3 card No AF lineup; which bank wins

[increasingmyfico]

Cash back unlike rewards points don't need to be in the same family. Go for the best three cards no matter the issuer. I would say Amex BCP, Citi Custom Cash and a good base earner. 

[Anonymalous]

---

@Reithe wrote:

There's nothing particularly special about a "trifecta" and people who don't spend that much to begin with may not get as much value from juggling multiple credit cards, especially if the issuer doesn't allow pooling of rewards points. For "frugal" spenders, two cards would be fine: a flat-rate card and a card that offers bonus points in their highest spending categories. Wells Fargo Active Cash & Amex Blue Cash Everyday are a solid cash back combo with no AF. 

---

I largely agree. After the single card setup, the natural next step is a two-card setup. The flat rate card could include any of the various 2% cards, or maybe a slightly lower rate card if the card has other perks that appealing (NFCU Cash Rewards, Chase Freedom Unlimited, even something with a low AF like the U.S. Bank Shopper or NFCU Flagship, etc.). The second card would typically give 3% in a ton of useful categories (like the WF Autograph, Cap1 Savor One, or the NFCU More Rewards), but a card that gives 5% in some important but narrower categories and which requires limited effort to manage (like the Elan Max Cash Preferred, the Citi Custom Cash, or the Amazon Prime), or even a low AF card with higher categories (the Amex Blue Cash Preferred come to mind) would make a good pair.

By the time you get to 3 cards, you might as well get 4 or 5.

[Citylights18]

When you have the level of points (1 mil+) I have it starts to come down to form and function of where the spend is going.

Utilities: Business cards.

Dining: 0% APR cards.

Groceries/Gas: Card with the best current spend.

Travel: Pay for it with points.

Loans: Line of Credit

Dining is never more than about 3% anyway so having that on a promotional card is a good idea. Double stack unstructured (non-loan) and structured (loan) debt with a line of credit.  Maximize monthly cash flow.

[Aim_High]

---

@Citylights18 wrote:

 ... Dining: 0% APR cards ... 

... Dining is never more than about 3% anyway so

having that on a promotional card is a good idea.

---

I totally don't follow this @Citylights18.  Regardless of whether someone seeks pure cash back or travel points, there are several cards that pay in excess of 3% on dining.  Here are a few.

• Citi Custom Cash - 5% (up to $500 monthly)
• Capital One Savor - 4%
• US Bank Altitude Go - 4%
• Discover IT - 5% rotating category

Bank of America Customized Cash Rewards (up to $10K annual spend cap):

• (Gold Preferred Honors status - $20K) - 3.75%
• (Platinum Preferred Honors status - $50K) - 4.50%
• (Platinum Honors Preferred Rewards status - $100K) - 5.25%

Bank of America Premium Rewards with Platinum Honors - $100K:

• 3.5% cash back (uncapped)

• AMEX Gold card - 4x MR per dollar worth 1 to 2 cpp or sometimes more - 4 to 8%
• Chase Sapphire Reserve - 3x UR per dollar worth 1.5 to 2 cpp for travel 4.5 to 6%
• Citi Premier - 3x TY per dollar worth up to 1.8 cpp or 5.4%
• World of Hyatt card - 2x per dollar worth up to 3.4%
• Hilton Surpass - 6x per dollar worth up to 3.6%
• Citi AAdvantage Platinum - 2x per dollar worth up to 3.4%

I'm sure I missed other examples.  I see a lot more rewards in dining than any benefit in putting charges on a low APR card, even if travel points aren't immediately beneficial. 

[Citylights18]

---

@Aim_High wrote:

---

@Citylights18 wrote:

 ... Dining: 0% APR cards ... 

... Dining is never more than about 3% anyway so

having that on a promotional card is a good idea.

---

I totally don't follow this @Citylights18.  Regardless of whether someone seeks pure cash back or travel points, there are several cards that pay in excess of 3% on dining.  Here are a few.

• Citi Custom Cash - 5% (up to $500 monthly)
• Capital One Savor - 4%
• US Bank Altitude Go - 4%
• Discover IT - 5% rotating category

Bank of America Customized Cash Rewards (up to $10K annual spend cap):

• (Gold Preferred Honors status - $20K) - 3.75%
• (Platinum Preferred Honors status - $50K) - 4.50%
• (Platinum Honors Preferred Rewards status - $100K) - 5.25%

Bank of America Premium Rewards with Platinum Honors - $100K:

• 3.5% cash back (uncapped)

• AMEX Gold card - 4x MR per dollar worth 1 to 2 cpp or sometimes more - 4 to 8%
• Chase Sapphire Reserve - 3x UR per dollar worth 1.5 to 2 cpp for travel 4.5 to 6%
• Citi Premier - 3x TY per dollar worth up to 1.8 cpp or 5.4%
• World of Hyatt card - 2x per dollar worth up to 3.4%
• Hilton Surpass - 6x per dollar worth up to 3.6%
• Citi AAdvantage Platinum - 2x per dollar worth up to 3.4%

I'm sure I missed other examples.  I see a lot more rewards in dining than any benefit in putting charges on a low APR card, even if travel points aren't immediately beneficial. 

---

When I say 3% I mean a solid 3% after the AF. If you're only spending $5,000 in dining a year on 3% that's 15,000 points ($150) but then you have a $95 dollar AF is eating into it.

CCP point value equivalencies can be subjective. Certain travel partners give better point values and depending the type of redemptions pursued you'll receive a different value for your points.

When you are getting into Grocery and Gas more regualrly are you able to get 5%+ because of rotators and promotions. I'm currently on a 10x promotion through one of my Chase cards.

Grocery and gas you have to use but dining I view as a discretionary expense. 

[wasCB14]

---

@Citylights18 wrote:

---

When I say 3% I mean a solid 3% after the AF. If you're only spending $5,000 in dining a year on 3% that's 15,000 points ($150) but then you have a $95 dollar AF is eating into it.

---

Losing $95 out of $150 cash back to an annual fee would be bad...but how closely does that scenario reflect reality?

1. AF cards often have big SUBs.

2. AF cards often have various credits.

3. AF cards often provide greater point values through travel redemptions or airline/hotel transfers.

Your scenario sounds bad, but paying $95 for a card that gives 3% on dining with no other useful features would be an unusually poor value by MF standards.

[Citylights18]

---

@wasCB14 wrote:

---

@Citylights18 wrote:

---

When I say 3% I mean a solid 3% after the AF. If you're only spending $5,000 in dining a year on 3% that's 15,000 points ($150) but then you have a $95 dollar AF is eating into it.

---

Losing $95 out of $150 cash back to an annual fee would be bad...but how closely does that scenario reflect reality?

1. AF cards often have big SUBs.

2. AF cards often have various credits.

3. AF cards often provide greater point values through travel redemptions or airline/hotel transfers.

Your scenario sounds bad, but paying $95 for a card that gives 3% on dining with no other useful features would be an unusually poor value by MF standards.

---

I've never believed in the equivlancey of SUBs and AFs. I've viewed the SUB as a reserve bank of points. I've always compared the AFs to the earning rate of the card, specifcally the category I plan to use it in.

CSP with its $95 AF is still in my view the number 1 card when you factor in also getting 5% on the Chase travel portal, 5% on Lyft, Dashpass, 3% for online groceries and the 1.25 point redemptions. It would be possible to run enough spend on it to have a large enough 10% annual points bonus to pay for the AF. The Freedom cards of course don't even have an annual fee on them.

At primacy though is cash flow. I would take out a loan instead of buy on a credit card for points if it is better for cash flow. Actually a mix of unstructured and structured debt is best. Put 10,000 on a credit card to pay with points then get a loan for a 30k project at $400 a month. Put the full 10k and the $400 bill on a CLOC. Montly payment interest only of $80 a month. Then take extra revenue to pay down the CLOC. Yes you are paying a little bit of interest that way but your monthly cash flow is better than coming up with $400 and $100 for the CC respectively out of pocket.

On a different subject, I could for example put my utility spend on a 5% personal card reducing my personal cash flow but I choose to accept a 2% cash back on my utilities paying by business card to increase my personal cash flow. Utilities of course are on properties used in the business but I pay the mortgages through personal. Doing it this way I don't need to have a deep of a business checking account and can pay off the business debt with the excess business revenue.

[wasCB14]

---

@Citylights18 wrote:

---

@wasCB14 wrote:

---

@Citylights18 wrote:

---

When I say 3% I mean a solid 3% after the AF. If you're only spending $5,000 in dining a year on 3% that's 15,000 points ($150) but then you have a $95 dollar AF is eating into it.

---

Losing $95 out of $150 cash back to an annual fee would be bad...but how closely does that scenario reflect reality?

1. AF cards often have big SUBs.

2. AF cards often have various credits.

3. AF cards often provide greater point values through travel redemptions or airline/hotel transfers.

Your scenario sounds bad, but paying $95 for a card that gives 3% on dining with no other useful features would be an unusually poor value by MF standards.

---

I've never believed in the equivlancey of SUBs and AFs. I've viewed the SUB as a reserve bank of points. I've always compared the AFs to the earning rate of the card, specifcally the category I plan to use it in.

CSP with its $95 AF is still in my view the number 1 card when you factor in also getting 5% on the Chase travel portal, 5% on Lyft, Dashpass, 3% for online groceries and the 1.25 point redemptions. It would be possible to run enough spend on it to have a large enough 10% annual points bonus to pay for the AF. The Freedom cards of course don't even have an annual fee on them.

At primacy though is cash flow. I would take out a loan instead of buy on a credit card for points if it is better for cash flow. Actually a mix of unstructured and structured debt is best. Put 10,000 on a credit card to pay with points then get a loan for a 30k project at $400 a month. Put the full 10k and the $400 bill on a CLOC. Montly payment interest only of $80 a month. Then take extra revenue to pay down the CLOC. Yes you are paying a little bit of interest that way but your monthly cash flow is better than coming up with $400 and $100 for the CC respectively out of pocket.

On a different subject, I could for example put my utility spend on a 5% personal card reducing my personal cash flow but I choose to accept a 2% cash back on my utilities paying by business card to increase my personal cash flow. Utilities of course are on properties used in the business but I pay the mortgages through personal. Doing it this way I don't need to have a deep of a business checking account and can pay off the business debt with the excess business revenue.

---

Are you sure you're getting a 10% point bonus on CSP? I thought the 10% was for Freedom and 7% was for CSP...and that (a few old Freedoms perhaps excepted) both bonuses ended a while ago. But if you're spending that much on a CSP, then CSR may be worth a look for additional points and the 1.5 cpp redemptions instead of 1.25. But last I checked CSR had become a bit "Amex Platinum-like" with weird credits and annual fee growth.

My problem is less with needing business credit and more with uninvested business cash losing value to inflation. So cash flow isn't too much a concern.

[Citylights18]

---

@wasCB14 wrote:

---

@Citylights18 wrote:

---

@wasCB14 wrote:

---

@Citylights18 wrote:

---

When I say 3% I mean a solid 3% after the AF. If you're only spending $5,000 in dining a year on 3% that's 15,000 points ($150) but then you have a $95 dollar AF is eating into it.

---

Losing $95 out of $150 cash back to an annual fee would be bad...but how closely does that scenario reflect reality?

1. AF cards often have big SUBs.

2. AF cards often have various credits.

3. AF cards often provide greater point values through travel redemptions or airline/hotel transfers.

Your scenario sounds bad, but paying $95 for a card that gives 3% on dining with no other useful features would be an unusually poor value by MF standards.

---

I've never believed in the equivlancey of SUBs and AFs. I've viewed the SUB as a reserve bank of points. I've always compared the AFs to the earning rate of the card, specifcally the category I plan to use it in.

CSP with its $95 AF is still in my view the number 1 card when you factor in also getting 5% on the Chase travel portal, 5% on Lyft, Dashpass, 3% for online groceries and the 1.25 point redemptions. It would be possible to run enough spend on it to have a large enough 10% annual points bonus to pay for the AF. The Freedom cards of course don't even have an annual fee on them.

At primacy though is cash flow. I would take out a loan instead of buy on a credit card for points if it is better for cash flow. Actually a mix of unstructured and structured debt is best. Put 10,000 on a credit card to pay with points then get a loan for a 30k project at $400 a month. Put the full 10k and the $400 bill on a CLOC. Montly payment interest only of $80 a month. Then take extra revenue to pay down the CLOC. Yes you are paying a little bit of interest that way but your monthly cash flow is better than coming up with $400 and $100 for the CC respectively out of pocket.

On a different subject, I could for example put my utility spend on a 5% personal card reducing my personal cash flow but I choose to accept a 2% cash back on my utilities paying by business card to increase my personal cash flow. Utilities of course are on properties used in the business but I pay the mortgages through personal. Doing it this way I don't need to have a deep of a business checking account and can pay off the business debt with the excess business revenue.

---

Are you sure you're getting a 10% point bonus on CSP? I thought the 10% was for Freedom and 7% was for CSP...and that (a few old Freedoms perhaps excepted) both bonuses ended a while ago. But if you're spending that much on a CSP, then CSR may be worth a look for additional points and the 1.5 cpp redemptions instead of 1.25. But last I checked CSR had become a bit "Amex Platinum-like" with weird credits and annual fee growth.

My problem is less with needing business credit and more with uninvested business cash losing value to inflation. So cash flow isn't too much a concern.

---

CSP within the last year or so reinstated the 10% anniversary boost. The boost I'm referring to that if you could earn 95,000 points on the card (9500 boost) it would pay your AF back.

https://thepointsguy.com/guide/chase-sapphire-preferred-vs-chase-sapphire-reserve/

Based on the benefits listed the only way you would benefit from a CSR is if you bought enough travel to outweigh the AF.

The net AF of the CSR is $250 after the travel credit and $95 for the CSP. The difference between the two is $155 or 15,500 points. However since the CSP is already giving you 5x in Lyft, Hotels and Rental Cars to match the difference in AF one would have to spend $3,100 through the travel portal annually.

Speaking from experience I have never purchased any travel through the travel portal. The only time I've even touched my points was to move them to Southwest for 2.0 ccp redemption. I've used my Hyatt points on travel and I've bought travel through Hyatt to meet promotions but not even once have I bought travel through the Chase travel portal or even reedemed points through it.

Hyatt is also giving me the 10x promotion on gas and 5x on groceries. You won't see that bonus on a CSR. If I'm just going to move my points from my CSP to Hyatt anyways its like to me earning Ultimate Rewards.

[Bubblewhale]

Kinda hard to stay with one bank to maximize rewards without some certain status(EX. BoA Platinum Honors).

I'd be fine running a Citi DC, Citi CCC, and C1 SavorOne if I could choose between issuers. 

Citi DC for 2% Catchall

Citi CCC for 5% Gas

C1 SavorOne for 3% Dining, Groceries. 

These generally cover all usual daily spending categories and I think it would be more than enough as a 3 card setup. 

If I had to stay with one issuer, nothing beats Citi for pure cashback. Citi DC for 2.2% catchall, Citi Rewards+ for 2.2% Groceries/Gas, Citi CC for 5.55% Dining. However I'd would just PC any non Citi CC card to get multiple CC cards instead to maximize cashback.