341 today....last minute checklist, thoughts?

[DaveInAZ]

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@twono wrote:

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Well, my Mickey D's was real busy today, i sat there in front of the judge and answered questions for 30 minutes.

I feel good about the meeting though.  Attorney said i did great.  No red flags.   Judge wants a little more info on a thing or two, which i already had in my briefcase but had taken out before i left the house this morning.  No creditors showed up.  

Trustee wants to see a credit report to show when accts were opened and 401k docs showing withdrawals from nearly 20 months ago

My attny said that the way the CC debt was filed or listed, it made the trustee believe that the accts were rather new, when in fact they are all 5-7 yrs old and i have no new accts in over 2 yrs.  

Attny said once we satisfy the trustee with the paperwork,  all will be fine.  Again, attny said no red flags and things went great.  He said it's a complicated case and that's why we charged you so much.

It was a jovial hearing....harmless banter back 'n forth between the judge, my attorney and the trustee.  

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Congrats! You're pretty much done. Yeah, 341 meetings are usually a breeze. I remember mine back in 2010. I had filled out a form and one of the questions was if I owned any livestock. I live on a 10 acre rural property so to me "livestock" means horses, cattle, etc. so I put "none". Well the lady before me apparently raised pure bred dogs for money and the trustee really grilled her about their value, how much income she earns from them, etc. I'm starting to panic as I have two dogs and I'm thinking I screwed up and should have listed them as "livestock". My turn comes up and the first question is if I answered everything on the form truthfully. I blurt out in my "confession" that I have 2 dogs, both mixed breed spayed females that I adopted from an animal shelter, and I misunderstood the question about livestock and . . . the Trustee cuts me off and tells the clerk "put down that he has 2 mutts. Next!"

[twono]

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@DaveInAZ wrote:

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@twono wrote:

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Well, my Mickey D's was real busy today, i sat there in front of the judge and answered questions for 30 minutes.

I feel good about the meeting though.  Attorney said i did great.  No red flags.   Judge wants a little more info on a thing or two, which i already had in my briefcase but had taken out before i left the house this morning.  No creditors showed up.  

Trustee wants to see a credit report to show when accts were opened and 401k docs showing withdrawals from nearly 20 months ago

My attny said that the way the CC debt was filed or listed, it made the trustee believe that the accts were rather new, when in fact they are all 5-7 yrs old and i have no new accts in over 2 yrs.  

Attny said once we satisfy the trustee with the paperwork,  all will be fine.  Again, attny said no red flags and things went great.  He said it's a complicated case and that's why we charged you so much.

It was a jovial hearing....harmless banter back 'n forth between the judge, my attorney and the trustee.  

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Congrats! You're pretty much done. Yeah, 341 meetings are usually a breeze. I remember mine back in 2010. I had filled out a form and one of the questions was if I owned any livestock. I live on a 10 acre rural property so to me "livestock" means horses, cattle, etc. so I put "none". Well the lady before me apparently raised pure bred dogs for money and the trustee really grilled her about their value, how much income she earns from them, etc. I'm starting to panic as I have two dogs and thinking I should have listed them as "livestock". My turn comes up and the first question is if I answered everything on the form truthfully. I blurt out in my "confession" that I have 2 dogs, both mixed breed spayed females that I adopted from an animal shelter, and I misunderstood the question about livestock and . . . the Trustee cuts me off and tells the clerk "put down that he has 2 mutts. Next!"

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LOL.  I had similar moment today....Trustee/judge was asking if i "can sue anybody'?  I said yes, he said 'who'?  I said nobody but don't we all have the right to sue if the situation arises?  Needless to say, i misunderstood, and said NO NO, im not suing anybody.  

And once i nodded my head to say yes, instead of saying "YES" so i was quickly told to speak my answers.  But we were sitting at what seemed like a kitchen table and only a few feet away from each other.  Almost as if we were having a cordial conversation.

[twono]

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@FireMedic1 wrote:

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@twono wrote:

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@FireMedic1 wrote:

Well then. The trustee may have had those stipulations that they wanted your lawyer to send to the court as part of the final decision. If the trustee wanted to continue the case with what you listed. They would have set another date to return and then they would sign off the case. But it appears with that sentence as all trustees do when they're done and asked to be removed. It's done as long as what was asked from you and your lawyer to follow up with. That's the only situation I can come up with at this moment.

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Makes sense with your assessment.....The trustee/judge told my attny at least twice, 'we have to talk'.  And after i was dismissed, my attny spoke for 10 mins in the hearing room with the other trustee from the US trustees office (the trustee that was asking about age of my CC accts and asking for 401k statements from 20 months ago).

Perhaps my attny and trustee made an agreement to get that info to them and they would 'sign off' on the case today?

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That makes sense. Backroom deals. From the last part of the release. It appears you were a Chapt 7. No distribution. Your cleared. But the case isnt over until the judge signs it off. Or the Discharge is finalized. If anything is off. They can recall the case. But it doesnt appear that will happen. Your x's for amounts look like your done. Cases get rescheduled if something doesnt smell right to the trustee. But from what you posted. Doesnt look like that will happen if what was asked is completed. #FingersCrossed

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The 'claims scheduled' $ amout is the same $ amount as 'claims to be discharged without payment'.

I think that's a good indicator too?

[FireMedic1]

ROTFLMAO! at both of you. Sit Fido and ScoobyDoo or I'll sue you!  

[FireMedic1]

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@twono wrote:

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@FireMedic1 wrote:

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@twono wrote:

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@FireMedic1 wrote:

Well then. The trustee may have had those stipulations that they wanted your lawyer to send to the court as part of the final decision. If the trustee wanted to continue the case with what you listed. They would have set another date to return and then they would sign off the case. But it appears with that sentence as all trustees do when they're done and asked to be removed. It's done as long as what was asked from you and your lawyer to follow up with. That's the only situation I can come up with at this moment.

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Makes sense with your assessment.....The trustee/judge told my attny at least twice, 'we have to talk'.  And after i was dismissed, my attny spoke for 10 mins in the hearing room with the other trustee from the US trustees office (the trustee that was asking about age of my CC accts and asking for 401k statements from 20 months ago).

Perhaps my attny and trustee made an agreement to get that info to them and they would 'sign off' on the case today?

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That makes sense. Backroom deals. From the last part of the release. It appears you were a Chapt 7. No distribution. Your cleared. But the case isnt over until the judge signs it off. Or the Discharge is finalized. If anything is off. They can recall the case. But it doesnt appear that will happen. Your x's for amounts look like your done. Cases get rescheduled if something doesnt smell right to the trustee. But from what you posted. Doesnt look like that will happen if what was asked is completed. #FingersCrossed

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The 'claims scheduled' $ amout is the same $ amount as 'claims to be discharged without payment'.

I think that's a good indicator too?

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Yepper. Lawyer sends in the stuff they asked. Everyones happy. Judge signs discharge. Done.

[twono]

So i got a few documents added to my PACER...

1. Trustee WITHDRAWALS report of NO DISTRIBUTION.

-Why did the trustee file a report of NO distribution on the day of the 341, only to withdrawals that report 5 days later?

2. Individual Estate and Property report that lists my assets that are subject for forfeiture.

-Some of the items on the asset report were not to be included according to my attorney.   I'm meeting with him tomorrow morning to drop off some info that the asst. trustee wanted from the 341 meeting.

Also, prior to today, my PACER showed ASSET CASE : YES....now it shows ASSET CASE:  NO

-Why the change in the type of my CH. 7?

I'll know what this means im the morning but in the meantime, is this standard operating  procedure?

[FireMedic1]

Might have been reversed until all those documents that the trustee asked for will be turned in. The last sentence "now it shows ASSET CASE: NO" Your now a no assest case. Whereas before when the additional documents were requested you were a no assest then changed to assest now back to no asset case. Is a bit confusing. Keep us updated.

[twono]

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@FireMedic1 wrote:

Might have been reversed until all those documents that the trustee asked for will be turned in. The last sentence "now it shows ASSET CASE: NO" Your now a no assest case. Whereas before when the additional documents were requested you were a no assest then changed to assest now back to no asset case. Is a bit confusing. Keep us updated.

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Thanks for the quick reply Firemedic.

The docs/info they wanted has nothing to do with the assets involved....

-credit report - To show that accts are on average 5 yrs old and no new accts in over 2 yrs.

-bank statement showing balance on day i filed - The statement cut day before 341 but was not available day of the 341.

-401k withdrawals from almost 2 yrs ago - The statements/tax docs I provided only showed the total of all withdrawals and not the individual withdrawals

-loan note on a vehicle - Creditor/title dept mix up not showing lien on original title.

-proof of insurance on vehicle(s) -Trustee making sure his soon to be acquired assets are insured until day of forfeiture

At the 341, my attorney verfied/compared the assets that were included in the BK with the trustee.  So the Trustee already had the asset info before the 341 and before he entered the "NO DISTRIBUTION' filing and his request for removal of all his duties as the trustee, etc..

[Anonymous]

I may be able to provide some clarification. First, the guy that swore you in at the 341 meeting was the bankruptcy trustee (you gathered that). Most people that file Ch 7 never meet the actual BK judge. They have court once a month to for Motions to Lift Stay, violations of the automatic stay, Chapter 13 approvals, etc. The U.S Trustee sits in on 341 meetings that they believe may have issues (but also a random sampling).

Your case was originally consdiered an asset case ("ASSET CASE: YES"). I'm sure your attorney explained the difference, but a Ch 7 wipes out debt, a Ch 13 pays some or all debt back. Certain qualifications have to be met to file a Ch 7. Without getting into a bunch of legal stuff, your case probably looked like you had enough money to pay creditors some money, which meant you may have been forced into a Ch 13. This is why the U.S. Trustee was at your 341 meeting and why it took so long. This is probably why they wanted to see your bank statements and your 401k statements. Cash in the bank is not exempt in most states (if any), so if you had much money there, they may have been eyeballing it.

They are also looking for fraud. Not only in the asset issue mentioned above, but when the debt was accrued. That's why they wanted your credit reports. If you took out a bunch of credit cards and ran them up, with the plan to file bankruptcy, that would be considered fraud. Also, a reason the U.S. Trustee would be interested in your case.

As far as them filing the No Distribution report, this was probably just an oversight. Legal assistants/paralegals are often the ones that file these. It's a quick electronic process after the meeting. They may have missed the note that additional docs were requested. It's not the end of the world. Once you provide the docs and your atty gives them to the trustee, you may very well be fine. 

If your atty is not concerned, you don't need to be. As stated earlier, attorneys deal with the same trustees and judge every month. Many of the same issues come up over and over.

Oh, and the insurance...everyone is required to provide the declarations page of the insurance on vehicles that are subject to liens invloved in the BK. That's normal.

Hope that helps! Let us know what your atty says

[twono]

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@Anonymous wrote:

I may be able to provide some clarification. First, the guy that swore you in at the 341 meeting was the bankruptcy trustee (you gathered that). Most people that file Ch 7 never meet the actual BK judge. They have court once a month to for Motions to Lift Stay, violations of the automatic stay, Chapter 13 approvals, etc. The U.S Trustee sits in on 341 meetings that they believe may have issues (but also a random sampling).

Your case was originally consdiered an asset case ("ASSET CASE: YES"). I'm sure your attorney explained the difference, but a Ch 7 wipes out debt, a Ch 13 pays some or all debt back. Certain qualifications have to be met to file a Ch 7. Without getting into a bunch of legal stuff, your case probably looked like you had enough money to pay creditors some money, which meant you may have been forced into a Ch 13. This is why the U.S. Trustee was at your 341 meeting and why it took so long. This is probably why they wanted to see your bank statements and your 401k statements. Cash in the bank is not exempt in most states (if any), so if you had much money there, they may have been eyeballing it.

I was under the median income for ch.7 by about $7000, so well below the threshold.  I have several CU savings accts with $5 balances and those balances are from opening the CU membeship.   $5 deposits are often needed to join.  A total of $35.  But that money is not available for me to withdrawal anyway.  My attny filed these $5 savings accts when he filed my case, but i had to bring those statements to the 341 showing the balances on the date of my filing, of which i did provide at the 341.  All is good there.

I also had to bring to the 341 my direct deposit checking acct statement, that showed the balance on the day i filed.  Less than $60.  But it wasn't available online until the day after my 341.  So the only additional bank statement that i had to provide is being given this morning when i meet with the attny.

As far as the 401k statements go,....the 401k statements i provided just show a lump sum withdrawn for the 2018 tax year.  The 'sit-in' trustee wants to see the individual withdrawals.  The concern is to make sure i didn't take them out recently and over a long period of time that could be included as income?, is my thinking.  I hit the 401k hard within a month (20 months ago), to again, stay afloat.  Biggest mistake of my life.  Had to quit my job to get to my employer contributed 401k funds.  I should have filed 20 months ago.  I only delayed the inevitable and depleted my life savings.

There has been no mention/discussion/conversation by my attny concerning a Ch. 13.

They are also looking for fraud. Not only in the asset issue mentioned above, but when the debt was accrued. That's why they wanted your credit reports. If you took out a bunch of credit cards and ran them up, with the plan to file bankruptcy, that would be considered fraud. Also, a reason the U.S. Trustee would be interested in your case.

The 'sit-in' US trustee said exactly this....'Looks like your balances went up rather quickly on your credit cards.'  I quickly said no, no....All my cards average 5yrs of age and no new accts in over 2 yrs and 0 inquiries on my credit reports except for co-signing for a student loan for my daughter and 2 inquiries by 2 banks IIB , post BK filing date.

Credit cards were not used since lst of April.  No large purchases on luxury items or anything of the sort.....Only BT's and CA's (cash advances to stay afloat and pay bills.  Borrowing debt to pay debt.  Cash from cash advances wasn't withdrawn from banks.  Just transferred to banks and paid bills from there.).  Attny said 70 days between last BT/CA and the time of filing but it was closer to 90 days.

As far as them filing the No Distribution report, this was probably just an oversight. Legal assistants/paralegals are often the ones that file these. It's a quick electronic process after the meeting. They may have missed the note that additional docs were requested. It's not the end of the world. Once you provide the docs and your atty gives them to the trustee, you may very well be fine. 

And this is what my attny told me after the 341....Just get the requested paperwork to him and satisfy the trustee and all is good.  My attny is a trustee as well.  For about 20 yrs.  Practicing for 30.  Attny gave me absolutely no hint of a problem with my 7 filing.  Pretty much standard operating procedure is what i was told.

If your atty is not concerned, you don't need to be. As stated earlier, attorneys deal with the same trustees and judge every month. Many of the same issues come up over and over.

Oh, and the insurance...everyone is required to provide the declarations page of the insurance on vehicles that are subject to liens invloved in the BK. That's normal.

Yep.  Trustee said he didn't have room for these assets.  Asked if i wanted to buy them back.  Guess he was insinuating that the vehicles may be staying in my locked garage for some time and wanted to make sure they are fully covered, of which they are and have been for many yrs.  

Hope that helps! Let us know what your atty says

Thank you for your insight!

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