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What updates do you hope to see with CSP/CSR revamp?

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Mega Contributor

Re: What updates do you hope to see with CSP/CSR revamp?


@Citylights18 wrote:


The CSR earns 3 cents per dollar spent on travel. One cent is worth one point.

 

It takes 33% less points to buy travel on the Chase portal with a CSR x1.5. That is 33% off or 33% back that you don't have to spend.

 

Thus the 3 cents per dollar has 33% more value (4 cents per dollar)

 

If the CSR divisor was x2.0 travel would be 50% off and the 3 cents per dollar now worth 4.5.


In percentages there are always two approaches, basically (New-Old)/Old   and (New-Old)/New

 

These lead to the 50% vs 33% confusion, a 50% increase in the value of the unit leads to a 33% reduction in cost when paying with the inflated unit.   But your way is just not a meaningful way to do the calculation.   Consider this approach.

 

Instead of having a destination in mind, I am looking to see how I can spend my 100,000 UR.   Looking it up using my CFU, I have choices of flights that cost up to $1000.   If I transfer those points to the CSR, and look again, I find I have choices up to $1,500.   Which implies that th value has gone up 50%!

 

And now suppose that Chase finally expands Pay Yourself Back to allow you redeem the URs for cash at the enhanced rate.    Doing it with the CFU, I can cash out 100K UR for $1000.   Doing it on CSR would return $1,500      Would you still maintain that was a 33% improvement?

Message 51 of 81
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Moderator

Re: What updates do you hope to see with CSP/CSR revamp?

+1 to the above scenarios.  Again, it comes down to properly setting up the math equations.  A discount percentage is irrelevant unless the value is known (i.e. a dollar is worth $1.00), and as I stated earlier a 33% discount on CSR assumes that the value is known and the value is 1 cent.

 

A similar math error is often made with Membership Rewards used through Amex Travel when a person has Business Platinum.  The 35% rebate does not mean points are worth 1.35 cents because it is not a 1.35x multiplier, but rather a rebate where fewer net points end up being used and the redemption itself is still 1 cent per point (the value does not change, disregarding Insider Fares where they are worth more than 1 cent and we would then use the same equation as on CSP/CSR to determine value), and the actual value is 1.54 cents per MR when used in that fashion.

Message 52 of 81
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Valued Contributor

Re: What updates do you hope to see with CSP/CSR revamp?

Here's what I have taken away from the last 2 posts. Smiley Indifferent

 

Here's the unexpected origin of the "confused math lady" meme / Boing Boing

 

What if they just take away redemption bonuses and just say the points are exactly proportionate to the CCP amount? Not because anyone needs this but just so I can make more sense of this. I have both Freedoms and no Sapphire cards but I'd always planned to when it fit my lifestyle and move my points over for maximum profit.

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Active Cards: Chevron Texaco, Amex BCE, Barclays Ring, Chase Freedom, Chase Freedom Unlimited, Best Buy Visa, Marvel MC

Message 53 of 81
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Valued Contributor

Re: What updates do you hope to see with CSP/CSR revamp?


@longtimelurker wrote:

@Citylights18 wrote:


The CSR earns 3 cents per dollar spent on travel. One cent is worth one point.

 

It takes 33% less points to buy travel on the Chase portal with a CSR x1.5. That is 33% off or 33% back that you don't have to spend.

 

Thus the 3 cents per dollar has 33% more value (4 cents per dollar)

 

If the CSR divisor was x2.0 travel would be 50% off and the 3 cents per dollar now worth 4.5.


In percentages there are always two approaches, basically (New-Old)/Old   and (New-Old)/New

 

These lead to the 50% vs 33% confusion, a 50% increase in the value of the unit leads to a 33% reduction in cost when paying with the inflated unit.   But your way is just not a meaningful way to do the calculation.   Consider this approach.

 

Instead of having a destination in mind, I am looking to see how I can spend my 100,000 UR.   Looking it up using my CFU, I have choices of flights that cost up to $1000.   If I transfer those points to the CSR, and look again, I find I have choices up to $1,500.   Which implies that th value has gone up 50%!

 

And now suppose that Chase finally expands Pay Yourself Back to allow you redeem the URs for cash at the enhanced rate.    Doing it with the CFU, I can cash out 100K UR for $1000.   Doing it on CSR would return $1,500      Would you still maintain that was a 33% improvement?


The widely-read points and miles blogs, The Points Guy, One Mile at a Time, and The View from the Wing, all use @longtimelurker 's methodology, so it's the standard way points and miles hobbyists compute the value of points.

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Message 54 of 81
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Moderator

Re: What updates do you hope to see with CSP/CSR revamp?

It's the standard way points and miles hobbyists compute the value of points because it is math.  Math has rules and the final outcome is not subjective.  Unless an error has been made in an equation, it is not possible to get any other result.

Message 55 of 81
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Mega Contributor

Re: What updates do you hope to see with CSP/CSR revamp?


@K-in-Boston wrote:

It's the standard way points and miles hobbyists compute the value of points because it is math.  Math has rules and the final outcome is not subjective.  Unless an error has been made in an equation, it is not possible to get any other result.


While I try not to disagree with someone agreeing with me.....

 

The equations are defined, but the methodology can vary!   As I alluded to earlier, I could make a case for a slightly different valuation, now that CFU/CFF allow a more apples to apples calculation:

 

I want to buy a $1500 airfare through the Chase Portal.   Using CSR, I can use 100K UR, so the value appears to be 1.5cpp.

But I could buy the exact same fare through the portal using CFU say, and taking the 5% as cash back, I would net pay $1425.    So now my 100K UR maybe should be valued at 1.425cpp.

 

Now one case is using cash (which now I have an opportunity cost loss on) the other using earned rewards, but with a lot of handwaving, it's not a TOTALLY wrong view!

Message 56 of 81
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Valued Contributor

Re: What updates do you hope to see with CSP/CSR revamp?

Very classy @longtimelurker ! YMMV does seem to apply here. Depending on use and value at the time of utilization and how points are acquired, the results could vary widely. 

 

The new Freedom updates seem to give a little more benefit to CSP. For example, CFU+CSP now effectively makes dining purchases worth 3.75 UR instead of 2.5 UR that it would've gotten before. Their goal with any updates they make could simply be to make CSP the "budget" travel card for those with a limited budget for travel per year. I (my S.O. lol) mathed out my spend to choose the right travel/dining card last year. Using spend from 2018 and projected spend for 2019, the CSP was behind in all cases with my spending setup. Now I don't have my spreadsheet here with me now but this would be a slight bump to the value of CSP on the grids below while not impacting the value of CSR. So although, at the time, I was making $50K+ a year, with my light travel and much of my spend on dining, adding CSP would actually have been a net loss for me over just using CF/CFU for spend.

 

Sample Data that is from my personal profile 1.5 years ago:

 

Based on 2018's Spend

Chase Freedom/Freedom Unlimited (Current)142.5 
Chase Sapphire Reserve 140.25
Chase Sapphire Preferred 106.25
Uber Credit Card 208.5
Marvel Mastercard 189
WF Propel 198

 

Projected Spend 2019:

Chase Freedom/Freedom Unlimited (Current)178.5 
Chase Sapphire Reserve 198.75
Chase Sapphire Preferred 152.5
Uber Credit Card 256.4
Marvel Mastercard 235.5
WF Propel 237

 

So to tie all back to this current thread, one big change they could make to CSP would be to leave it as is and drop the AF to $50.00. With that, and the added benefits of transferring UR's from CFF/CFU, you now have a little powerhouse travel rewards card that actually works with the average American's spending thresholds. These two changes, AF drop, and the already active CFU change would make this card the no-brainer travel card for someone like me who travels 1.5 times a year.

 

And while we're at it, revert the sub from $4K spend in 3 months (which isn't feasible for many) to perhaps $1K spend like most other cards in this category of cards. 

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Active Cards: Chevron Texaco, Amex BCE, Barclays Ring, Chase Freedom, Chase Freedom Unlimited, Best Buy Visa, Marvel MC

Message 57 of 81
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Moderator

Re: What updates do you hope to see with CSP/CSR revamp?


@longtimelurker wrote:

@K-in-Boston wrote:

It's the standard way points and miles hobbyists compute the value of points because it is math.  Math has rules and the final outcome is not subjective.  Unless an error has been made in an equation, it is not possible to get any other result.


While I try not to disagree with someone agreeing with me.....

 

The equations are defined, but the methodology can vary!   As I alluded to earlier, I could make a case for a slightly different valuation, now that CFU/CFF allow a more apples to apples calculation:

 

I want to buy a $1500 airfare through the Chase Portal.   Using CSR, I can use 100K UR, so the value appears to be 1.5cpp.

But I could buy the exact same fare through the portal using CFU say, and taking the 5% as cash back, I would net pay $1425.    So now my 100K UR maybe should be valued at 1.425cpp.

 

Now one case is using cash (which now I have an opportunity cost loss on) the other using earned rewards, but with a lot of handwaving, it's not a TOTALLY wrong view!


There are many ways of determining the value of URs, but since the question posed is "what is the value of a UR when used toward payment for travel in the Chase travel portal," no matter how the equation is set up (as long as it is set up correctly and not trying to answer a question not posed, such as discount amount or opportunity cost vs using other payment methods or purchasing from other avenues) we will always arrive at the same values of 1.00 cpp, 1.25 cpp, and 1.50 cpp.


But at no time should discount amount be applied to value, as wasCB14 made clear with his example of valuing URs at 2 cpp if you were able to buy a million dollar house with 1 UR due to the 99.999999999% discount.

 

But I do get what you are saying.  Now I gotta get back to work, where they actually pay me to do math. 😂 

Message 58 of 81
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Established Contributor

Re: What updates do you hope to see with CSP/CSR revamp?


@longtimelurker wrote:

@Citylights18 wrote:


The CSR earns 3 cents per dollar spent on travel. One cent is worth one point.

 

It takes 33% less points to buy travel on the Chase portal with a CSR x1.5. That is 33% off or 33% back that you don't have to spend.

 

Thus the 3 cents per dollar has 33% more value (4 cents per dollar)

 

If the CSR divisor was x2.0 travel would be 50% off and the 3 cents per dollar now worth 4.5.


In percentages there are always two approaches, basically (New-Old)/Old   and (New-Old)/New

 

These lead to the 50% vs 33% confusion, a 50% increase in the value of the unit leads to a 33% reduction in cost when paying with the inflated unit.   But your way is just not a meaningful way to do the calculation.   Consider this approach.

 

Instead of having a destination in mind, I am looking to see how I can spend my 100,000 UR.   Looking it up using my CFU, I have choices of flights that cost up to $1000.   If I transfer those points to the CSR, and look again, I find I have choices up to $1,500.   Which implies that th value has gone up 50%!

 

And now suppose that Chase finally expands Pay Yourself Back to allow you redeem the URs for cash at the enhanced rate.    Doing it with the CFU, I can cash out 100K UR for $1000.   Doing it on CSR would return $1,500      Would you still maintain that was a 33% improvement?


That is different and actually a 50% increase.

Official travel point totals as of 6/20/20 (Goal Free Travel)
Chase Ultimate Rewards 174,345
AA Advantage 15,331
United MileagePlus 13,256
British Airways Avios 11,332
Expedia Points 2,763
NASA Platinum Rewards 1883
Southwest Rapid Rewards 1,000
Hilton Honors 481
AMEX Membership Rewards 310
Delta Sky Miles 123
World of Hyatt 4
Marriot Bonvoy 0
Hotels.com Rewards 6/10 ($135.99)

Official cashback as of 6/20/20 (Goal Fund Roth IRA)
Acorns 584.73
Retail Me Not 85.12
Top Cashback 39.08
DOSH App 35.72
PEI App 27.69
Raise Cash 27.49
Club Overstock 23.87
Mr. Rebates 14.65
NFCU Rewards 2.96
Discover 2.67

Other Point Category
Freebird 3,500
Samsung Rewards 2,796
Open Table 1,500
Message 59 of 81
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Established Contributor

Re: What updates do you hope to see with CSP/CSR revamp?


@ChargedUp wrote:

I do think it'd be worthwhile to bring Disney back to the travel portal, as well as nix the Disney credit card (which is really a ho-hum value to begin with).


And I'm sure the Disney card is the driving factor behind their decision to kill Disney from the travel portal. Unfortunately I have a feeling that Chase values the co-branding with Disney more than they value the income that the Disney card itself directly generates for them. It's a very popular card for some reason (probably mostly the Disney graphics printed on the cards), even if it isn't popular here. So I don't see that card going anywhere anytime soon. And unfortunately, as long as that relationship exists, Disney is probably never going to let Chase sell Disney tickets through a 3rd-party OTA (Expedia).

 

Maybe as a compromise, they could introduce a 25/50% transfer bonus from CSP/CSR Ultimate Rewards to Disney Rewards Dollars (or an equivalent discount on Disney gift cards). I'd be ok with that option.

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