Amex is losing best western

[Open123]

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@yfan wrote:

Same thing applies to hotels. Unless one travels all the time, chances are pretty good cash prices are going to be good at a place you may not have the credit card for. Given the slowness of point build-up without frequent travel, one may wish to go for an inexpensive place to stay even if it comes without the bells and whistles and "status."

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This, I do agree with.  With hotels, it's usually more cost effective to find good deals (orbitz, hotels.com, etc...), search for hotel promos, and seasonal deals.

[yfan]

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@Open123 wrote:

Of course, one would have to consider the fees and redeem accordingly based on prudence.  

For instance, BA fees are exorbitant when flying on their metal and outside North America, but fuel charges are not assessed when redeemed through AA.  Even in some cases, if one were to find a way too book an AA flight to Europe from BA's website, no fuel charges.  Many carriers don't charge excessive fees and/or fuel costs.  Naturally, when redeeming, we stick to those, and never redeem when there are excessive costs.  Again, we redeem prudently for the best value at a given time, not just haphazardly without understanding the cost vs. benefit of each carrier, each route, and respective cabin class.

So, in the case of BA, when redeemed for a domestic flight via AA, it is virtually free.  I mean, may cost about $10 or $20 bucks for processing?  Charge that with a Venture, Barclay, or use Airline credits and/or GCs...etc

*Edited*  PS - Anyone booking flights and paying excessive fuel charges and taxes aren't doing so prudently.

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This goes to partly what I'm talking about. Point redemption at what can be considered best value takes a lot of research, flexibility and timing. Yet those well-researched and time-adjusted amounts are then compared to straight cash prices, without doing the same amount of detailed research and allowing the comparable (comparable, because the reach of cash is bigger) amount of flexibility in destination and timing to determine the value of those points. To me that strikes as no more accurate than if one were to pick a cash sale and compared that to random point redemption to show "bad" value.

Ultimately it comes down to personal preference, value proposition and what makes you feel rewarded. That's why these are called rewards, after all.

[Anonymous]

For those who like the challenge, Avios is a fantastic currency for domestic travel within the US and even some latin american countries. For everything else, build up those cash rewards.

[kdm31091]

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@jsucool76 wrote:

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@yfan wrote:

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@Open123 wrote:

Right, Amex's travel rewards programs are, for whatever reason, really misunderstood by those new to CC rewards.  

This confusion is often exacerbated by those who prefer cash rewards expressing their discontent with Amex's offerings.  In this case, they're absolutely right.  For the person who prefers cash and will likely *never* board a plane or stay in a hotel, will likely find Amex's offerings and rewards underwhelming.

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But that's not true. One does not need to never travel in order to find little value in points rewards. As I have said multiple times before, point "valuations" necessarily ignore cash sales and alternatives. Even if you take BA Avios, which are considered some of the most valuable curencies, taxes and surcharges will require you to spend a lot in cash. While SF to London is 16200 Avios each way for Economy class (32400 total), you have to pay taxes and carrier charges on top of that, which amount to $691.49 per person. In contrast, it isn't that hard to find $1,000 round trip flights from SF to London in regular searches (depending on time of travel), and less if one catches a cash sale, athough it may not be a BA flight. Not to mention London doesn't have to be the destination for flexible travel planners.

Same thing applies to hotels. Unless one travels all the time, chances are pretty good cash prices are going to be good at a place you may not have the credit card for. Given the slowness of point build-up without frequent travel, one may wish to go for an inexpensive place to stay even if it comes without the bells and whistles and "status."

There's also the fact that OTA-branded cards are making it easier to earn rewards across airlines and hotels, though their redemption options are often limited (e.g. for Orbitz rewards, it can only be redeemed on prepaid hotel bookings through Orbitz, but it can be redeemed in any amount).

With respect to Amex, the TE card is a great cashback value propostion, and its going away is a shame. I find the BCE to be valuable as well for the small amount of grocery shopping I do outside of Costco. I do plan on keeping an Amex card, not for the cashback so much as for their CS and benefits. I rent cars a few times a year for long trips, and Amex's optional primary CDW coverage is basically unrivaled, as it applies to SUVs and vehicles even other "primary" coverage cards won't cover.

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I actually agree with some of what yfan is saying here, but there are some points I disagree with. 

While points definitely take time to understand and research, not all points are created equal, in many respects. For instance, with an arrival or venture card you can book any ticket you want. No surcharges or award fees. and a $1,000 ticket to london will be 100k points. That seems like a lot, but if you're not using points for anything else then whatever. With the citi family of products, a $1000 ticket with prestige is only 62,500 points (on AA/US) or 75k points on any other carrier. and with premier it would be 80k on any airlines. 

While the point costs of these flights are all higher, the actual costs can be lower. it saves you time, it means you don't need to learn the ins and outs of EVERY frequent flyer mile in the world to decide where to transfer your points to, and it gives you the freedom to fly on whatever airline you want. Also, you don't NEED To have enough points to do it....you can always say "well I have 10,000 points so lets take a little bit off the cost" 

While BA allows points and cash bookings as well, their currency is useless for anything that crosses an ocean. 

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But what is the point in booking with an arrival or venture? The "miles" are marketing, and are the same thing as double cash or fidelity amex, etc. 

[Anonymous]

The point is in the sign up bonus if applicable. 😏

[kdm31091]

Like any discussion about this, it boils down to preference. If one travels a lot and wants to expend effort into maximizing points they can provide good value. For me, cash back is better and I can get 10 percent off of orbitz and travelocity through upromise, so thats good enough for me! But I don't travel much

[yfan]

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@jsucool76 wrote:
Also, double post.

As far as amex's CDW, it is a good option, however, ritz card still has primary coverage that covers everything except exotics basically (Cash value of like $150k+ i think it is) . And I'm not going to go out on vacation and rent anything like that.

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Perhaps, but I don't have the Ritz card, and have no need or intention to get one. I just wouldn't spend enough or use enough of its benefits to make up the AF.

[CreditCuriosity]

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@Anonymous wrote:
I'd never use Avios to actually fly to UK. That is all.

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Exactly.. Very bad use if you did that.

[jsucool76]

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@kdm31091 wrote:

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@jsucool76 wrote:

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@yfan wrote:

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@Open123 wrote:

Right, Amex's travel rewards programs are, for whatever reason, really misunderstood by those new to CC rewards.  

This confusion is often exacerbated by those who prefer cash rewards expressing their discontent with Amex's offerings.  In this case, they're absolutely right.  For the person who prefers cash and will likely *never* board a plane or stay in a hotel, will likely find Amex's offerings and rewards underwhelming.

---

But that's not true. One does not need to never travel in order to find little value in points rewards. As I have said multiple times before, point "valuations" necessarily ignore cash sales and alternatives. Even if you take BA Avios, which are considered some of the most valuable curencies, taxes and surcharges will require you to spend a lot in cash. While SF to London is 16200 Avios each way for Economy class (32400 total), you have to pay taxes and carrier charges on top of that, which amount to $691.49 per person. In contrast, it isn't that hard to find $1,000 round trip flights from SF to London in regular searches (depending on time of travel), and less if one catches a cash sale, athough it may not be a BA flight. Not to mention London doesn't have to be the destination for flexible travel planners.

Same thing applies to hotels. Unless one travels all the time, chances are pretty good cash prices are going to be good at a place you may not have the credit card for. Given the slowness of point build-up without frequent travel, one may wish to go for an inexpensive place to stay even if it comes without the bells and whistles and "status."

There's also the fact that OTA-branded cards are making it easier to earn rewards across airlines and hotels, though their redemption options are often limited (e.g. for Orbitz rewards, it can only be redeemed on prepaid hotel bookings through Orbitz, but it can be redeemed in any amount).

With respect to Amex, the TE card is a great cashback value propostion, and its going away is a shame. I find the BCE to be valuable as well for the small amount of grocery shopping I do outside of Costco. I do plan on keeping an Amex card, not for the cashback so much as for their CS and benefits. I rent cars a few times a year for long trips, and Amex's optional primary CDW coverage is basically unrivaled, as it applies to SUVs and vehicles even other "primary" coverage cards won't cover.

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I actually agree with some of what yfan is saying here, but there are some points I disagree with. 

While points definitely take time to understand and research, not all points are created equal, in many respects. For instance, with an arrival or venture card you can book any ticket you want. No surcharges or award fees. and a $1,000 ticket to london will be 100k points. That seems like a lot, but if you're not using points for anything else then whatever. With the citi family of products, a $1000 ticket with prestige is only 62,500 points (on AA/US) or 75k points on any other carrier. and with premier it would be 80k on any airlines. 

While the point costs of these flights are all higher, the actual costs can be lower. it saves you time, it means you don't need to learn the ins and outs of EVERY frequent flyer mile in the world to decide where to transfer your points to, and it gives you the freedom to fly on whatever airline you want. Also, you don't NEED To have enough points to do it....you can always say "well I have 10,000 points so lets take a little bit off the cost" 

While BA allows points and cash bookings as well, their currency is useless for anything that crosses an ocean. 

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But what is the point in booking with an arrival or venture? The "miles" are marketing, and are the same thing as double cash or fidelity amex, etc. 

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It's not just about the best value, it's about the timesaving. I would personally never use either of those for travelling, but to some people (mostly people not on this forum) a doublecash card is a cashback card, and venture and arrival earn "miles" and "are totally awesome" 

[Open123]

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@yfan wrote:

This goes to partly what I'm talking about. Point redemption at what can be considered best value takes a lot of research, flexibility and timing. Yet those well-researched and time-adjusted amounts are then compared to straight cash prices, without doing the same amount of detailed research and allowing the comparable (comparable, because the reach of cash is bigger) amount of flexibility in destination and timing to determine the value of those points. To me that strikes as no more accurate than if one were to pick a cash sale and compared that to random point redemption to show "bad" value.

Ultimately it comes down to personal preference, value proposition and what makes you feel rewarded. That's why these are called rewards, after all.

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Sure, I can understand and appreciate that to many, this may seem incredibly time consuming and complex.  

However, I'd imagine there are many, similar to myself, who find this all pretty simple and intuitive.  In my view, it really isn't that complex.  Morever, given our information age, if there is a redemption we're not sure how to redeem, we can ask on a variety of forums and have the answer in 10 minutes.