it. All AMEX is doing is saying, DANG! you have a lot of credit, your score is good but to support this kind of credit we would like to see proof of your HHI.
"All accounts were temporarily frozen and AmEx requested documentation proving his income: pay stubs, bank statements or a completed IRS form 4056-T"
Yes, i know, they shouldnt have approved the CLI in the first place but how hard is it really to just send them a pay stub and have your account back on line in a week or two?
Sorry i am long winded, but i am currently in Iraq and very bored at the moment so decided to try to take a different look at the situation, instead of just yelling at AMEX and their F/Rs.

And, i do have a AMEX Blue Cash with a $12K limit. If they F/R me, i will be upset about it, but i have the documentation easily at hand and will get it to them and have my card back online quickly enough. I can honestly say their customer service is so good, that i can put up with a 1 time F/R and have a lifetime of good service.
Ok, i need to get some work done, i am not going to proof read what i wrote hah, i will check back later!
3 to the forums!

Nice post but a lot of your "facts" are based off generalizations or "scenarios that probably didn't take place" like for instance how you guessed at what Mr. Sak's Utilizations were on each card. I don't feel the issue customers have is with providing proof of income to AMEX or any other credit card company. But the issue is having an account Frozen without immediate notification. How would you feel going to make a purchase, and your credit card was declined, not because you were over the limit or just didn't have the funds available, but because there is a freeze on the account. It's embarrassing of course. Now I too have an AMEX Card, but I haven't endured the frustration of a F/R but I can feel the emotional stress from the customers that had to experience this. I also realize that this article isn't just about AMEX, but it seems to me, most of the complaints I've seen across the message boards when it comes to F/Rs it's AMEX. Now if w/ere talking credit line decreases, I've heard of other Credit Card Companies doing so, but my main focus is the F/R. Great customer care goes far beyond the extent of "We thank for choosing American Express for your business and personal needs" Can we say, PROTECT THE CUSTOMER AS WELL. How about a phone call for IMMEDIATE notification or even use the Secure Message center with the online banking feature to inform you right then and there, your account is temporarily disabled, that's something I would appreciate. Oh yes one more thing you said I found intriguing, Robo "I can honestly say their customer service is so good, that i can put up with a 1 time F/R and have a lifetime " I'll say this and you can do your own research. Credit Card Companies mandate F/Rs as often and as much as they deem is necessary, so don't think for once that its only a one time experience. I'm in Iraq also. 25th ID Tropic Lightning Band

Re: AMERICAN EXPRESS Financial Review Article in SMART MONEY MAGAZINE

Anonymous — Fri, 27 Jul 2007 07:07:11 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
If they F/R me, i will be upset about it, but i have the documentation easily at hand and will get it to them and have my card back online quickly enough. I can honestly say their customer service is so good, that i can put up with a 1 time F/R and have a lifetime of good service.

You might get your account reopened, but it is extremely doubtful Amex will be quick about it. Then again, Amex might decide to treat you like another F/R victim who faxed his information promptly but had his account closed anyway, because Amex claimed "he had not responded to the request for documents" - when actually Amex had lost or misfiled the fax (which seems to happen quite often). When the customer offered to provide proof of the date and time his fax went through, Amex decided to make up another "reason" to close his account. And as for the "1 time F/R", you might want to read the stories around the credit forums from a number of customers who have been F/R'd 2 and 3 times in less than a year.

Also, the LUV button does not have a mind of its own - customers do not always get approved, and I'm sure the button is programmable to deny a CLI to any account Amex chooses. When the customer submits their application - including income information - and is approved, Amex can set whatever maximum they want for that customer's CL, and the LUV button will deny further CLI requests. And it's not like they are unaware of their customers' overall credit status - Amex religiously does soft inquiries for A/R purposes monthly, so a customer's CL could be capped, or new applications denied, at any time. However, unlike most other CCCs, Amex chooses to do almost no front-end screening or account maintenance, preferring the far more invasive and inconvenient F/R tactic.

Yes, the SmartMoney story was not only about Amex, but then SmartMoney is not exactly where you're going to find no-holds-barred investigative journalism. The story tried to use a variety of examples to make the point that everyone should be aware of these "surprises" no matter what cards they hold. However, the Amex F/R stories posted on the various credit forums are far more numerous and more bizarre than complaints against just about any other CCC, and could fill an entire issue of SmartMoney, not just one page.

Re: AMERICAN EXPRESS Financial Review Article in SMART MONEY MAGAZINE

Jontevius — Fri, 27 Jul 2007 07:34:57 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
@Anonymous wrote:
If they F/R me, i will be upset about it, but i have the documentation easily at hand and will get it to them and have my card back online quickly enough. I can honestly say their customer service is so good, that i can put up with a 1 time F/R and have a lifetime of good service.

You might get your account reopened, but it is extremely doubtful Amex will be quick about it. Then again, Amex might decide to treat you like another F/R victim who faxed his information promptly but had his account closed anyway, because Amex claimed "he had not responded to the request for documents" - when actually Amex had lost or misfiled the fax (which seems to happen quite often). When the customer offered to provide proof of the date and time his fax went through, Amex decided to make up another "reason" to close his account. And as for the "1 time F/R", you might want to read the stories around the credit forums from a number of customers who have been F/R'd 2 and 3 times in less than a year.

Also, the LUV button does not have a mind of its own - customers do not always get approved, and I'm sure the button is programmable to deny a CLI to any account Amex chooses. When the customer submits their application - including income information - and is approved, Amex can set whatever maximum they want for that customer's CL, and the LUV button will deny further CLI requests. And it's not like they are unaware of their customers' overall credit status - Amex religiously does soft inquiries for A/R purposes monthly, so a customer's CL could be capped, or new applications denied, at any time. However, unlike most other CCCs, Amex chooses to do almost no front-end screening or account maintenance, preferring the far more invasive and inconvenient F/R tactic.

Yes, the SmartMoney story was not only about Amex, but then SmartMoney is not exactly where you're going to find no-holds-barred investigative journalism. The story tried to use a variety of examples to make the point that everyone should be aware of these "surprises" no matter what cards they hold. However, the Amex F/R stories posted on the various credit forums are far more numerous and more bizarre than complaints against just about any other CCC, and could fill an entire issue of SmartMoney, not just one page.

lol, nice post Revike.

Re: AMERICAN EXPRESS Financial Review Article in SMART MONEY MAGAZINE

Anonymous — Fri, 27 Jul 2007 15:12:43 GMT

Hey guys, I am an new AMEX customer and have not yet been F/R'ed. I don't have a big opinion on the ethics of it either way at this point, but I would like to suggest something that might trigger it:

If AMEX does "soft pulls" on your credit report to check up on you from time to time, then we can assume that Amex keeps a log of your credit scores from the day you signed on periodically to the present day. I do not mean to say Amex soft pulls your score every week or something, but they must be watching occasionally.

If they are doing periodic soft credit pulls and they notice your score is dropping overall, ovetime then that must raise red flags for them. Additionally, if you hit the "luv" button and it does a soft credit pull and it shows your score is lower then when you last hit the button, that must also send off red flags.

I can see a number of things send of flags--applying for 3 cards at once or something--I had a hunch that about a month ago when everyone applied for Amex Delta Skymiles, and was advised to also try for Hilton honors, Starwoods, and also request CLI's, this all must have sent up flags within AMEX. Think about it--You get a load of people just barely meeting their credit requirements applying for multiple cards in a short time period.

And what about established AMEX customers? Well, it's possible to be established and pay on time, but also to have way too high utilization, or have many inquiries in a short time. It's also possible to get flags put up when you make big purchases you would not normall make.

This is all educated speculation. I can't claim anything here complete fact. But maybe

Re: AMERICAN EXPRESS Financial Review Article in SMART MONEY MAGAZINE

Anonymous — Fri, 27 Jul 2007 15:15:42 GMT

fused111 wrote:

MsRN2000 wrote:
WoW!!! Thanks alot. Who knew they could do something like that?!!

Looking at your username and avatar, you must be in the miserable industry we call healthcare!

Healthcare is where all the BEST talent is...

Rob

Re: AMERICAN EXPRESS Financial Review Article in SMART MONEY MAGAZINE

Anonymous — Fri, 27 Jul 2007 15:26:18 GMT

I'll say that I've been a corporate card holder for MANY years... And I'm a NEW personal account holder under FR status right now.

On my Experian printed copies AMEX has reviewed my profile EVERY MONTH FOR THE LAST 2 YEARS! As a result of the Company Card that I carry. Even though I didn't have a reported TL from them.

I don't believe that the soft pulls trigger F/R. I'm starting to think it is a purely random process.

While it is coincidence that myself and others are facing FR at the beginning of our relationships and we did request CLIs at activation and apply for multiple accounts in a very short period - I know of one person that did the same thing we have done and has NOT been subject to the same process.

MY WIFE!

We got our cards at the same time, she has much higher scores than I do, and received Blue Cash, Skymiles, Sky Points, HH. Total CL of $29k She reported our HHI accurately and we file jointly with the IRS every year. She requested and received CLI on ALL accounts except for HH at activation or soon after.

IMHO those of us that are being FRd are just unlucky and we happened to be a part of the sampling of new card holders that were selected for the process.

Rob

Re: AMERICAN EXPRESS Financial Review Article in SMART MONEY MAGAZINE

Anonymous — Fri, 27 Jul 2007 16:08:15 GMT

"While it is coincidence that myself and others are facing FR at the beginning of our relationships and we did request CLIs at activation and apply for multiple accounts in a very short period - I know of one person that did the same thing we have done and has NOT been subject to the same process.
MY WIFE! "

We got our cards at the same time, she has much higher scores than I do"

So--do you think they have a ratio of CL VS FICO? Like, if you have a 650 fico, you shouldn't have more then 5K crdit? If you have 700, you shouldn't have more then $15K, and if your fico goes down with higher limits then you get F/Red?

There has to be a formula at work here--I don't believe it's just random

You just said--"my wife has much higher scores then I do" and she was not F/R'ed. Makes sense to me--if your scores are falling or not that great it makes sense AMEX might FR you. It's a consistent variable here.

And you know what? We FICOHOLICS here can monitor what causes it--we can pull copies of our credit from truecrdit every day and get (hopefully) Scorewatch alerts. I know I guard my credit now like it's a precious treasure.

Message Edited by rifleman on 07-27-2007 09:08 AM

Re: AMERICAN EXPRESS Financial Review Article in SMART MONEY MAGAZINE

Anonymous — Fri, 27 Jul 2007 16:10:41 GMT

There can't be much of a formula as you've suggested. You have to remember that you can only get so high with your Fico score, and then keep in mind that there are people out there with thousands and thousands of dollars for CL's. I'm sure that you're correct, that they do in fact have some sort of system that is helping them pick out specific people first, but all in all they could potentially start an F/R on anybody they decide to... even at random if they choose!

IMHO I don't see a problem with them requesting these items for F/R... and as the consumer I agree that you have every right to tell them to shove it and turn your business elsewhere. It's unfortunate that a lot of good customers that have grown accustomed to the level of service and ease of use of AMEX for many years may suffer... but when it really comes down to, AMEX is putting their butts on the line by extending credit to consumers... with scores/history Good, Bad, or Unknown... If you were them can you really say that you would never do a review of the financial positions of the people that you are lending money to.

Now don't jump all over me, I'm new to all of this, and these boards... Just chipping in my two cents on it all...

BTW I was recently approved for Delta Gold Skymiles w/2K CL, with only an EX 606... So I am fully expecting an F/R request...

Re: AMERICAN EXPRESS Financial Review Article in SMART MONEY MAGAZINE

Anonymous — Fri, 27 Jul 2007 16:17:43 GMT

right, I'm sure there's a formula at work here, but I'm also sure they have disgression to F/R whomever they want whenever they want. I tend to lean more to a formula being the reason--I don't think AMEX Execs sit around randomly picking papers out of a hat saying "Yeah! lets F/R this guy!" Then they log onto Fico forums and have a good laugh
when they see all these people getting pissed off.

I do believe a formula is more of the case--and if I ever get F/Red, I will probably comply, but I will also ask them why, and if they don't tell me I will ask to speak to as many higher-ups as possible until I find out what triggered it. I'm sure it has something to do with credit scoring--whether its FICO, VANTAGE, PLUS or whatever scoring model they use...