topic Re: Opinions on a logo? Please? in SmorgasBoard

Opinions on a logo? Please?

Anonymous — Thu, 20 Nov 2008 17:13:59 GMT

Opinions, please?

This is a logo for a government Human Factors Engineering group that I designed for DH. He ASKED me (and nope, I'm NOT getting paid for it) to create a stylized, easily recognizable and attractive brand for his group.

DH asked me to do this and doesn't like what I came up with and would rather (and I quote) have it look like the Stay-Puff Marshmallow man in a sailor suit with the wave background.

The sailor suit = the navy (who he works for and who his customers are). The "spread-eagle" pose = Leonardo DaVinci's Vitruvian man (that illustration is the "universal" symbol for HFE and ergonomics). And the wave = the programs he works on..

Will the Stay-Puff man REALLY look professional for a scientific military group in marketing to other government/military programs?

Please, please, please give me your feedback. This whole thing has started an argument between us the likes of which no one has EVER seen (since he's been insulting my ability as a branding/marketing professional -- even though I've been doing it for YEARS -- years longer than he's been an HFE!!).

Right now, I'm feeling, right or wrongly, that I'm being treated like a monkey with an Etch-A-Sketch. He would NEVER allow anyone to treatHIS professional opinion the way he's treated mine. NEVER.

Any opinions? Please?

Re: Opinions on a logo? Please?

Anonymous — Thu, 20 Nov 2008 17:18:44 GMT

Whoops!! Messed up the link! Sorry!!

The logo.

ETA: Couldn't get the stupid link to work -- fixed now!

Message Edited by Wonderin on 11-20-2008 11:18 AM

Re: Opinions on a logo? Please?

Anonymous — Thu, 20 Nov 2008 17:25:58 GMT

BTW, I'm really not asking if anyone likes it or not ... just whether something like that looks more professional than the Stay-Puff Marshmallow man -- especially for a government/military department image/brand!

Re: Opinions on a logo? Please?

Anonymous — Thu, 20 Nov 2008 18:34:59 GMT

I think that he handled this horribly. I was thinking about it, and this sounds like the way that my father speaks to his family -- the words come out and I think to myself, "did you give any thought at all to the way that the person is going to receive what you're saying ?" He would say things with all the gentleness of being hit in the head with a brick.

I looked at what your logo and I see something professionally made.

My critique is this. In my opinion, your logo puts the primary emphasis on the navy theme and secondary emphasis on the Vitruvian Man. Because you said that the Vitruvian Man (link) is the ""universal" symbol for HFE and ergonomics", I think that more emphasis should be placed on the Vitruvian Man. I think that this could be done by making the figure in the logo less abstract. My immediate reaction to the logo was that I wasn't able to grasp any connection to the Vitruvian Man because of a few things:
by making the figure in your logo have two arms and two legs, by the fact that the sailor suit dominates the image, and by the fact that the navy suit is "empty"(i.e., in my opinion, the fact that the clothes are splayed was the only indication that I had that the artist wanted me to know that I was looking at a human being striking a pose).

In my opinion, what would emphasize the theme more of the Vitruvian Man in your logo is (a) a more literal interpretation in your logo of Leonardo's Vitruvian Man image and (b) putting a more subtle connection to the Navy in your logo; in my opinion, the Navy suit is too overt

Message Edited by MojaveMoon on 11-20-2008 10:34 AM

Re: Opinions on a logo? Please?

Anonymous — Thu, 20 Nov 2008 18:46:38 GMT

Thank you, Mojave for the kind and honest words!!

So you think that if I put a head "on the suit" that it would work? I can't put a face (even though DH is complaining about it) because they plan to shrink the logo to one inch for CD covers and software icons -- if I put a face it would end up jarbled unless they took the printing/output to a "Show Quality" print production shop (when really, it will most likely just be printed out on a 8 year old InkJet office printer).

And my issue with the whole situation isn't the fact that he didn't like my work -- it was the fact that when I tried to discuss branding with him intelligently and calmly, he took potshots at my professional ability AND integrity. When I tried to tell him that 1) The Stay-Puff Marshmallow man is trademarked and copyrighted (and illegal to use) and he can't use it and 2) it wouldn't convey a serious, scientific, and professional image, he said "Is this how you treat your customers? No wonder you're not working" When he knows DAMNED well that I'm not working because I'm still recovering from a stroke I had almost a year ago).

Yikes. I'm sorry -- I didn't mean to rant (and I REALLY hope you didn't think I was yelling at YOU). I'm just so frustrated by the whole issue. I've tried to "work" with him before and the previous time, it didn't go any better than this time. I'm just a boob for not learning my lesson then!

It just bugs the crap outta me that if you should even HINT at disagreeing with HIS professional opinion, you're an utter moron looking for a fight. But anyone else ... their professional opinion just doesn't matter.

Thanks again, Mojave. The PROFESSIONALLY given critique made me feel better! You didn't question my ability or talent. You just nicely and objectively told me what you thought!!! Much, much, MUCH appreciated!!

Re: Opinions on a logo? Please?

Anonymous — Thu, 20 Nov 2008 18:52:17 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
I think that he handled this horribly. I was thinking about it, and this sounds like the way that my father speaks to his family -- the words come out and I think to myself, "did you give any thought at all to the way that the person is going to receive what you're saying ?" He would say things with all the gentleness of being hit in the head with a brick.

LOL!! Are we related? As much as I love him dearly (despite my ranting here, I really, really do -- he's my Knight in Shining Slightly Tarnished Armor), you just nailed him on the proverbial head!

He's always been like that. I dunno why. We've fussed about it so many times, it ain't funny. He calls it "being honest" whereas the rest of us in the family call it "being BRUTALLY honest." :/

Not to offend anyone, here ... but by any chance was your father in the military? Not saying that all military people gravitate towards being jerks or mean -- just that I think the training involved kinda ... teaches them that.

Just curious.

Again, Mojave, thank you so much for support!!!!

Hugs!!!

Re: Opinions on a logo? Please?

Anonymous — Thu, 20 Nov 2008 23:22:50 GMT

I personally think you captured all the elements quite well. I've seen a lot of branding and logos having previously spent 5 years working for a worldwide ad agency (not that 5 years is a lifetime but we had hundreds of clients and I saw lots and lots of brands) and your logo sure could pass for the works of many of the talented creatives I've worked with. Good job.

ETA: The Stay Puft Man doesn't exactly convey "professionalism" to me. Go, go, go, go, go, go, Ghoooooostbusters!

Message Edited by UpUpUp on 11-20-2008 06:22 PM

Re: Opinions on a logo? Please?

Anonymous — Fri, 21 Nov 2008 00:19:18 GMT

After reading UpUpUp's reaction and UpUpUp's background in advertising, maybe you should disregard my comments because maybe my point of view is the opposite of that of your client.

I thought about how I would try to define the Vitruvian Man and what makes something Vitruvian-esque; to me, there are two components:
(1) the anatomy -- the four arms and four legs
(2) the nude (Michaelangelo's) David-esque physique

That's what I meant when I said that in my personal opinion I reacted to the figure in the logo as a little too abstract; the two arms and legs and the clothing made it harder for me to immediately identify an association with the Vitruvian Man

So, as I mulled this over, where my thinking led me to was a logo where the figure adheres more closely to these two components; and then, for the navy theme, I was thinking of incorporating the navy theme into the logo through having one of three things in the background of the logo -- a particular navy motto, a navy emblem or navy symbol, or a particular object immediately associated with the navy.

But maybe my take on this too literal as far as representing and incorporating the themes of the Vitruvian Man and the Navy

Message Edited by MojaveMoon on 11-20-2008 04:19 PM

Re: Opinions on a logo? Please?

haulingthescoreup — Thu, 20 Nov 2008 23:55:49 GMT

My immediate reaction was that I liked it, but after reading UpUpUp's (dang, that's hard to type) comments, I agree with her that it might be a bit too stylized.

Now that I've exhausted my knowledge of logos and brand marketing , I would simply add that IMO, your DH acted like a jerk and could use a night on the couch to ponder things. Unlike many people's opinion, I believe that family members should treat one another with more kindness and consideration than they do outsiders. You can express disagreement without humiliation.

And as I have painstakingly explained to my own husband a number of times, saying that someone is acting like a jerk isn't the same thing as saying that they are a jerk.

You don't crap on people whom you love.

edited to add the all-important "IMO."

Message Edited by haulingthescoreup on 11-20-2008 03:55 PM

Re: Opinions on a logo? Please?

Anonymous — Fri, 21 Nov 2008 00:17:43 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
Yikes. I'm sorry -- I didn't mean to rant (and I REALLY hope you didn't think I was yelling at YOU). I'm just so frustrated by the whole issue.

@Anonymous wrote:
He's always been like that. I dunno why. We've fussed about it so many times, it ain't funny. He calls it "being honest" whereas the rest of us in the family call it "being BRUTALLY honest." :/
Not to offend anyone, here ... but by any chance was your father in the military? Not saying that all military people gravitate towards being jerks or mean -- just that I think the training involved kinda ... teaches them that.
Just curious.

no problem, venting is what's helped a family member and me so much with coping with my father's "brutal honesty". Your question was funny because, yes, he was an officer. At one point I finally had the question in my mind, how much of this is my father's innate personality and how much is the by-product of the military ? Besides the brutal honesty, something else that sometimes made me wonder about the impact the military had on him is that sometimes a dialogue with him is like a dialogue with a doctor -- a conversation must have a purpose, must be concise, and, if there's a problem, must clearly and quickly specify the situation and the resolution you're seeking.

Message Edited by MojaveMoon on 11-20-2008 04:17 PM

Re: Opinions on a logo? Please?

Anonymous — Fri, 21 Nov 2008 00:25:16 GMT

Thanks ya'll!

I was REALLY unsure as to whether I being too prideful in the whole situation. DH CLEARLY thinks I'm overreacting (and has been nice as pie -- almost ingratiating) since I first gave him the cold shoulder (DH's translation: "Uh-oh, if she's mad AND quiet, she's plotting something"). Needless to say, although the man outweighs me by 160 pounds and is roughly half a foot taller than me, I've got him nervous. "Poor man" tossed and turned all night!

(BTW, he doesn't sleep on the couch when I'm mad -- that's too easy on him. He needs to be right next to me, worrying about what I MIGHT do once he falls asleep! He's a heavy sleeper -- and I'm not! )

And Hauling, saying that I agree with you on the whole "being nicer to family" thing (among so many others) would be a mere understatement. Home is a REFUGE. It's a sanctuary against the world. A place to feel safe, secure and loved -- especially valuable on days where everyone's ripped you a nice new one to go with the one you already had.

I swear the man's a loon, though. If someone even breathed a bad word about me, that booger would be up in arms, screaming to the high heavers. But he doesn't believe his own hype when it comes to how he acts sometimes.

But really, all that ranting aside, I just wanted to know if I was overreacting -- or being a "chick" about the whole thing. I didn't even see it so much as a ding on me personally or as a woman, as much as I did as it being an issue of integrity and professionalism.

Now, 'cause of ya'll's reactions, I see that while I might not be 100% right, I'm at least not 100% wrong. Thank you again, guys!!

And since I AM so pi$$ed off about the whole thing (really, he really did treat me like a monkey with an Etch-A-Sketch -- the people who work FOR him, he drives bonkers, too, so it's not just me) I'm not doing the d@mned thing. He can poop something out in Microsoft Paint for all I care. And he can get his patootie sued for copyright infringement of the Stay-Puft man.

Phooey. I'm DONE.

Re: Opinions on a logo? Please?

Anonymous — Fri, 21 Nov 2008 00:32:36 GMT

@haulingthescoreup wrote:
And as I have painstakingly explained to my own husband a number of times, saying that someone is acting like a jerk isn't the same thing as saying that they are a jerk.

Yeesh. I have TRIED that. Don't work. The man's got a never-used psych degree and knows all the "tricks" (IHO, it's not good communication skills, it's a trick).

I swear, I love that man to pure foolishness, and I feel like an awful wife and person for spouting off here about him (thank goodness that his urge to read the forums happens far and few between), but this last go, I really wanted to wring his neck like a dirty dishcloth.

He's really a good guy, he really is. And I am damned lucky to have him. And I know he loves me to pieces. But sometimes ... to the frickin' moon, Eric. To the frickin' MOON!!

Again, I'm sorry to rant like a crazy woman on crack. I know I'm not the only person to deal with a pig-headed man. And ya'll are just being so sweet and supportive. I really wish I could just reach right through the monitor and give ya'll a big ol hug for just being so sweet.

Damned one-way monitor.

Re: Opinions on a logo? Please?

Anonymous — Fri, 21 Nov 2008 00:41:40 GMT

MojaveMoon wrote: no problem, venting is what's helped a family member and me so much with coping with my father's "brutal honesty". Your question was funny because, yes, he was an officer. At one point I finally had the question in my mind, how much of this is my father's innate personality and how much is the by-product of the military ? Besides the brutal honesty, something else that sometimes made me wonder about the impact the military had on him is that sometimes a dialogue with him is like a dialogue with a doctor -- a conversation must have a purpose, must be concise, and, if there's a problem, must clearly and quickly specify the situation and the resolution you're seeking.
Message Edited by MojaveMoon on 11-20-2008 04:17 PM

OMGosh!! He's an ex-officer, too!! I think we've hit something, here!!

Yep, DH is like that, too, with conversations -- unless it's on a topic HE likes. Lorda-mercy! I've been an avid quilter and home-sewer for over 15 years and if I happen to mention the "Q" or "S" word, his eyes glaze over and he turns up the TV volume. But that man could talk for YEARS about scuba diving (whoops! It's SCUBA, sorry), planes, boats, diving, the Keys ... you get the picture. :/

But that's okay ... that means he isn't listening when I tell him how much I spent on fabric at JoAnn's Fabric or my local quilt shop.

In all seriousness, though, I really do think that's what did it. By his own accounts, before he entered the military (he went to military school, BTW), he was a "screw-up" and a "hippie" (how that's a BAD thing, I dunno) and the military "straightened him out" and made him a "man."

I talked to some of his childhood friends (before he went to OTC) and they told me he actually used to blush! Can you imagine??!! That man has had the gall to try to poop in front of me (knowing I'd run out of the bathroom so he could laugh at me) and he NEVER blushed ONCE.

Oooh! Also, he's second generation officer. His dad was in the service, too (served in the Korean War, as a matter of fact). Does that by any chance fit yours, too? I'm just thinking that maybe, maybe, it's kind of ingrained from childhood, too, somehow. I dunno.

Think the gubmint would pay for a study?

Re: Opinions on a logo? Please?

haulingthescoreup — Fri, 21 Nov 2008 01:27:02 GMT

Well, FWIW (not much, I know), my dad was an officer, and he had to medically retire when he was on the promotion list to general.

He was never like this. He wasn't a saint, I'm not saying that, but he never crapped on my mother (or me.)