topic Re: Odd U/W request in Mortgage Loans

Odd U/W request

basballguy — Thu, 05 Dec 2013 16:35:02 GMT

I'm doing a USDA Guaranteed loan and the lender is asking for tax transcripts of my fiance who is not on the loan. I've already sourced her current income. I don't know that I'm comfortable with providing them this info. And FWIW, she made maybe 1000 dollars in 2012.

I can't find anywhere on USDA's site where they require this info. Thoughts?

Re: Odd U/W request

StartingOver10 — Thu, 05 Dec 2013 20:35:49 GMT

Are you in a community property state?

Re: Odd U/W request

Anonymous — Thu, 05 Dec 2013 20:56:49 GMT

USDA is an income based loan. If your fiancee is going to be living there, it is fair for them to ask. During my UW for USDA I had to write a letter listing all the people that would be living in the house and their ages.

Re: Odd U/W request

basballguy — Thu, 05 Dec 2013 22:16:40 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
USDA is an income based loan. If your fiancee is going to be living there, it is fair for them to ask. During my UW for USDA I had to write a letter listing all the people that would be living in the house and their ages.

It's for for them to ask, never disputed that.

I don't agree it's fair for them to say prove it. We're not underwriting her...she's not on the loan.

Re: Odd U/W request

Peter1142 — Thu, 05 Dec 2013 22:20:46 GMT

They base USDA program eligibility on household income. Not DTI eligibility, USDA eligibility that you are under the maximum income for your area. She counts towards that whether she is on the loan or not.

Re: Odd U/W request

basballguy — Thu, 05 Dec 2013 22:50:00 GMT

@Peter1142 wrote:
They base USDA program eligibility on household income. Not DTI eligibility, USDA eligibility that you are under the maximum income for your area. She counts towards that whether she is on the loan or not.

I'm very well aware how USDA works. I don't need an education on the program requirements.

I need a education on the lender requirng an extra burden of proof for income (or in this case lackthereof). Her SSN is nobody's business. She's not on the loan, she's not on the title. I've provided documented proof of her income already. (child support statements/court order in this case). . I have problems with this request for two reasons

1) Her SSN is none of their business...which i've stated

2) How much she made in 2012 does not have any bearing if she's been unemployed for over a year. She could've made 100k/week and it wouldn't matter.

Re: Odd U/W request

DallasLoanGuy — Thu, 05 Dec 2013 23:04:08 GMT

@basballguy wrote:
@Anonymous wrote:
USDA is an income based loan. If your fiancee is going to be living there, it is fair for them to ask. During my UW for USDA I had to write a letter listing all the people that would be living in the house and their ages.
It's for for them to ask, never disputed that.

I don't agree it's fair for them to say prove it. We're not underwriting her...she's not on the loan.

but they are underwriting the households eligibility(a usda requirement).... she is part of household.

Re: Odd U/W request

basballguy — Fri, 06 Dec 2013 04:13:38 GMT

@DallasLoanGuy wrote:
@basballguy wrote:
@Anonymous wrote:
USDA is an income based loan. If your fiancee is going to be living there, it is fair for them to ask. During my UW for USDA I had to write a letter listing all the people that would be living in the house and their ages.
It's for for them to ask, never disputed that.

I don't agree it's fair for them to say prove it. We're not underwriting her...she's not on the loan.
but they are underwriting the households eligibility(a usda requirement).... she is part of household.

it's a flawed request for two reasons. 1) tax record for the 2012 year doesn't prove she's NOT working right now. 2) Regardless of what that tax record says, it doesn't count towards current income.

If i say "so and so is unemployed" you don't say "prove it by showing my last year's tax records"

Lost in all this is I reported her supplemental income and sourced it officially.

We ended up allowing them to get the transcripts, but IMO, it was an unncessary request from an U/W that doesn't know how to use common sense. We can't just blindly provide documents and authorizations simply because someone "thinks" they need it.

Re: Odd U/W request

DallasLoanGuy — Fri, 06 Dec 2013 05:09:35 GMT

@basballguy wrote:

it's a flawed request for two reasons. 1) tax record for the 2012 year doesn't prove she's NOT working right now. returns dont have to prove anything.... but they can sniff out liars.... the u/w is fishing.... maybe they fish up some employer filings of income not disclosed... then what? just believe the borrower? borrowers lie sometimes, and we have PROOF of that in this very forum of people willingly committing FRAUD with zero regard for the very people who put their professional license on the line for that loan.
2) Regardless of what that tax record says, it doesn't count towards current income.

If i say "so and so is unemployed" you don't say "prove it by showing my last year's tax records"   yes, the lender DOES say 'prove it'... just like ANY other document in the process. if you 'say' that you have $10K in the bank.... do we just take your word? no.... we say PROVE IT!!!!!

Lost in all this is I reported her supplemental income and sourced it officially.   ok? idk.... doesnt make sense since this hasnt been part of this convo

We ended up allowing them to get the transcripts, but IMO, it was an unncessary request from an U/W that doesn't know how to use common sense. We can't just blindly provide documents and authorizations simply because someone "thinks" they need it. the u/w has their reputation on the line... they dont sign off on things without documentation... and they dont care that you are offended.... it is THEIR JOB on the line... and YOUR LOAN isnt worth THEIR JOB.....   I have personally denied loans for situations that i was uncomfortable with.... smelled some fraud, borrower was elusive with some info.... ect, ect, ect.... MY license isn't worth one deal.... if i need to document something, i document it.... and that includes the gf who lives in the HOUSEHOLD....

guidelines dont let me look over documentation when the borrower is offended.

The Golden Rule = He who has the gold.... makes the rules. and the guy with the gold is the bank willing to fund your 100% financing loan.

I know... It sucks... and if i wasn't in the business myself, i might feel the same way as you do now.

but i AM IN THE BIZ.... and i have seen crazy stuff.... and that crazy stuff from the people who came before you is the reason you are experiencing this examination.... all of the fraudsters who dont care about my license.... all of those people who think they can get around guidelines.... all of those scumbags who lied about their 'household income''... that came BEFORE YOU.... well, THEY are why you are experiencing this microscope up the butt examination that you are getting.... NOT the lender being unreasonable!!!

Re: Odd U/W request

basballguy — Fri, 06 Dec 2013 19:27:58 GMT

I get what you're saying and understand what the otherside of the fence says...but if I say she is unemployed full time student who collects child support, then source the child support to be safe...then what is the value in seeing her 2012 tax transcript? I never said she didn't work in 2012. She worked for maybe two months. It just doesn't make sense. I told them she doesn't work but still has a source of income...proved the source of income at their request.

How exactly do you prove unemployment? I must be missing something.

Re: Odd U/W request

basballguy — Fri, 06 Dec 2013 20:20:10 GMT

For the record, just trying to better understand. I thought I had cleaned up everything to the point where (in my mind) this was going to be an easy loan process. mid score 700+, no lates, no PR, no collections, great employment history, etc etc etc. I filled out the loan app on 11/2 and I'm still at Underwriting....just been very frustrating. Hell, my original contract was signed in April and I thought I'd be moved in almost 2 months ago.

Re: Odd U/W request

DallasLoanGuy — Fri, 06 Dec 2013 21:56:54 GMT

@basballguy wrote:
I get what you're saying and understand what the otherside of the fence says...but if I say she is unemployed full time student who collects child support, then source the child support to be safe...then what is the value in seeing her 2012 tax transcript? to see if you lied.... I never said she didn't work in 2012. She worked for maybe two months. It just doesn't make sense. I told them she doesn't work but still has a source of income...proved the source of income at their request.

How exactly do you prove unemployment? you dont.... the lender just tries to find income, and if they cant, THEN they believe you I must be missing something.

Re: Odd U/W request

DallasLoanGuy — Fri, 06 Dec 2013 21:57:58 GMT

@basballguy wrote:
For the record, just trying to better understand. I thought I had cleaned up everything to the point where (in my mind) this was going to be an easy loan process. mid score 700+, no lates, no PR, no collections, great employment history, etc etc etc. I filled out the loan app on 11/2 and I'm still at Underwriting....just been very frustrating. Hell, my original contract was signed in April and I thought I'd be moved in almost 2 months ago.

wow. what is taking so long? 30 days is the max amount of time it should take to close and fund.

Re: Odd U/W request

MrChairman — Sun, 08 Dec 2013 05:17:41 GMT

This is simple to answer. Lenders can add any additional overlays that they want but this is basic verification of the USDA loan. If you don't like it then don't apply for a mortgage. Sounds to me like you're attempting to hide something since you're so adamant about USDA not knowing anything about your g/f.

Re: Odd U/W request

StartingOver10 — Sun, 08 Dec 2013 16:35:37 GMT

Baseball guy, if you don't want to show your girlfriends' info, just change the loan type for which you are applying to something else. USDA is the only one that has that HH income requirement (unless you go for one of the subsidy loans for first time homebuyers and they also have HH income maximum's).

If you go FHA or VA or conventional - they don't check the household income at all. They check the income from the borrowers. If you are in a community property state and married, then they will check the spouses debt - but that doesn't apply to you here since you aren't married.

Re: Odd U/W request

Anonymous — Mon, 09 Dec 2013 21:16:41 GMT

Yeah, on this board alone you see posts all the time from people who are perfectly willing to commit what amounts to mortgage fraud just to try and get a home - with no regard for the job or careers of the people they're trying to get something past. How many people have posted that they're not going to disclose their Bill Me Later account because it doesn't appear on a credit report and the underwriter didn't notice the payment every month on the bank statements?

On the other hand, I think it's a good idea to occasionally question what kinds of documents are being asked for...and what information may be indirectly exposed while fulfilling these requests.

Re: Odd U/W request

basballguy — Mon, 09 Dec 2013 21:59:08 GMT

@MrChairman wrote:
This is simple to answer. Lenders can add any additional overlays that they want but this is basic verification of the USDA loan. If you don't like it then don't apply for a mortgage. Sounds to me like you're attempting to hide something since you're so adamant about USDA not knowing anything about your g/f.

Except that I complied with all their requests.....I don't have to like it.

I'm obviously a stickler about providing personal data. I feel it's not necessary in this case...there are obviously others who feel the opposite. If you're trying to guess my intent due to my discontent, then you have too much free time on your hands.

Do me a favor and don't reply to any more of my threads, thanks.

As a follow up, lender finally approved everything and submitted to USDA today.

Re: Odd U/W request

basballguy — Mon, 09 Dec 2013 22:05:05 GMT

@StartingOver10 wrote:
Baseball guy, if you don't want to show your girlfriends' info, just change the loan type for which you are applying to something else. USDA is the only one that has that HH income requirement (unless you go for one of the subsidy loans for first time homebuyers and they also have HH income maximum's).

If you go FHA or VA or conventional - they don't check the household income at all. They check the income from the borrowers. If you are in a community property state and married, then they will check the spouses debt - but that doesn't apply to you here since you aren't married.

Right and I understood from the beginning USDA weighs heavily on household income and wouldn't have applied if I didn't qualify. The only problem I had was after validating her only source of income (child support), they requested personal data for a scenario that didn't make sense to me (Please for the love of god don't argue that it makes sense to you, i don't care).

We live in a society where every business wants as much personal data as possible on you. I don't provide my SSN to doctors, utilities, etc....I don't provide my DL # to anyone unless warranted. That's just how I feel. Some of you may be a bit more carefree with your info, but I'm not.

Re: Odd U/W request

MrChairman — Mon, 09 Dec 2013 22:22:05 GMT

You're apply for a mortgage and don't want to provide personal information?! LOL, Good luck with that. Just think if you were loaning someone hundreds of thousands of dollars, wouldn't you like to know with absolute certainty that you have done all of the due diligence as you possibly could? If you think just asking for verification of salary is a violation, just wait until underwriting gets a hold of you and you will find out the true meaning of invasion of privacy. This board is for people who have already been through the process to help others who are going through the mortgage process. It seems as though you don't want any help and have any answer for everything. Which in that case, you don't need the board, you have all the answers.

Re: Odd U/W request

basballguy — Tue, 10 Dec 2013 03:26:49 GMT

@MrChairman wrote:
You're apply for a mortgage and don't want to provide personal information?! LOL, Good luck with that. Just think if you were loaning someone hundreds of thousands of dollars, wouldn't you like to know with absolute certainty that you have done all of the due diligence as you possibly could? If you think just asking for verification of salary is a violation, just wait until underwriting gets a hold of you and you will find out the true meaning of invasion of privacy. This board is for people who have already been through the process to help others who are going through the mortgage process. It seems as though you don't want any help and have any answer for everything. Which in that case, you don't need the board, you have all the answers.

Your inability to execute basic reading comprehension is beyond me. Stop looking for ways to be a troll. If you want to contribute to the conversation in a constructive way, fantastic, it's appreciated....otherwise Edited to remove unnecessary acronym and go somewhere else.