@Remedios Haha, "rational" may be an unusual sight on this forum 
Citi vs WF SL:
Hmm, that's interesting. At this point approval odds matter a lot, taking an HP and denial makes everything more complicated, so "safe bets" are a priority. I liked the features of the DC, and Citi as a bank more than WF, If you really think WF AC has higher odds of both approval and higher SL than Citi, despite having less perks, that might strongly shift me to try WF instead. OTOH, what about growth? From reading, WF seems very reluctant to grow, while Citi seems to show decent growth?
I'm not super opposed to making multiple payments, I do that with Disco now (and was way worse when it started at $1600 secured....if I get a silly 1k or 500 limit, it would make using a card difficult. I already, currently, don't use the Disco for half my purchase and keep using debit just to avoid weirdly timed reported balances because a lot of things don't post for 4-5 days so charges can linger in pending for most of a week at a time.) I do admit I was looking forward to growing beyond such constraints. If nothing else I could move more to Disco....
FNBO Evergreen: Going back to the thread that started this all, though I definitely want the FNBO cobrand as a pending step due to high rewards, I'm still not sure how I feel about them as a lender. People here seem to think well of them, but there's that gut reaction that makes me think they're kind of temperamantal. Better than Sync, but temperamental. They sound like easier approval and higher SL/growth than many, but also more prone to keep changing it, CLD-ing it, or closing it without apparent reason, very twitchy. That might just be bad perception from limited feedback on a smaller lender though. (Not that WF has a great track record.... 
)
All things being equal, between Citi DC and WF AC for my current position, and with the intent of a "lifer" card, would you be more prone to recommend the WF AC currently? (prequal-pending of course.) And between those and FNBO, do you still lean more toward FNBO?
The others:
I also don't have very positive feelings for Synchrony. No experience with them, just the "feeling" I get when I review their materials seems one step removed from subprime lenders. And I remember hearing nothing but bad things about GE back in the day.
Also good to hear confirmation on Amazon/Chase being a "later" card. I had that same feeling, but it's good to hear such thoughts confirmed. I do buy a lot on Amazon, though I've spread my spend out a lot more than it used to be. I was was almost all Amazon, and now I think I spend kind of at a variety of stores more, so Paypal use edges out Amazon use. Last year I probably only put 7-7.5k through them and almost 20k through Payapl. It surprised me how different my spend pattern is vs, 10 years ago. But it also fluctuates wildly by year and could easily go back to Amazon. It's the first place I check before branching out, much of the time, so that's probably a good card in the lineup eventually.
I'm surprised about USBank being a good contender now. Technically I don't love any of their cards, Cash+ is great as long as they still have utilities, but not the easiest to get the most of. I have them in the same category as Amex. Rewards I won't get a ton of use out of, but good banks to have in your pocket. Card number 5 may well be USB or Amex, but I'm not sure it should be card number 2.
Disco may not be the most rewarding, but they're just a great lender/card processor, and I assume the Disco is definitely a lifer and would be my goto for POS sales due to their speedy and painless card replacement if anything goes wrong.
Card number 2, I'd definitely prefer it to be an all purpose 2% cashback rather than a specific-use card since its utility will never wane unless 3-4% cards become common. So I think the Citi DC, WF AC, Evergreen are my 3 choices there (and your input there is greatly appreciated!!)
Card number 3.....it's either going to be the FNBO cobrand, or....something. Sounds like Amazon Chase isn't the best bet for near-future. I do worry the FNBO cobrand may not be a "lifer", but it does fit the "immediate need" category well. If I do WF (or Evergreen?) for the 2% I suppose Citi CC could be in the running for a future card, too. It's a super utilitarian card until you do the math and realize how little you really save for the work it takes to manage. But it's a good "lifer" since it adjusts with you.
2 Cards/ Gardening:
When you say if approved for whichever I choose, then go for the second on the list, you mean in the immediate near-future, right? And gardening, are you thinking a year after that before moving onto number 4 (might be Amazon Chase, Amex, Citi CC, USB, some other cobrand...)
@uncredited wrote:@RemediosHaha, "rational" may be an unusual sight on this forum
Citi vs WF SL:
Hmm, that's interesting. At this point approval odds matter a lot, taking an HP and denial makes everything more complicated, so "safe bets" are a priority. I liked the features of the DC, and Citi as a bank more than WF, If you really think WF AC has higher odds of both approval and higher SL than Citi, despite having less perks, that might strongly shift me to try WF instead. OTOH, what about growth? From reading, WF seems very reluctant to grow, while Citi seems to show decent growth?
WF cards can grow just fine with moderate use. The only difference is any user initiated request must be done via phone call. You call and ask if SP increase is available on your account. Here is what I am certain of, lets assume both DC and AC will be approved.. I'd say your SL will WF be at least identical if not higher than Citi.
If you are referring to really bad stuff WF did, Chase is the reason behind half the regulations we have in place now and they have done great course correction. BoA, Citi, NFCU, FNBO, Amex... all have some pretty bad stuff albeit less publicized so less people are aware, but simple search will show you the corpses.
If you are bothered by their actions, skip WF, no need for pre-soured "realtionships"
I'm not super opposed to making multiple payments, I do that with Disco now (and was way worse when it started at $1600 secured....if I get a silly 1k or 500 limit, it would make using a card difficult. I already, currently, don't use the Disco for half my purchase and keep using debit just to avoid weirdly timed reported balances because a lot of things don't post for 4-5 days so charges can linger in pending for most of a week at a time.) I do admit I was looking forward to growing beyond such constraints. If nothing else I could move more to Disco....
So, now I am going to contradict myself...decent SL is great but starting on lower end and putting spend on the card can speed up growth (unless Cap One). My personal experience with Citi, $1500 increase like clockwork whether I used cards or not. Then, when I finally used DC for real, $3000 insrease. So, Citi does respond well to use.
FNBO Evergreen: Going back to the thread that started this all, though I definitely want the FNBO cobrand as a pending step due to high rewards, I'm still not sure how I feel about them as a lender. People here seem to think well of them, but there's that gut reaction that makes me think they're kind of temperamantal. Better than Sync, but temperamental. They sound like easier approval and higher SL/growth than many, but also more prone to keep changing it, CLD-ing it, or closing it without apparent reason, very twitchy. That might just be bad perception from limited feedback on a smaller lender though. (Not that WF has a great track record....
They can be sensitive when excessive credit seeking after approval is present, but also to high utilization, Then again, I just described most lenders.
All things being equal, between Citi DC and WF AC for my current position, and with the intent of a "lifer" card, would you be more prone to recommend the WF AC currently? (prequal-pending of course.) And between those and FNBO, do you still lean more toward FNBO?
I am leaning towards FNBO because i think that's where you'll probbaly get usable limit. While some lenders like to stay clear of new(ish) profiles, others do not, Disco being one example (Amext too, as long as file is clean). Less cards means theirs will get used, so some are just kinder than others to those profiles.
The others:
I also don't have very positive feelings for Synchrony. No experience with them, just the "feeling" I get when I review their materials seems one step removed from subprime lenders. And I remember hearing nothing but bad things about GE back in the day.
I think you have slight misunderstanding on what sub-prime lending is. Their cards do not have AFs equal to 1/3 of the limit, there are no monthly fees, no maintenance fees, no CLI fees. APRs tend to be higher but those cards werent meant for balance carrying. They aren't sub-prime or prime lender, their customers are all over the spectrum. I just think they are direction-less (or were in the recent past) and still a bit wobbly. They do have some great cobranded cards, so I would keep them in consideration if its related to where you're certain to spend money in the future.
Also good to hear confirmation on Amazon/Chase being a "later" card. I had that same feeling, but it's good to hear such thoughts confirmed. I do buy a lot on Amazon, though I've spread my spend out a lot more than it used to be. I was was almost all Amazon, and now I think I spend kind of at a variety of stores more, so Paypal use edges out Amazon use. Last year I probably only put 7-7.5k through them and almost 20k through Payapl. It surprised me how different my spend pattern is vs, 10 years ago. But it also fluctuates wildly by year and could easily go back to Amazon. It's the first place I check before branching out, much of the time, so that's probably a good card in the lineup eventually.
It can be later or now card, that's really up to you. I do think you'd benefit from thicker file before visiting Mama Chase. You dont need 50 cards, but more than one would be good.
I'm surprised about USBank being a good contender now. Technically I don't love any of their cards, Cash+ is great as long as they still have utilities, but not the easiest to get the most of. I have them in the same category as Amex. Rewards I won't get a ton of use out of, but good banks to have in your pocket. Card number 5 may well be USB or Amex, but I'm not sure it should be card number 2.
Disco may not be the most rewarding, but they're just a great lender/card processor, and I assume the Disco is definitely a lifer and would be my goto for POS sales due to their speedy and painless card replacement if anything goes wrong.
Card number 2, I'd definitely prefer it to be an all purpose 2% cashback rather than a specific-use card since its utility will never wane unless 3-4% cards become common. So I think the Citi DC, WF AC, Evergreen are my 3 choices there (and your input there is greatly appreciated!!)
Since you are risk averse at the moment, do you have prequals for WF and FNBO? Citi now has a portal, but those are recommendations (not that prequals are guaranteed, but still). Lack of prequal doesnt mean you will get denied, just like prequal doesnt mean you will get approved. Eventually you will have to pull the trigger. FNBO will likely be a single EX pull, WF can be a single or double pull. Citi is same, single for some, double for others. Newer file might put you in two pulls category, they might want to make sure there arent bodies hidden at other CRAs.
Card number 3.....it's either going to be the FNBO cobrand, or....something. Sounds like Amazon Chase isn't the best bet for near-future. I do worry the FNBO cobrand may not be a "lifer", but it does fit the "immediate need" category well. If I do WF (or Evergreen?) for the 2% I suppose Citi CC could be in the running for a future card, too. It's a super utilitarian card until you do the math and realize how little you really save for the work it takes to manage. But it's a good "lifer" since it adjusts with you.
I've touched on Amazon card above, I think you need thicker file, but Chase does what Chase does. Really hard to predict, Chase tends to break crystal balls.
2 Cards/ Gardening:
When you say if approved for whichever I choose, then go for the second on the list, you mean in the immediate near-future, right? And gardening, are you thinking a year after that before moving onto number 4 (might be Amazon Chase, Amex, Citi CC, USB, some other cobrand...)
What I meant is if first card is approved, go for the second one, then garden. How long you garden is up to you, you're basically just building additional history and ensuring that previous applications do not take you out of the running for future ones. I've ended up with some great cards in the past nine months, but I might have slightly overdid it, so now I'm 'gardening" because I am doodoo out of the options given all the new accounts. For you, six months at the minimum, then re-evaluate.
@Remedios wrote:Why do you expect cards to be "lifers"
Even the ones you're contemplating underwent many changes, mostly nerfing.
Also, even if a lender keeps card intact, your needs will change, so what's great today might be sock drawer in six months
Given the length of this thread, I'm starting to think you're experiencing analysis paralysis (though, I could be wrong, there is a first for everything).
My advice for someone with a young file like yours would be to pick what would be the most beneficial to you right now, and that's probably a flat rate cash back card. If you go with quarterly categories card, you'll run into "and super awesome wonderful 1% on everything else". FNBO is probably your best bet, Citi might approve, but they aren't exactly throwing themselves on young profiles, so I'd wait with Citi.
^^^ This
@Remedios "experiencing analysis paralysis", I like it --
I believe I had it, but have lost it over the last seven years.
Analysed things to death, got the best cards and they all died.
Have "None" of my original cards.
Joined this forum 7 years ago, and during that time period, got 10 new cards.
Three of the 10 went away, no longer around, closed by issuer.
Three others were nerfed where rewards were reduced.
Two more became worthless because newer cards popped up that have better rewards/benefits.
Over a 7 year window, not a single card from the first few years.
All my spend in on my last 3 cards received over the last 2 years
Picking that "lifer" is not something I would be pondering.
@KforceThe whole idea of "no lifers" pretty much torpedoes any concept of a plan or strategy I had. Though do banks close core cards? I'd think the takeaway there would be to avoid store/cobrand cards for the first 3 and stick to core cards, even if the rewards become junk, just keep them going forever. It almost makes me think Amex should go on the short-list just to build a lifer. Thing is with a young file making up missing decades, I'm not sure I can afford to have early cards that close, really, ever. If that happens and AAoA takes that hit, it rolls me back much more than someone that started much earlier. I think the 2% still really is a lock on a long-term card though. I don't foresee cards averaging much more than that, ever, really. Not unless swpie fees grow exponentially, but by then merchants would revolt. I could see a 3% becoming a norm at some point, but that 1% isn't that much cause to close accounts.
At least Disco is the least likely of all cards to ever close since they basically have only one card and their card is most of their business, so AoOA is pretty solid for me.
@AnonymalousThe puzzle to get exactly right! Yeah that's the heart of confusing matters to me, for sure. It's a bleak assessment of how the industry really works, and I'll never be quite comfortable with how it works. TBH I think there should be hard and firm requirements that are stated for this stuff. Even if it's constantly changing, it's bizzarre that basics (like Chase's 5/24, etc) aren't clearly in print. The whole industry operates like a criminal underground laundering money...probably because it mostly is...
I do also tend to think of a decline as a disaster that pushes things back for 6-12 months again. IDK how true or untrue that is, but with a file of that age, I just tend to see every inq MUST be accompanied by an account. I'm still not totally against the small "spree" - I'm not sure which way is better or worse in the long-run, really. Kind of depends how the mood goes after the first one. I came into this thinking 1 every 6 mo was the only way to do it, so the idea of the 2-card "spree" is a newer idea to me. I'm somewhat on board with it, though, depending. It's less that I'm uncomfortable with it as much as the concept is new to me since the conventional wisdom I'd heard until this thread was that that basically isn't how it works, so there's some adjustment of thought involved to figure out what the real timeline ought to look like for each card, based on each of their own known biases, etc.
RE the FNBO cobrand: It's defintely a lock of a card "at some pont" - though it does not have to be a "now" card. The fact that it's a lock "at some point" is part of what pushes me away from Evergreen, though. TBH that card I think of less of a "credit card" and more of a "membershp club for savings that requires a hard pull and a new account that might bump my CL up." 
It would definitely save me money today. But (in line with the lifer concept) that could readily change, or the cobrand could end and close, and the I'm back to missing the slot, etc. It's definitely not card number 2. What I'm unsure about is if it should be card number 3 or not (and if not, what SHOULD be card number 3, because then it starts edging toward Chase in the running which we can all agree isn't card number 3. )
@Remedios Thanks for the breakdown! I'll try (try!) to be concise! :
WF:
Actually not so much about the *really* bad stuff they did years back, but more recently their sudden and random closure of personal loans that pretty much killed people's CL/util randomly. I don't think it's so much a negative relationship like you suggest, so much as a bit of caution about how stable they are at lending. But I have similar concerns with FNBO TBH. OTOH I have several branches around me, not that a CC has much to do with branches. I don't have a deposit relationship with them per-se but did have a pleasant (if time consuming) experience with closing out a tiny trust fund in my name years ago, so I do actually have a better opinion of them than I probably should.
AC / DC (pun intended ):
That's a very good point about Auto CLI. I know most banks aren't super prone to auto CLI, but your story about Citi CLI is definitely in line with what I'd like to see, which does make me feel good about Citi again, as well. If we forget FNBO at the moment, between Citi and WF.
Approval odds between the two.... SL aside, would you say they're both similar odds, or definitely favoring WF there?
Both have a "pre-select" page, but only a "pre-select", not prequal page, so IDK if that means much for either. Citi does keep sending me mailer after mailer for AA and CC (not DC), that CLAIM to be prescreened, but I put very little stock into that, and assume it's from the junk pile.
Again SL aside, in terms of growth and *especially* auto-CLIgrowth do you think they both have similar speed and potential, or one tends to show better results than the other? Your experience with Citi sounds basically like my ideal, though IDK how common that experience is.
All things being equal, do you have a strong leaning (for my profile) toward one or the other?
Evergreen:
I'm not ignoring your advice on Evergreen, either, it's still one I'll consider here, but I'm still not super-keen on going FNBO for two cards, and I know the cobrand one will happen whether it's number 3 or number 5. When you say "usable limit" vs the others, do you have an threshold in mind of what you consider usable vs not (Just asking because you may have a loftier idea than myself, or I might be overestimating Citi and WF.)
Synch:
Good info. I don't have any cards from them in mind right now that would match with where I spend in particular, but that's good to know in future for that unknown future number 5.
Chase Amz:
Yeah, definitely going to wait with them. Maybe that means 6 months, maybe it means a year, but concensus seems almost universal it's best to wait with them and have that thicker file.
Prequals/Risk aversion:
I don't have any hard mailer prequals for anyone. I haven't submitted online prequals, yet, I'll do them starting when I go to app in 2 weeks. WF was soliciting for banking/checking accounts with invitational bonsues, but not credit. I had a hard prequal mailer for Cap1 QS that expired in December (not interested.) I have a mountain of "pre-selected" mailers for Amex. A mountain of "pre-selected" mailers for Citi AAA, R+, and CC (but not DC.) However I take those with a grain of salt, despite the mandatory "prescreen opt-out" message, because the Cap1 prequal used my name as foramtted on Disco, so a real SP connection there. The Amex and Citi mailers list my name as it appears on debit, not the Disco, which also accompanies "pre-selected" mailers from....Disco... which are using my name as it appears on Debit and not as it appears on their own card, so they don't seem to know it's "me" they're mailing to, implying no real SP involved.
I assume Citi is in that same bin, using that same format of my name, however Citi's mailers are interesting because they include a hard number rather than range for APR. Two for CC were >20%. One was 15.99% (lowest on CC is 13.99%.) SOUNDS too good to be true for a thin file random mailer from Citi, and isn't the card I wanted (at least right now, wouldn't mind CC someday.) But the hard number offered at least made me curious. Something in the database made them like me, though IDK what database that is and if it really connects realistically to my actual file. Amex once solicited me when I had NO file, so "pre-select" means less than nothing, probably.
Gardening:
Thanks. I assumed 1 year minimum after 2 more cards, and maybe it still will be, but it's interesting to know number 4 could be possible before then. I assume when talking Chase Amz we want 2 years, 3 cards minimum, realistically?
(Also, thanks again SO much for all the helpful advice here, this is super!)
@uncredited wrote:Btw, with azeo, how do you work along the delays in posting charges for the zeros? I end up not using my card 1-2 weeks around closing and just using debit for half my charges. Makes clis less likely.... But keeps the score up.
Until you do get at least 2 more revolving card accounts, according to the experts here 😉 AZEO doesn't actually produce the intended scoring benefit. If you are seeing a score difference from month to month, with one new account reporting, increases may be seen for lower utilization, as well as aging (@ 4 months, 7 months, etc).
