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AMEX feeling the heat

BronzeTrader
Valued Contributor

Re: AMEX feeling the heat

It's so clear that Citi, BA, Chase and AmEx are so different. Look at the table.
Message 31 of 59
BronzeTrader
Valued Contributor

Re: AMEX feeling the heat

Yes, Chase offers such impressive lineup of the cards and the perks. But the perks don't get them the revenue, but only drain its income. I believe Chase CC business is mainly from its acquisition of Bank One years back. It was the largest standalone CCC before Chase acquired it. Surprised that it's performance is not the impressive.

On the other hand, look at Discover. It doesn't offer those high level perks, but it caters to the less affluent people. 5% on gas and grocery is more important than 3% on air tickets and Ritz Carlton stays. Those people with $1,000 CL will be more likely to carry balance than the people with 20,000 CL. Or Discover CC portfolio is more performing.
Message 32 of 59
Shep_634
Member

Re: AMEX feeling the heat

I would disagree that rewards don't net income in the end, I would say maybe for Chase specifically it might be less if the marketing campaign isn't garnering expected results but between transaction fees, associated fees (lates, annuals, etc), APR rates earned from revolver type consumers, marketing partnerships (i.e. citi/costco), huge gains are able to be made. Hence the fine prints (Disco 5% up to XX.xx in Y category). On the consumer end there is also the "need" to maximize cards, "have to hit 4,000 in 3mo for sign up bonuses" or "have to spend XX to justify Y cost." Most people end up with more transactions than normal. Add into that equation 90% of people aren't savvy enough to maximize reward value... "oh I have enough points to get A gift card for $25.00" and end up burning 5,000 points getting a half cent redemption rate
Message 33 of 59
redpat
Senior Contributor

Re: AMEX feeling the heat


@BronzeTrader wrote:
Yes, Chase offers such impressive lineup of the cards and the perks. But the perks don't get them the revenue, but only drain its income. I believe Chase CC business is mainly from its acquisition of Bank One years back. It was the largest standalone CCC before Chase acquired it. Surprised that it's performance is not the impressive.

On the other hand, look at Discover. It doesn't offer those high level perks, but it caters to the less affluent people. 5% on gas and grocery is more important than 3% on air tickets and Ritz Carlton stays. Those people with $1,000 CL will be more likely to carry balance than the people with 20,000 CL. Or Discover CC portfolio is more performing.

Totally disagree here.  I had discover and closed mine my wife was an AU on it.  She ended up getting her own just for the pink card. My income is in the six figures and including my wife, we are well into the six figures.  It's her main card and uses it more than any card she has.  She could care or less about rewards, she just likes her pink credit card and carries no balance.

 

When she goes away on girls weekends they stay where they want to stay (The Four Seasons for that matter) and spend what they want to spend not giving a crap about what card to use for the best spend and point category.  I'm the one that suffers for that.......Lol!



Personal Cards: Amex Plat | Amex Delta Res | Amex Hilton | CSR | Citi AA Exec Business Cards: Ink+ | Amex BGR
Message 34 of 59
CO_NATIVE
Valued Contributor

Re: AMEX feeling the heat


@Shep_634 wrote:
Did anyone else read the WSJ article this morning on AMEX vs competitors? I know that it has been a subject (rewards being better from other creditors) that has been talked about fairly frequently in forums/blogs, but this is the second or third time in the last few weeks that I have seen articles like this in major papers. The articles make it seem like AMEX is fairly confident about this year going forward... What are people's thoughts? Is Amex going to roll out some new stuff this year (rewards structure/ big sign on bonuses) or just AMEX being over confident?

I have my little Green Card and my Cap1 QS (I've never really wanted more than two cards because I am not really a rewards chaser until my expenses changed recently, hence the Green Card), but I was thinking about applying for an AMEX EDP; I am thinking about putting it off for awhile to see if AMEX tries some big Q1 promo to boost itself back up....

As a complete side note, am I the only 30yo that still reads a physical newspaper?!? Kid at the counter stared at me like I had 6 heads when I answered his question as to why I read the paper and not the news on my phone with "I prefer to not use my phone for everything" ...maybe my wife is right and I was born in the wrong generation 😂😂😂 (apologies for any typos...I do at least use my phone to post)

This reminds me of a conversation I had with my aunt, who lives in Florida, about what the big deal was with Boca Raton (loosely translated, Rats Mouth!). Her response, "Boca Raton is new money, Palm Beach is old money." So, in this case, Chase for the most part, is kind of like new money, younger people looking for a quick bonus or a flashy card, while Amex is old money. Amex has a huge peice of annual credit card spend because a lot of wealthy people run a lot of money through their Amex's.  Amex is not going anywhere and for people not in the know, it is still a huge status symbol and accomplishment to be approved for an Amex card. 

 

I do feel that Amex is loosing its touch and they need to start working on getting younger customers. Amex, in my perception is kind of like how General Motors, and really the entire American automotive sector was in the 1960s. Arrogant. They ruled the land and didn't care much about quality and reliability they just figured people would continue to buy cars because they did not really have any other choice. Then the Japanese cars came and people bought them (with some help with oil embargos), found out how reliable they were and here we are now in 2017 with Toyota and Honda ruling the land with their generic, soulless appliances. Point being, if Amex continues without some changes Chase really will replace them as the de facto status symbol and go to card of the wealthy-in the future. All my opinion and conjecture, of course. 

 

And a 1986 baby reading a physical newspaper? I am taking your Millennial card away. You probably still shop at the mall and balance your checkbook....SMH Smiley Very Happy


Message 35 of 59
Shep_634
Member

Re: AMEX feeling the heat

Hahaha, malls creep me out, the son of a banker here so yes I can (but don't) balance a checkbook and don't get me started on why I'm 100% ok with losing my Millennial Card. Forum doesn't have space for my rants about the entitled arrogance of my generation...

More to your point though; I think AMEX WANTS to be the status symbol; however the threshold for getting in is pretty low IMO... me for instance, typical college idiot; cards were money when I didn't have any and for almost 11 years I only used a debit card; to the extent that I had ZERO credit. No cards, no loans, nothing 6months after getting a Cap1 l, AMEX "let me in"... I had 700+ scores, but realistically they meant nothing once someone looked at my actual reports. Obviously AMEX would rather have a thin file than a bad one, but hardly the status card my grandfather had way back in the day.

I do agree though that they need to adapt, look how far discover came. My father has been with them since they were just a Sears card essentially and now a large group would argue that they are the wowing customer service that was AmEX. ...even if their heartless recon reps don't like a great 30yo reader of the paper😂😂😊
Message 36 of 59
wanderingbuilder
Valued Contributor

Re: AMEX feeling the heat

in my experience, only older generation cashiers seem to care when I pay  with Amex.

I had a kid at Smashburger snootily tell me I couldn't pay for my milkshake with Amex last night.

Message 37 of 59
kdm31091
Super Contributor

Re: AMEX feeling the heat


@Shep_634 wrote:
I would disagree that rewards don't net income in the end, I would say maybe for Chase specifically it might be less if the marketing campaign isn't garnering expected results but between transaction fees, associated fees (lates, annuals, etc), APR rates earned from revolver type consumers, marketing partnerships (i.e. citi/costco), huge gains are able to be made. Hence the fine prints (Disco 5% up to XX.xx in Y category). On the consumer end there is also the "need" to maximize cards, "have to hit 4,000 in 3mo for sign up bonuses" or "have to spend XX to justify Y cost." Most people end up with more transactions than normal. Add into that equation 90% of people aren't savvy enough to maximize reward value... "oh I have enough points to get A gift card for $25.00" and end up burning 5,000 points getting a half cent redemption rate

I agree that most people aren't savvy enough and/or just don't expend the effort to care. In the example of Discover, I am sure many people never even notice or activate the 5% categories and just happily swipe the card for everything at 1%. Most people just redeem their points for what they want without obsessing over the "value" they're getting.

 

As far as Amex, I'm just not sure a majority of younger customers really notice or care about differences in reward and redemption rates and will probably apply for the card they see or hear about the most more than anything.

Message 38 of 59
BronzeTrader
Valued Contributor

Re: AMEX feeling the heat


@longtimelurker wrote:

@jfriend33 wrote:

They did lose a little. But there strategy will pay off.

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/churning/comments/5oucdq/the_economics_of_churning_who_pays_for_the_rewards...


OT, but there is a great table in the comments on that link showing income from interest vs interchange

 

         Bank                       Interest     Interchange

                                        revenue    fee revenue

American Express$1.346B$4.985B
Chase$2.218B$2.014B
Wells Fargo$2.597B$2.374B
Bank of America$6.998B$3.084B
Capital One$7.821B$1.572B
Citibank$11.377B$1.410B
Discover$5.456B$0.520B
Barclays$2.148B$0.231B

If we believe in those numbers, then it is Chase to feel the heat, not the AmEx feeling the heat. They are doing well. The new Blue lineup is going to draw some new and young generation. I've seen quite some people using the AmEx Blue cards.

 

Message 39 of 59
longtimelurker
Mega Contributor

Re: AMEX feeling the heat


@BronzeTrader wrote:

@longtimelurker wrote:

@jfriend33 wrote:

They did lose a little. But there strategy will pay off.

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/churning/comments/5oucdq/the_economics_of_churning_who_pays_for_the_rewards...


OT, but there is a great table in the comments on that link showing income from interest vs interchange

 

         Bank                       Interest     Interchange

                                        revenue    fee revenue

American Express$1.346B$4.985B
Chase$2.218B$2.014B
Wells Fargo$2.597B$2.374B
Bank of America$6.998B$3.084B
Capital One$7.821B$1.572B
Citibank$11.377B$1.410B
Discover$5.456B$0.520B
Barclays$2.148B$0.231B

If we believe in those numbers, then it is Chase to feel the heat, not the AmEx feeling the heat. They are doing well. The new Blue lineup is going to draw some new and young generation. I've seen quite some people using the AmEx Blue cards.

 


Table was 3Q 2016.   The BCP/BCE came out several years ago, the ED and EDP by 2014.   So I don't think they are particularly "new" compared to some offerings from the other banks listed

Message 40 of 59
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