How do we fight them !!!!????

[Anonymous]

These are all good responses and like i said, I think a lot of it is "generational" as things have changed dramatically over the years.

Like I said, when we bought our first home, the norm was you had AT LEAST 20% CASH down. You always had a down payment on a car. There were not a lot of credit cards, other then "local" cards. Mastercard itself did not begin until 1966-1967, and was done to be competition for Bankamericard. As for Diners Club they started in the late 1950's.

It's funny, but American Express has been in business since around 1850, but got into the travel card business in 1958.

The desire for credit is understandable, but I PERSONALLY (I stress this is only my opinion)  it had reached a point where it was given to freely and has proved disasterous for many people.

As I stated, I am now retired. I worked 25+ years in the gaming industry. In the last 15 years of my work, one of my duties was approving and dealing with people wishing to establish "credit" (Check cashing privleges) at the casino.

People can say what they want about "casinos" but they are light years ahead of credit card issuers in loss prevention. In the casino industry, they use primairly one credit clearing house. They also rely heavily on what is termed "TAC", meaning "Total Available Credit'. Casino's set a "limit' on a person, and as a rule, they will not exceed it. All casinos report to the clearing bureau so that this information is available.

If say a person is "good" for $5000, then thats what they get. Now it may $2500 at 2 casinos, OR maybe $1000 at 5 casinos, but thats it. Casinos work very close with others, to not only prevent losses but also to prevent people from getting in over their heads.

Many times, people became adamant that they could "affford" more, but the casino model that was followed has proven historically proven to correct and effective.

Yes, my work has given me a different look at things. Is my way right? I would certainly not be egotistical to say it is the best way, BUT I CAN SAY, it has been the best way for me and my family.

Certainly I wish everyone accomplishes what they are looking for in regards to credit. I only hope that we all realize that as we strive to reach our personal financial goals, that even if the outcome of good credit and financial stability is the goal we all reach for, there can be different paths to achieve it.

[Anonymous]

CCC operates under the golden rule. He who has the gold makes the rules. It will always be that way. All you can do is adapt and beat them at their own game or not play. However, if you are using plastic to float yourself a loan you are digging yourself into a ditch. Live within your means. You might be a deadbeat by paying off the balance at the end of the month but, you are under no obligation to keep a rotating balance. I spent right at fifty years paying w/cash and was treated like a bum. Because I had no credit. I didn't exist. Nobody cares how much cash you spend. They want to pull up your history so they can do their Cesar impersonation w/thumb up or thumb down. It isn't fair in many aspects but it beats a debit card. I religiously run from .5-6% utilization and they still look me over w/fine tooth comb and I've been denied a couple of times. You can't win every battle so choose them wisely.

[creditchief]

Thank you Martin, You see exactly my point. It is so frustrating to figure this system out anyway beside getting blindsided by some cc tricks. I wish fico could see and make some kind of an adjustment. Some people only have a few cc and when the ccc see you are not using the full limit they take your cl away,they should be happy your not a risk.But this can severely effect your score leading to higher int.,insur.rates higher,and even utilitiy bills. Lord help us there seems to be no escape.

[Anonymous]

Yes, utility bills is another example... You must have a CC to build your credit otherwise they won't even let you pay your electric bill! Isn't that crazy?

[haulingthescoreup]

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Martin wrote:

... So you have to accept a credit card and then CCC can abuse you anytime without you having a chance to fight back. For example if you borrow 2000 dollars on your credit card with interest let's say 9%, pay the debt as agreed and suddeenly you receive a letter that your interest is 24% from now not on any new money you borrow in the future, but on the same debt you borrowed previously! So you will pay higher interest retrospectivelly.

Isn't this Catch 22?

This is what is not fair, you must accept something to even rent a home and then get easily abused...

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(emphasis mine)

This is one of the abuses addressed by the new CC law. USAA has always been one of the good-guy banks, and they recently posted an article about how the new law will affect them. I thought it summarized the effects of the law (on all CCC's) very clearly:

7 Ways the New Credit Card Law Affects You


6. Prohibition on Increasing the Interest Rates on Existing Balances

Today: Even when you've made all monthly payments on the account on time, some credit card issuers may increase interest rates on existing balances due to a change in your credit score, income or other factors.

In the future: Card issuers generally won't be allowed to increase rates on existing balances but will be allowed to increase rates for future purchases after the first year. A penalty rate can't go into effect unless you don't make a required payment within 60 days of its due date. In that case, you'll need to be given a 45-day notice that tells you why your rate was increased. The penalty rate must be decreased to the original rate after six months in a row of timely payments.

[Anonymous]

"May increase...due to... or other factors.

...generally won't be allowed."

You are going to find rough sailing trying to beat them at their game. CCCs are always going to cover their butt.  

CCCs, for the most part, supply continuing unsecured credit. What some of the folks need to experience is a small secured loan. The next time you feel entitled to a loan try taking something of the comparable loan value down to your local pawn shop. There ain't no free lunch. This will give you a whole new perspective and appreciation for the line of credit that you have. It never ceases to amaze me that I can purchase goods and services w/swipe and signature and then wait for weeks to have a billed statement sent to my mailbox that I can scrutinize before payment. The system is far from perfect but, you can improve your lot if you apply yourself. All the while realizing that the lender is in it for a buck...

[haulingthescoreup]

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Nicksterdemus wrote:

"May increase...due to... or other factors.

...generally won't be allowed."

You are going to find rough sailing trying to beat them at their game. CCCs are always going to cover their butt.  

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This is very true, but I do want to point out that the "May increase...due to... or other factors" is referring to current conditions. Yes, the "generally won't be allowed" part, which will be in effect under the new law, obviously has some wiggle room, but many of the existing abuses will be prohibited.

I'm a happy plastic user with no plastic debt, and I genuinely have no clue what the APR is on any of my cards, because they never get to apply it.

[Anonymous]

"they never get to apply it."

Here again is the key that many lose sight of because they are using plastic as a vehicle for a personal loan. I'm a deadbeat and pay in full every month. The only reason the CCCs keep me around is because I might stumble and they pick up a little percentage from the merchant. A little bit of something is worth a whole lot more than a whole lot of nothing. Thanks Dad for those words of wit.

I complained, long and loud, when GE Money Sports refused me a card partially on the grounds of."too few accounts paid as agreed." All of them were paid as agreed. Are they telling me I need just one more card to add to the pile? I think not. Yet, because there's such a value placed on known purchases I refused the original purchase. I'm not going to squander my limited purchasing ability by paying cash. I want to receive credit for my acquired wares. I wanted the two rifles but, not enough to pay cash or pay the 3% extra for using an unaffiliated CC.

Firearms are one of the few products that routinely offer a 3% cash discount and advertise that price. Naturally if you use their card the discount applies. So, when they denied me they were, in essence, telling me I wasn't good enough for their card yet, they would gladly take one of mine, for an extra 3%, or cash in which I wouldn't receive any credit in my history.

If you wish to play you have to pay and sacrifices must be made. All hail the plastic god...

Message Edited by Nicksterdemus on 06-24-2009 07:45 AM

[EmeryLee]

Awesome reply and I totally agree with you. I think you are quite fortunate to have three rental properties for extra income. Paying your bills on-time is very very important because it shows that a person has the integrity and commitment to take care of their obligations. I'm an energy consultant and I offer people a chance to build wealth everyday but just as you pointed out, many people want everything now. We tend to forget the universal law of growth. It takes time to accumulate wealth and it also takes effort and perserverance.

Thanks for your reply and I hope people take it to heed.

[Imhotrodcrazy]

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@Anonymous wrote:
Well, there's a little wisdom in all the responses here.  But "Hotrod" I'm with you.  I grew up in the early 70's Midwest and was taught that if you couldn't buy something with cash you either didn't need it (at least right now otherwise you would have planned for it and saved the $) or it was a true emergency and you needed help - a loan or cash advance.  Yes, the true measure of an individual is how they have kept their obligations and responsibilities.  But in my  50's now and looking for retirement, I find that having no debt has penalized me greatly over the past three years.  My own fault for not keeping an eye on what the CRAs were doing to my once strong 780+ FICO.  I learned my score had dropped down to the low 600's this past winter when I applied for a mortgage. I had closed my credit cards...didn't need them any more.  Use my corporate cc for business.  I have a 1 year old car paid cash, my 4 year old Harley Heritage Classic was bought with cash.  My five mink coats and gold and diamonds -  furniture clothing vacations, all bought with cash.  The people I trade with would give me a stellar recommendation on how I manage my affairs.  So to crawl back up I set out first with a $1K installment, a $2.5K revolving store credit, an Orchard Bk cc with a measly $300 that actually knocked my score down becasue the CL is so low and then they reported a 2 day old card with a $150 charge as 50% utilization causing yet a 54 pt drop in my FICO.   So my friends, yes I'm playing the game.  I'm managing my credit as I do my investment portfolio and when I reach that magic 760 FiCO I'll negotiate a mortgage and plan to pay it off in 10 years.  Then I'll drop all the phoney debt and strive for a 0 FICO and check out of the insanity...I hate this game!   This whole thing is political, rift with special interest groups.  It's socio-economic as well.  I don't care what anyone says, it's still an honorable goal to not have debt.  Just my 2 cents.

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Solorider, 

  I am with you brother.  Sounds like we both went down the same road in life.  I think the same way you do with your quote,  ("I don't care what anyone says, it's still an honorable goal to not have debt"). I will continue on my same "credit" path, be it good, or be it bad.  I said it before and I will say it again, you can't teach an "old" dog new tricks, this late in life.