topic Re: PFD Q&A, Examples, and PFD Success Stories in Rebuilding Your Credit

PFD Q&A, Examples, and PFD Success Stories

llecs — Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:11:39 GMT

Chances are if you are reading this you had an unpaid bad debt or collection report at some point in time. It's happened to the best of us. But we all want to take care of our debts and what better way to rebuild our credit than to pay it off while focusing on repair. Enter the PFD letter. It's a letter asking the creditor to delete in exchange for a payoff. The letter spells out your terms for deletion and asks the creditor to acknowledge the terms in writing in exchange for a payment and that upon receipt of payment they agree to delete. It helps your overall credit picture and takes care of a bad debt at the same time.

Q&A:

What are PFD letters?

PFD (aka Pay For Delete) letters are letters offering to pay an outstanding debt in exchange for a deletion from your credit report(s).

Who are PFD letters for?

PFD letters are intended only for unpaid debts held by collection agencies or charged-off original creditors.

What's in a PFD letter?

A PFD letter basically asks the collection agency or original creditor to delete the entire account in exchange for paying it. It asks them to acknowledge the terms of the PFD in writing and upon receipt of their acknowledgement that they'll delete in exchange for a payment, the debtor would pay it and then the creditor would delete.

Why should I send a PFD letter?

A collection agency or charge-off reporting can hurt your credit for as long as it reports. A deletion could possibly help your FICO, prevent future credit damage, help your standing with future creditors, and satisfy an unpaid debt.

How should I send a PFD letter and whom shall it be addressed to?

PFD letters are intended to be in writing. It's recommended you start via snail mail, but never discount e-mail, faxing it, sending through a creditor's secured message service, or using a 3rd-party service like Planetfeedback.com. Some in here have posted success by calling in a PFD. The danger to that is that the creditor might agree to delete if you pay them over the phone, but in some examples in here, the creditor never deleted despite a promise otherwise.

How much should I offer within the PFD?

That's totally up to you. Some original creditors and collection agencies won't accept anything less than 100% owed. Some will accept pennies on the dollar as a settlement. If you were to offer 100% owed then there never would be any second guessing if they deny the PFD offer. Conversely, if you start too low and they denied the offer, then you will have to back-track your settlement offers hoping they will accept the next offer. Also if you accept an offer less than 100%, then legally the creditor has to issue you a 1099-C for the settled different. Per IRS rules, that savings is considered income and gets reported by the creditor if over $600.

Do I need to do any follow-up if my PFD is accepted?

If your PFD is accepted, then you would want to send certified funds like a cashier's check or money order to the creditor along with a copy of their accepting letter to you acknowledging the terms to the PFD. After they receive the funds and letter, then wait. Keep an eye on your credit reports on an ongoing basis. Give them about 30-45 days as many creditors only update monthly. After that time then certainly contact them about your arrangement.

What are the odds of success?

0% if you don't send any. Every creditor is different. Some never accept PFDs. Some do. It's a numbers game. Certainly read in these forums for similar success stories. But also read about GW success stories too. While some might be down on PFDs, some of the same creditors might accept GWs. It might take 10-20-50-100 PFDs before you get a "yes".

I sent a PFD, but they told me it was illegal to delete. Is it illegal?

Per the Fair Credit Reporting Act, creditors must report correctly. However, nothing in the law precludes a creditor from deleting early if they wanted to. Unfortunately some original creditors or collection agencies will use the FCRA as an excuse to explain why it is illegal for them to delete. It's not illegal and keep trying if they tell you that.

Is there any risk in sending PFD letters?

There is risk in sending PFD letters and you should be aware and acknowledge these risks:

1) Every state has their own statute of limitations for an unpaid debt. That SOL varies anywhere from 3 to 15 years depending on the debt type and where you live. SOL is the time frame a creditor has to sue for an unpaid debt. There are some stories in here of posters trying over and over with a PFD only to be rejected and then sued for the full amount. Never ever offer a PFD while inside SOL -IF- you don't have 100% of the money saved up to pay in full if you had to. You can always offer less, but you wouldn't want them to reject the PFD offer and sue for 100% instead. If you have all of it saved, then you can always pay it to avert a judgment.

2) It's not too common you have PFD success the first try. Sometimes it'll take months or even years in PFD attempts. Unfortunately as time lapses the original creditor can add lates each and every month and the creditor can tack on interest to the unpaid balance.

3) While it may sound great to delete a charge-off from your credit reports, it's not always a good thing. If you have an old charge-off that is among your oldest accounts or older than your average age of accounts, then removing it could result in a drop in your FICO score. This isn't always the case, but it depends on how it reports in relation to your overall credit.

4) Some creditors don't report to all 3 reports. Sometimes only one or two. If you send a PFD letter to the creditor and it only reports to one or two reports, then there is the possibility they will decide to report to all 3 upon receipt of your PFD.

5) Over time debts get sold. If you are continually trying to get a response to a PFD, then you might see the creditor update to $0 in the case of an original creditor or deleted in the case of a collection agency which can indicate they sold the debt. Sometimes the new creditor is harder to get rid of than the old (Credit Management, AFNI, Portfolio Recovery Associates, etc.)

6) Some of the PFD examples in here have legally-based statements that deny owning or being party to the debt. These are in there to protect you. In some states SOL can reset with an admission of a debt. Unfortunately these statements, especially with the word "dispute", can and do get scanned by some systems and that can lead to a dispute with the creditor and sometimes lead to a dispute comment on your credit report. Some mortgage lenders will deny you if they see a dispute comment. Other times a dispute comment can delay or even eliminate your PFD success chances. However, there are plenty of success stories using these statements.

User-submitted PFD examples:

PFD example to a CA

Two PFD examples

PFD example to another CA based off the Tuscani thread above

Unnamed medical CA deletes with an unconventional, short and sweet PFD request.

PFD success and sample letter with Verizon Wireless

Condensed PFD sample

PFD sample for an invalidated CA

A sample PFD letter for Webbank

Contrasting PFD examples

Generic PFD letter

Old school PFD letter posted by Tuscani

PFD Success Stories found within these forums:

RJM Acquisitions removed with a PFD

Centerpoint Energy agrees to delete with a PFD

CSD Collections PFD success

Marigold Financial and RJM Acquisitions both accept PFDs

Credit Bureau of America deletes with a PFD (name in post#3)

TXU Energy agrees to a deletion after several tries

CBCS agrees to a deletion after 3 attempts

More RJM Acquisition success

AR Resources agrees to delete with a PFD

Entergy promises to delete after a PFD

Aragon collection agency PFD success

Concentric Receivables Management says "yes" to a PFD

Dual success with Grant & Weber and Financial Credit Network

Nordstrom CC PFD success

Receivables Performance Management agrees to a PFD

Asset Acceptance PFD success

Lots of PFD Success through several CAs within this thread

National Recovery Solutions PFD success

Despite the thread title, Suburban Credit Corporation PFD success

Progressive PFD success

PFD success with a Chase CC

PMAB, LLC PFD worked

Knology PFD deletion

PFD Success with Receivables Management Systems

Enhanced Recovery Solutions agrees to a PFD w/ a nudge from Comcast

Medicredit PFD success

Another Receivables Performance Management success story

Dual success with Grant & Weber and Financial Credit Network, Inc.

Both Congress Collection and National Recovery Agency accepted PFDs

Double success with both RJM Acquisitions and Portfolio Recovery Associates

PFD accepted with a CA called Chase Receivables

A PFD through the OC, BofA, leads to the reporting CA's demise

PFD acceptance from a medical CA

Security Credit Services accepted a PFD

PFD success with Equable Ascent Financial

Professional Credit Consultants successful PFD

Applied Bank accepted a PFD

PFD success with Valley Creditors

....and many, many more!

Re: PFD Q&A, Examples, and PFD Success Stories

Anonymous — Wed, 10 Apr 2013 23:10:28 GMT

Hi, I just started with this service and I'm finding out so much information I am upset I didn't find you earlier!! I had 15 delinquent accounts that I've been working on for the past 6 months to pay off and I am down to my last 1! Unfortunately, every credit bureau is different and it's taken a while to get everything squared away. I have been able to bring up my credit from 506 to 642 with transunion but equifax has me at 608 and experian 565! I feel like this is a daily job but now with the additional help with you guys I see the PFD letters... is this something I can do on PAID collections?? they still come up in my score and they show up as CHARGE OFF'S even though they are paid in full.

Re: PFD Q&A, Examples, and PFD Success Stories

DaBears — Wed, 10 Apr 2013 23:16:01 GMT

Hi and welcome to the boards!!!!! You certainly can use GW (Good Will) letters to try and have the paid charge-offs removed. It will depend on if the OC (Original Creditor) is willing to do it. Some do some don't. Good luck!!!!

Re: PFD Q&A, Examples, and PFD Success Stories

llecs — Wed, 10 Apr 2013 23:16:30 GMT

You'd want to send a GW letter for any paid baddie. Here's a companion thread:

GW letter Q&A, Examples, and GW Success Stories

Re: PFD Q&A, Examples, and PFD Success Stories

Anonymous — Wed, 10 Apr 2013 23:20:05 GMT

thank you! I will send them all out tomorrow and advise on how it went!

Re: PFD Q&A, Examples, and PFD Success Stories

electra — Thu, 11 Apr 2013 13:37:46 GMT

Great post! Very helpful!!

I would however suggest removing the link to the Tuscani PFD and any others that contain this phrase: "This letter is to inform you that the validity of this debt isdisputed. "

I used the Tuscani letter template and ended up having the CA mark the TL as disputed and never responded directly to me. I know others who this has happened to as well. It's really a combo DV and PFD. I was confused when they ignored me and marked the collection as disputed because I wasn't trying to dispute it. Shogun kindly pointed out to me they had done the right thing because of the sentence above. Five or six months later I'm STILL trying to get this item off of my CR. It's my last collection.

Re: PFD Q&A, Examples, and PFD Success Stories

llecs — Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:01:13 GMT

@electra wrote:
Great post! Very helpful!!

I would however suggest removing the link to the Tuscani PFD and any others that contain this phrase: "This letter is to inform you that the validity of this debt isdisputed. "

I used the Tuscani letter template and ended up having the CA mark the TL as disputed and never responded directly to me. I know others who this has happened to as well. It's really a combo DV and PFD. I was confused when they ignored me and marked the collection as disputed because I wasn't trying to dispute it. Shogun kindly pointed out to me they had done the right thing because of the sentence above. Five or six months later I'm STILL trying to get this item off of my CR. It's my last collection.

Thanks for the feedback. I too have experienced the same. There are pros and cons to that statement. Cons: 1) Dispute comment and/or treated as a dispute by the creditor, 2) standoff-ish, and 3) makes it more legalistic which can delay or prohibit PFD success. However the sole pro is worth considering. It completely denies liability. In some states admitting to a debt can reset SOL. This legal statement makes it completely clear that there's no admission. On a legal stanpoint, it's a good statement. IMO, a PFD is a GW letter for unpaid debts and the less standoffish you are the better the odds. I made it a point to include other PFD examples that do omit that statement. My sole PFD success with Verizon Wireless admitted to the debt and I think that, with persistence, resulted in the acceptance.

You did remind me though I should add that as a risk, as it can impare mortgage odds if in the middle of the process, can have a negative impact on FICO in some situations when a dispute comment is placed, and can be viewed negatively by the one you are trying to PFD with.

Re: PFD Q&A, Examples, and PFD Success Stories

electra — Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:01:54 GMT

Here's mine:

PFD success with Valley Creditors

Re: PFD Q&A, Examples, and PFD Success Stories

llecs — Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:13:28 GMT

I went ahead and eliminated the Tuscani thread as a top thread and moved it with the other samples. When I first started researching I swore there were other PFD threads out there on the topic of PFDing, but I really didn't find any, other than success stories. Also updated the risks.

I added the Valley Creditors too, thanks.

Re: PFD Q&A, Examples, and PFD Success Stories

Anonymous — Mon, 15 Apr 2013 19:55:03 GMT

Hi all,

I'm fairly new to the forums, and have a situation where I'm getting ready to send a PFD to a CA, but would really appreciate some feedback before I send it CMRRR. A quick background...the PFD is to Cavalry Portfolio Services and is a balance owed due to a 2007 repo on an auto loan. The amount showing on the CR (as of a 03/13/13 entry on our CR by Cavalry.....I hope that's not a bad sign-them checking) is $5,553, which is of course, the original balance due of $4,306 plus their fees. Instead of offering a percentage, I was thinking of offering a specific dollar amount ($1,500). (Too high/too low?)

You'll notice in the PFD where I have questions. If I can get some input on my questions (and suggestions if you have any), I'd really appreciate it.

Thanks much!

Cavalry Portfolio Services, LLC

Address

City, State ZIP

Re: Collection for Account #: xxxx3654 (I don't want to put "Collection Account for Original Creditor Account #: 00000xxxx" because it indicates I am aware of the debt. Also, the original creditor is no longer reporting, only the CA. Does that sound correct?)

Amount: $1,500 (Should this be the amount I'm offering or the amount they're requesting? My guess if the offer, but I'd like to be sure.)

To Whom It May Concern:

This letter is to inform you that the validity of this debt is disputed. I am not sure of the account number, as 1) have never heard from you; 2) I do not have any record of having heard from you (which one of these should I use?) regarding this account. The account number listed above was included on my Equifax credit report.

In the spirit of compromise, I am willing to pay this account $1,500 if you agree to immediate deletion of this account from any and all credit reporting agencies (Equifax, Experian and TransUnion). The purpose of this settlement is merely to have this item removed from my credit files. It is not to be construed as an acknowledgment of liability for this debt in any form.

If you agree to the terms and accept this agreement, certified funds for the settlement amount of one thousand five hundred dollars ($1,500.00) will be sent to Cavalry Portfolio Services, LLC in exchange for full deletion of ALL references regarding this account from my credit files and full satisfaction of the debt. As certified funds will be used for payment, there shall be no waiting period regarding the deletion of this account from the credit reporting agencies.

Cavalry Portfolio Services, LLC agrees to delete ALL information regarding this account from the credit reporting agencies WITHIN TEN CALENDAR (10) DAYS following receipt of payment as specified above and will not discuss the terms of this settlement with anyone, excluding your client on this account. If contacted by any third party, including credit-reporting agencies, Cavalry Portfolio Services, LLC will not acknowledge that any settlement offer was made, accepted or executed and will, in fact, deny knowledge of any such account.

If you agree to the above terms, please prepare a letter on your company letterhead explicitly agreeing to the same terms as the above settlement offer and have it signed by an authorized representative of Cavalry Portfolio Services, LLC. It will be implied that this letter shall constitute a legally binding contract, enforceable under the laws of my state. (Should I mention what state? Should I familiarize myself with those laws?)

Your response must be postmarked no later than 15 days from your receipt of this settlement offer or this offer will be withdrawn and I will request full validation of this alleged debt, as provided for by the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act.

Please address all correspondence regarding this account to:

You
123 Any Street
City, State Zip

Re: PFD Q&A, Examples, and PFD Success Stories

Anonymous — Mon, 15 Apr 2013 21:12:21 GMT

Ugh. I just remembered my husband talked to this CA about 5 years ago. What's the chance Cavalry has a recording of the conversation? How should I handle this, if at all, in the PFD letter?

Re: PFD Q&A, Examples, and PFD Success Stories

Anonymous — Sun, 28 Apr 2013 14:45:00 GMT

I had a medical collection $279 from 8/2012 and was able to negotiate a PFD with over the phone 4/10/2013, experian deleted within 2 weeks.

I had a medical collection of $50 show up 4/15/2013 from a different company which is from the samevisit last year. Apparently first bill was for the doctor only. I did receive that bill and I forgot about it which is why it went into collections. This second bill I had no knowledge of at all. I called NPAS they had my address but no apartment number, manager said they did not call me because amount was so small. They let it sit at their office 90 days with no attempt to collect and then reported. NPAS refuses to delete even though they made an error in billing. I paid Methodist Hospital the $50 but did not ask them to retract account from collections. What can I do?

Re: PFD Q&A, Examples, and PFD Success Stories

Anonymous — Sun, 28 Apr 2013 19:50:03 GMT

I have six accounts that I've just started to work on and I'm still so confused about how to go about squaring things away and having the status changed on my report. I just paid a balance in full with Portfolio Recovery and requested to also have the status deleted from my report, but was told that they can't do that. The supervisor I spoke with told me that only the credit reporting agency can delete a negative report. Is that true? My understanding is that the collection agency reports the debt to the credit report agencies--if they're doing the reporting, why can't they delete it?

Re: PFD Q&A, Examples, and PFD Success Stories

Hopelives2 — Sun, 28 Apr 2013 20:56:13 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
I have six accounts that I've just started to work on and I'm still so confused about how to go about squaring things away and having the status changed on my report. I just paid a balance in full with Portfolio Recovery and requested to also have the status deleted from my report, but was told that they can't do that. The supervisor I spoke with told me that only the credit reporting agency can delete a negative report. Is that true? My understanding is that the collection agency reports the debt to the credit report agencies--if they're doing the reporting, why can't they delete it?

So you paid them before requestin in exchange that the derog be removed?

Technically, that is correct: only credit reporting agencies can change the report. However, they will report and change whatever according to the directions of the collection agency, original creditor, etc.

So, in the past, what I have done is:

1) sent a PFD letter to collection agency requesting that if I PFD, the derogatory line item will be deleted or changed to show no deliquency

2) once receiving the confirmation of the terms acceptance (delete for being paid in full), I send a certified bank check to the CA

3) with the certified bank check, I send a follow-up letter thanking them for working with me and for deleting the derogatory remark off my credit report

4) after waiting about 10 days, I see if the derogatory is removed; if not, I follow up with CA to request that it be done

In only one case, have I turned things over to the attorney general and written to the federal government... with great success, I might add

Best,

Hope

----

This is a letter I sent PFD, and the derogs were removed immediately.

May 2, 2011

Global Payments Check Recovery Services, Inc.

6215 W. Howard St.

Niles, IL 60714

Re: Collection Accounts for Gas Station

Account #: xxxxxxx5 - $$

Account #: xxxxxxx9 - $$

Account #: xxxxxxx7 - $$

Account #: xxxxxxx9 - $$

To Whom It May Concern:

This letter is to try and settle accounts included in my Chapter 7 bankruptcy which was fully discharged on May 25, 2010.

In the spirit of goodwill, I am asking to pay these accounts IN FULL if you agree to immediate deletion of this account from any and all credit reporting agencies (Equifax, Experian and TransUnion). The purpose of this settlement is merely to have this item removed from my credit files. It is not to be construed as an acknowledgment of liability for this debt in any form as the accounts were included in the discharged bankruptcy.

If you agree to the terms and accept this agreement, certified funds for the settlement amount of one hundred, ninety-five dollars, ($195.00) will be sent to Global Payments Check Recovery Services in exchange for full deletion of ALL references regarding this account from my credit files and full satisfaction of the debt. As certified funds will be used for payment, there shall be no waiting period regarding the deletion of this account from the credit reporting agencies.

Global Payments Check Recovery Services agrees to delete ALL information regarding this account from the credit reporting agencies WITHIN TEN CALENDAR (10) DAYS following receipt of payment as specified above and will not discuss the terms of this settlement with anyone, excluding your client on this account. If contacted by any third party, including credit-reporting agencies, Global Payments Check Recovery Services will not acknowledge that any settlement offer was made, accepted or executed and will, in fact, deny knowledge of any such account.

If you agree to the above terms, please prepare a letter on your company letterhead explicitly agreeing to the same terms as the above settlement offer and have it signed by an authorized representative of Global Payments Check Recovery Services. It will be implied that this letter shall constitute a legally binding contract, enforceable under the laws of my state.

Your response must be postmarked no later than 15 days from your receipt of this settlement offer or this offer will be withdrawn, as under bankruptcy laws, I am not obligated to pay.

Please address all correspondence regarding this account to:

My name

my address

my city, state zip

Re: PFD Q&A, Examples, and PFD Success Stories

Anonymous — Thu, 16 May 2013 06:15:28 GMT

I unintentionally had a creditor report an installment loan as disputed recently. I hired a credit repair service and asked them not to dispute a certain negative item. The item was a student loan in which I had a 180 delinquency. It had since been brought current and I specifically asked Lexington Law to not send a duspute letter because it was a title iv student loan that i did not want to dispute and i also felt it was more positive than negative because of the fact that i was current more months than delinquent. They didnt keep their promises .they said they wouldn't however they still did. About 30 days later I received an alert from myfico scorewatch that my equifax score jumped up 20 points because of this item being disputed. I then checked with experian and saw that my score had jumped 37 points with them. I am a little confused because it says in this post that something that shows disputed on a credit report wil have a negative impact. But it didn't in my case so what is the deal?

Re: PFD Q&A, Examples, and PFD Success Stories

llecs — Thu, 16 May 2013 14:57:02 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
I unintentionally had a creditor report an installment loan as disputed recently. I hired a credit repair service and asked them not to dispute a certain negative item. The item was a student loan in which I had a 180 delinquency. It had since been brought current and I specifically asked Lexington Law to not send a duspute letter because it was a title iv student loan that i did not want to dispute and i also felt it was more positive than negative because of the fact that i was current more months than delinquent. They didnt keep their promises .they said they wouldn't however they still did. About 30 days later I received an alert from myfico scorewatch that my equifax score jumped up 20 points because of this item being disputed. I then checked with experian and saw that my score had jumped 37 points with them. I am a little confused because it says in this post that something that shows disputed on a credit report wil have a negative impact. But it didn't in my case so what is the deal?

If you have SW, then you are looking at an EQ FICO score. If you checked with Experian, then you aren't looking at an EX FICO score because Experian blocked all consumer access to your own EX FICO (though that will change very soon). With that said, ignore the Experian score since it's a FAKO and FAKO scoring factors in stuff that FICO does not and vice-versa.

Backtracking...your EQ FICO increased because a dispute comment was placed on it. Under FICO scoring, FICO will ignore certain aspects of a TL which include your balance, the CL (not applicable here), and the payment history. So, for as long as the dispute comment remains FICO will be artifically propped up because it is ignoring your lates on your SL. Once the dispute comment goes away, then your score will return to where it was, assuming there were no other changes to your EQ CR. I've made it a point that a dispute can harm for many reasons. I won't get into all of those here, but you cited one: a dispute gives a false sense of security because your FICO will drop if the acct is verified by the lender. Also, it is very common for a lender to add lates when they didn't report them before. It's quite common for a lender to underreport, in your favor, "OKs" when there should have been a late. That update can cause your FICO to drop even further than where it was before. Also if the current status is a negative, FICO will often view the baddies as a newer negative because the reported date will update (and sometimes DOLA too), and that will cause an additional FICO drop once the dispute comment goes away. Certainly all of this depends on what, if anything, changes. Who know, maybe it'll change in your favor.

Re: PFD Q&A, Examples, and PFD Success Stories

Anonymous — Thu, 23 May 2013 21:09:40 GMT

Success! I wrote a PFD letter for my daughter for a medical bill. The CA listed it four times on her CR, as they listed each individual bill from the OC. Though it was PFD letter, a check for the full balance due was included. Like much of the advise given, the letter was personal and honest, written from point of view from a college age student. The debt was hers and she knew it, so she paid it and asked to have it removed from the CR's. Today it dropped from Credit Karma (yes I know it is a FAKO, but it is free). Her score jumped 52 points with that gone!

Such a success gives a person the positive feeling to try a few more. I wanted to go one at a time, so we wrote one for her, one for me. Yippee!

Re: PFD Q&A, Examples, and PFD Success Stories

llecs — Thu, 30 May 2013 04:25:36 GMT

Split post to form a new thread within Rebuilding Your Credit

Re: PFD Q&A, Examples, and PFD Success Stories

Anonymous — Fri, 27 Sep 2013 16:35:44 GMT

GSI out of NJ; medical bill... PFD success!!! WOOT WOOT! I called the company and they settled the account for $70 and will delete; also sent email that account is paid in full and will be removing off credit report since the contact information they had was not correct. I talked to Dan Burns; nice guy, willing to help and listen. Great folks to deal with. They will update the credit agency and said it should be done within two weeks!!!

Re: PFD Q&A, Examples, and PFD Success Stories

Anonymous — Sun, 23 Feb 2014 13:50:31 GMT

DO NOT PFD!!!

DV the debt!! I had 4 accounts ( 3 in collection and one previously paid off account.) , two of the collections I had already made payments on when I did a little research. I wrote all of the letters myself and all four accounts were DELETED! They even REFUNDED my payment! The charge off account was totally wiped from my credit report. Now I am free and clear!

Never talk to them over the phone, letters only! Request they do not contact you by phone or this is considered harassment. Being meaningful in your letter and show that you know your rights and what you are able to do if they do not DV the debt