topic Re: Covid 19 deaths and CC question in SmorgasBoard

Covid 19 deaths and CC question

Anonymous — Tue, 28 Sep 2021 13:27:05 GMT

So there are now over 660,000 deaths from Covid in the USA. I am sure many of these people had credit cards.

What are the lenders doing about this? Usually when a CC goes unpaid it is charged off and sold to a CA.

However, you can not sue a dead person. So I doubt the CA would want to buy this debt.

People have no time to prepare unlike a cancer patient. So how do the banks collect on all these CO's? It is similar to someone who dies in a car accident. No prior knowledge or preperation.

Banks would have a hard time absorbing all this bad debt so how is this being handled?

Thank you in advance.

Mark

Re: Covid 19 deaths and CC question

Trini88 — Tue, 28 Sep 2021 13:44:39 GMT

I was legit wondering this as well. I just said to myself that if either me or my husband dies, we have to pay on the other's debt BUT if we both die.....what happens to the debt.....

Re: Covid 19 deaths and CC question

FinStar — Tue, 28 Sep 2021 13:50:36 GMT

That's why financial institutions have loan loss reserves. If the financial institution (or CA) is unable to collect, they takes a loss (e.g. credit cards, automobiles, homes, etc.). Unless, the financial institution is able to recover any funds through an individual's estate, if applicable. In addition to the unfortunate number of people lost during the pandemic, there were also major financial impacts with people losing their employment.

As a result, the vast majority of financial institutions tightened the reins in lending criteria, reduced/cut or froze credit lines, exited unprofitable partnerships, etc.

Re: Covid 19 deaths and CC question

spiritcraft1 — Tue, 28 Sep 2021 13:52:05 GMT

On a stricktly legal basis, a spouse is not liable for another spouses debt correct? Perhaps the "estate" is liable but I don't think a CC debt in one persons name "transfers" upon death.

Re: Covid 19 deaths and CC question

Anonymous — Tue, 28 Sep 2021 13:59:57 GMT

@spiritcraft1 wrote:
On a stricktly legal basis, a spouse is not liable for another spouses debt correct? Perhaps the "estate" is liable but I don't think a CC debt in one persons name "transfers" upon death.

Well I do know if they where both on a credit card together then they are liable for the debt. Either or.

That is a good question. I have no idea if a spouse is liable for the debt if it is a card just in the deceased persons name.

Is the answer the same no matter where you live or is it not the same depending what state you live in? I have no idea.

Are there any credit lawyers on this site? that would help

Thanks

Mark

Re: Covid 19 deaths and CC question

Anonymous — Tue, 28 Sep 2021 14:05:32 GMT

@FinStar wrote:
That's why financial institutions have loan loss reserves. If the financial institution (or CA) is unable to collect, they takes a loss (e.g. credit cards, automobiles, homes, etc.). Unless, the financial institution is able to recover any funds through an individual's estate, if applicable. In addition to the unfortunate number of people lost during the pandemic, there were also major financial impacts with people losing their employment.

As a result, the vast majority of financial institutions tightened the reins in lending criteria, reduced/cut or froze credit lines, exited unprofitable partnerships, etc.

lets say someone lives alone in a rental apartment. Dies from Covid. Any assets he or she has can not be attached to once they die. I am not a lawyer so I am not sure. I do know as I said prior you can not sue a deceased person. Attach to a ring in a draw? I have no idea. This is why I posted this I would like to know as I have to deal with the families every day and they ask me questions and I tell them I do not know. That is a pretty bad answer but I rather say nothing then give wrong info. I am asked the questions all the time about a creditor by family members. I am just a forensic pathologist and I do not know enough about the law to guide anyone. This would really help.

Thanks

Mark

Re: Covid 19 deaths and CC question

Puppetmaster — Tue, 28 Sep 2021 14:22:30 GMT

@Anonymous,

660,000 deaths from COVID is just a drop in the bucket of all deaths, as far as total deaths that credit institutions deal with. When someone dies, the executor of their estate is legally responsible for paying whatever debts there may be, from whatever assets there may be, before distributing whatever is left to whatever heirs there may be. In some cases, where assets and obligations are jointly owned, the surviving person remains responsible. How the death of one spouse affects the other spouse's rights and redponsibilities depends in large part upon whether or not they had a "community marriage" or "community property agreement." In some states, marriages are community property marriages, and in some they are not. Courts oversee how assets and luabilities are handled by estates, and the only legitimate circumstance in which a creditor wouldn't get paid would be in the event that the estate is insolvent. All of the above is not legal advice, and is oversimplified to convey a general understanding of how creditors get paid after someone dies, regardless whether their death is from COVID or any other cause.

@Anonymous wrote:
So there are now over 660,000 deaths from Covid in the USA. I am sure many of these people had credit cards.
What are the lenders doing about this? Usually when a CC goes unpaid it is charged off and sold to a CA.
However, you can not sue a dead person. So I doubt the CA would want to buy this debt.
People have no time to prepare unlike a cancer patient. So how do the banks collect on all these CO's? It is similar to someone who dies in a car accident. No prior knowledge or preperation.

Banks would have a hard time absorbing all this bad debt so how is this being handled?
Thank you in advance.
Mark

Re: Covid 19 deaths and CC question

Brian_Earl_Spilner — Tue, 28 Sep 2021 14:27:12 GMT

It's no different than a normal death. They'll go to the estate to get paid. If there's no will it goes to the next closest relative or spouse. If they don't have family, the state will try to locate the closest relative. If they can't find one, the estate becomes property of the state. I'm sure there's a way for CAs to make a claim with the state on the unclaimed estate.

Re: Covid 19 deaths and CC question

coldfusion — Tue, 28 Sep 2021 14:50:35 GMT

@Puppetmaster wrote:
660,000 deaths from COVID is just a drop in the bucket of all deaths, as far as total deaths that credit institutions deal with. When someone dies, the executor of their estate is legally responsible for paying whatever debts there may be, from whatever assets there may be, before distributing whatever is left to whatever heirs there may be. In some cases, where assets and obligations are jointly owned, the surviving person remains responsible. How the death of one spouse affects the other spouse's rights and redponsibilities depends in large part upon whether or not they had a "community marriage" or "community property agreement." In some states, marriages are community property marriages, and in some they are not. Courts oversee how assets and luabilities are handled by estates, and the only legitimate circumstance in which a creditor wouldn't get paid would be in the event that the estate is insolvent. All of the above is not legal advice, and is oversimplified to convey a general understanding of how creditors get paid after someone dies, regardless whether their death is from COVID or any other cause.

You pretty much summed it all up.

Re: Covid 19 deaths and CC question

Cowboys4Life — Tue, 28 Sep 2021 14:58:35 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
So there are now over 660,000 deaths from Covid in the USA. I am sure many of these people had credit cards.
What are the lenders doing about this? Usually when a CC goes unpaid it is charged off and sold to a CA.
However, you can not sue a dead person. So I doubt the CA would want to buy this debt.
People have no time to prepare unlike a cancer patient. So how do the banks collect on all these CO's? It is similar to someone who dies in a car accident. No prior knowledge or preperation.

Banks would have a hard time absorbing all this bad debt so how is this being handled?
Thank you in advance.
Mark

First and foremost HOW the consumer dies is not a factor in what the creditors do. Having a covid cause attached to the birth certificate does not give any special consideration over any other cause of death. How creditors handle the account is the same as before the current nonsense.

Using a married couple as an example. If this is a community property state the surviving spouse could very well be responsible for the debt. If it is a joint account then it can remain open as long as the surviving spouse continues to make the payments but as a joint account they are legally responsible for the entire debt. Any accounts held strictly by the consumer who passes are notified by the executor of the estate that the consumer has passed. Typically a letter and a copy of the death certificate are all that are needed to close the account and get a final balance.

Before ANY assets can be distributed to heirs all debts of the deceased are required to be paid. This is where the executor opens probate. If there are sufficient assets they can simply use them to pay off the accounts and move on. If there are limited assets compared to the debts then they open probate and creditors have 90 days to make a claim against the estate. NO they do not have to sue the consumer/deceased person. The majority of the time they do not even have to sue the estate. Once a creditor makes a claim against the estate and the 90 days closes then the court decides which claims can and will be paid until assets run out or all claims are paid. Once that is finished then any remaining assets are distributed to the intended heirs. In order to pay claims thay may mean selling items of value that are not protected by state laws for a surviving spouse. So in the case of someone who does not have a spouse but does have heirs (such as kids or grand kids) this is where heirs get upset when they find out that the family home has a mortgage that has to be paid if they want to inherit or that Grandad had a lot of credit card debt and claims were filed against the estate and his car, bank accounts, etc. will be used to pay the debts with what they thought was their inheritance first. Especially the home if they can't qualify for their own mortgage to buy it out from the current lender.

Someone who dies without assets and a will (intestate) the creditors can open a claim but they get nothing because there is nothing to attach to liquidate to pay them. If there are few assets many creditors don't even bother to file a claim and use their business loss insurance to cover the account.

For creditors who have a claim and the estate has siginficant assets there is another scenario: the creditor failing or forgetting to file a claim against the estate. It still happens today where a major creditor fails to file a timely claim for an account of a deceased consumer. Once probate closes and the estate is settled all future claims are barred. There is nothing the creditor can do once probate concludes.

There are lawsuits against estates all the time. Most often it is usually heirs suing each other over disputes over the assets. However, if a creditor feels the executor/heirs are hiding assets to intentionally keep them for themselves and avoid paying creditors first as required by law then the estate, executor and heirs can all be sued and have to explain to the court where the assets are or went.

All of this is the big reason that EVERYONE should draw up a will to designate where their assets will go upon their passing. It is also why hiring a good estate lawyer when the person does pass is essential to handling the matter cleanly if there are a good amount of assets and the executor has little to no experience in how to properly dispose of and distribute an estate.

Re: Covid 19 deaths and CC question

Anonymous — Tue, 28 Sep 2021 16:48:07 GMT

I must say thanks to all of you who responded. A lot of what was said here I now understand. It was never explainded to me before. But now with Covid the death rate is way up and I am in one of the three hot spots for Covid in Central Florida.

When people ask me now and when they are scared about "burning the banks" at least I will now give very little info as they really need to contact experts on their own behalf. But since most contact me first with questions I can give some very generic answers now.

A big qustion which seems to be on the top of the list was in my first post. How do banks absorb this? I will now tell families that the banks have departments set up to handle this and they should not worry if Chase is past due. Also I knew accounts should be closed right away to prevent fraud but with all this new information I can now give more answers that most are looking for.

In my 35 years of doing what I do I never had the volume of these sorts of questions before. I usually deal with homicides and cold cases this Covid is way out of the ordinary for me.

Thanks again

Mark

Re: Covid 19 deaths and CC question

dragontears — Tue, 28 Sep 2021 17:03:54 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
I must say thanks to all of you who responded. A lot of what was said here I now understand. It was never explainded to me before. But now with Covid the death rate is way up and I am in one of the three hot spots for Covid in Central Florida.
When people ask me now and when they are scared about "burning the banks" at least I will now give very little info as they really need to contact experts on their own behalf. But since most contact me first with questions I can give some very generic answers now.

A big qustion which seems to be on the top of the list was in my first post. How do banks absorb this? I will now tell families that the banks have departments set up to handle this and they should not worry if Chase is past due. Also I knew accounts should be closed right away to prevent fraud but with all this new information I can now give more answers that most are looking for.

In my 35 years of doing what I do I never had the volume of these sorts of questions before. I usually deal with homicides and cold cases this Covid is way out of the ordinary for me.
Thanks again
Mark

I would strongly advise you to NOT answer any questions about this, instead give general "seek professional advice" type of statement. You are not qualified to give what could be possibly viewed as legal advice and you don't want to accidentally leave yourself open to being liable for giving "legal" advice to grieving people when you are not completely aware of the financial situation of the deceased. Probate and estate laws can be tricky and everyone's situation is different.

To address your specific question about how lenders deal with losses incurred by death of the borrower, it is the same as they deal with any other loss, they either file a legal claim (against the estate in the case of a death or a lawsuit for a living person) or they write it off. The reason banks must keep reserves is to insure that defaults/losses don't make them in danger of "failing". Every lender has some level of defaults assumed in their business model.

Re: Covid 19 deaths and CC question

Brian_Earl_Spilner — Tue, 28 Sep 2021 18:10:30 GMT

@Anonymous ot, but I always wanted to be a forensic pathologist. How many years of school and residency did you need?

Re: Covid 19 deaths and CC question

Anonymous — Tue, 28 Sep 2021 21:16:34 GMT

@Brian_Earl_Spilner wrote:
@Anonymous ot, but I always wanted to be a forensic pathologist. How many years of school and residency did you need?

I did it quite fast. A total of 8 years plus residency. I grew up in a funeral home business, after high school I would go to the funeral home to read death certificates. I wondered what could have been done so this person didnt die or why this person was in the wrong place at the wrong time, even why would a spouse kill the other.

When I finally finished school, and residency I was left with a few hundred thousand dollars of student loans, and about $3 in my wallet. The daunting task to find a job to pay some of the loans back was first priority. There are always plenty of jobs in this field so I landed one right away. I will always have a job unless people stop killing each other. You know that will never happen LOL. In this day and age it is probably a good choice, but most say that they didn't become a doctor MD to work on the dead.

Thanks

Mark

Re: Covid 19 deaths and CC question

Brian_Earl_Spilner — Wed, 29 Sep 2021 00:09:41 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
@Brian_Earl_Spilner wrote:
@Anonymous ot, but I always wanted to be a forensic pathologist. How many years of school and residency did you need?
I did it quite fast. A total of 8 years plus residency. I grew up in a funeral home business, after high school I would go to the funeral home to read death certificates. I wondered what could have been done so this person didnt die or why this person was in the wrong place at the wrong time, even why would a spouse kill the other.
When I finally finished school, and residency I was left with a few hundred thousand dollars of student loans, and about $3 in my wallet. The daunting task to find a job to pay some of the loans back was first priority. There are always plenty of jobs in this field so I landed one right away. I will always have a job unless people stop killing each other. You know that will never happen LOL. In this day and age it is probably a good choice, but most say that they didn't become a doctor MD to work on the dead.
Thanks
Mark

That's cool. What pathology did you do residency for and how long was that?

Re: Covid 19 deaths and CC question

Anonymous — Wed, 29 Sep 2021 02:32:31 GMT

@Brian_Earl_Spilner wrote:
@Anonymous wrote:
@Brian_Earl_Spilner wrote:
@Anonymous ot, but I always wanted to be a forensic pathologist. How many years of school and residency did you need?
I did it quite fast. A total of 8 years plus residency. I grew up in a funeral home business, after high school I would go to the funeral home to read death certificates. I wondered what could have been done so this person didnt die or why this person was in the wrong place at the wrong time, even why would a spouse kill the other.
When I finally finished school, and residency I was left with a few hundred thousand dollars of student loans, and about $3 in my wallet. The daunting task to find a job to pay some of the loans back was first priority. There are always plenty of jobs in this field so I landed one right away. I will always have a job unless people stop killing each other. You know that will never happen LOL. In this day and age it is probably a good choice, but most say that they didn't become a doctor MD to work on the dead.
Thanks
Mark
That's cool. What pathology did you do residency for and how long was that?

My residency was for two years. My pathology was for an additional two years. They really want to keep you broke LOL. I am sure it must have changed by now, I did this many decades ago before the internet.

Thanks

Mark

Re: Covid 19 deaths and CC question

Remedios — Wed, 29 Sep 2021 04:01:38 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:
@Brian_Earl_Spilner wrote:
@Anonymous wrote:
@Brian_Earl_Spilner wrote:
@Anonymous ot, but I always wanted to be a forensic pathologist. How many years of school and residency did you need?
I did it quite fast. A total of 8 years plus residency. I grew up in a funeral home business, after high school I would go to the funeral home to read death certificates. I wondered what could have been done so this person didnt die or why this person was in the wrong place at the wrong time, even why would a spouse kill the other.
When I finally finished school, and residency I was left with a few hundred thousand dollars of student loans, and about $3 in my wallet. The daunting task to find a job to pay some of the loans back was first priority. There are always plenty of jobs in this field so I landed one right away. I will always have a job unless people stop killing each other. You know that will never happen LOL. In this day and age it is probably a good choice, but most say that they didn't become a doctor MD to work on the dead.
Thanks
Mark
That's cool. What pathology did you do residency for and how long was that?
My residency was for two years. My pathology was for an additional two years. They really want to keep you broke LOL. I am sure it must have changed by now, I did this many decades ago before the internet.
Thanks
Mark

CP and CA are minimum of three years, always have been, and GP is four years. It hasn't changed, been set in stone since 1937.

Fellowship for forensic path (once residence is completed) is only one year provided one passes the exam and earns ABP certification, but forensics per se is not a residency field.

I am not that fresh from mine, but not removed enough to forget all those awful career path discussions

Re: Covid 19 deaths and CC question

Anonymous — Wed, 29 Sep 2021 05:29:09 GMT

@Remedios wrote:
@Anonymous wrote:
@Brian_Earl_Spilner wrote:
@Anonymous wrote:
@Brian_Earl_Spilner wrote:
@Anonymous ot, but I always wanted to be a forensic pathologist. How many years of school and residency did you need?
I did it quite fast. A total of 8 years plus residency. I grew up in a funeral home business, after high school I would go to the funeral home to read death certificates. I wondered what could have been done so this person didnt die or why this person was in the wrong place at the wrong time, even why would a spouse kill the other.
When I finally finished school, and residency I was left with a few hundred thousand dollars of student loans, and about $3 in my wallet. The daunting task to find a job to pay some of the loans back was first priority. There are always plenty of jobs in this field so I landed one right away. I will always have a job unless people stop killing each other. You know that will never happen LOL. In this day and age it is probably a good choice, but most say that they didn't become a doctor MD to work on the dead.
Thanks
Mark
That's cool. What pathology did you do residency for and how long was that?
My residency was for two years. My pathology was for an additional two years. They really want to keep you broke LOL. I am sure it must have changed by now, I did this many decades ago before the internet.
Thanks
Mark

CP and CA are minimum of three years, always have been, and GP is four years. It hasn't changed, been set in stone since 1937.
Fellowship for forensic path (once residence is completed) is only one year provided one passes the exam and earns ABP certification, but forensics per se is not a residency field.

I am not that fresh from mine, but not removed enough to forget all those awful career path discussions

I did spend more time as I first became an oncologist therefore a residency. When I was nearly finished I decided to go to forensics. I finished my residency for oncology but prior to just finishing I decided to go for forensics. My total was 8 years all combined. A long time for sure.

Thanks

Mark

Re: Covid 19 deaths and CC question

Remedios — Wed, 29 Sep 2021 18:51:28 GMT

Right, but oncology is also a fellowship because it's preceded by internal medicine residency, both are 3 years, and internal medicine isn't intradisciplinary with pathology, so it wouldn't shorten the duration of pathology residency.

That career path would be med school four years, three years of internal medicine residency, three years to pass oncology board, three years for AP/CP, followed by another year of fellowship.

Two board exams would also result in additional two to three years, written examination requires a lot of studying upon completion of residency but it's still a piece of cake compared to oral examination which really requires herculean effort.

We've now arrived at 17 years (at minimum), that's math worthy of credit card forum.

Re: Covid 19 deaths and CC question

Brian_Earl_Spilner — Wed, 29 Sep 2021 13:13:52 GMT

Yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and pass on that. By the time I'm done and paid the loans I'll be too old to enjoy the money. Lotto tickets, here I come