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What updates do you hope to see with CSP/CSR revamp?

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Established Contributor

Re: What updates do you hope to see with CSP/CSR revamp?


@K-in-Boston wrote:

@Citylights18 wrote:

@coreysw12 wrote:

@K-in-Boston wrote:

Many of the comparisons on dining for example fail to take into account that there are no foreign transaction fees to completely negate any dining earnings as is the case on the lower tier cards.  They are after all travel cards.


Excellent point. My CSR actually gets all of my foreign spend (both for bonus categories and otherwise) simply due to no FTF, but it only barely beats my lowly Cap1 Quicksilver that also has no FTF and offers 1.5% back on everything. Which gives me another idea: 1.5x on all foreign spend would be a great CSP/CSR feature, even if domestic spend stays at 1x.


You can get 1% everything foreign travel on the CSR but you can do the same with the CSP.

 

CSP trifecta I've always said is the way to go over trying to eat the large CSR annual fee. I said it even before the CSR moved its AF to $550. The 1.5 redemption on travel portal purchases is overrated.  A point is worth 1.33 cpp when redeeming that way. A CSP point is worth 1.20 ccp with the 1.25 redemption.

 

I opted to carry a CSP and an AMEX Green instead. Green has the 3x categories but one difference is it also generates a lot of cash back offers, not just at Starbucks or Krispy Kreme for 5% but solid $5 to $10 dollars off on local vendors and transit. Then there is no individual card utilization. A normal card you stick 10,000 on it and your score drops by 50 points.


Huh?!?  Not sure how you came up with those numbers.  With the 50% bonus, URs are worth 1.50 cpp with CSR.  With the 25% bonus, URs are worth 1.25 cpp with CSP.  A $750 plane ticket is 50k with CSR and 60k with CSP; that's 1.5 and 1.25.  While I've done Marriott and Virgin Atlantic transfers, I primarily use URs for travel portal airfare purchases.  With the 50% multiplier and SkyMiles earned I'm at around 2 cpp net.

 

CSR makes much more sense if you're spending in the 3x categories.  Since I do the travel portal most of the time, it's comparing 2.5% back to 4.5% back and that can easily overcome the difference in AFs after the travel credit is taken out.

 

As for score points, that's entirely dependent on profile.  I can lose zero points or almost nothing by adding a $10k balance on most cards.


Take something that is $100 dollars on the UR travel portal. Then you divide it by 1.5

 

$100/1.5 = $66.66

 

That is 33% off the original price of $100. A 33% discount.

 

Two $150 travel purchases ($300 total) can be redeemed for 10,000 points each. You save 5,000 points each time. If you say you had those points back against what would initially be a 30,000 total point purchase that means 30,000 is like 40,000 and that 3x earning then is like 4x earning, not the 4.5% commonly touted.

 

It's not 3 x 1.5 and $100 x 0.5.

Official travel point totals as of 6/20/20 (Goal Free Travel)
Chase Ultimate Rewards 174,345
AA Advantage 15,331
United MileagePlus 13,256
British Airways Avios 11,332
Expedia Points 2,763
NASA Platinum Rewards 1883
Southwest Rapid Rewards 1,000
Hilton Honors 481
AMEX Membership Rewards 310
Delta Sky Miles 123
World of Hyatt 4
Marriot Bonvoy 0
Hotels.com Rewards 6/10 ($135.99)

Official cashback as of 6/20/20 (Goal Fund Roth IRA)
Acorns 584.73
Retail Me Not 85.12
Top Cashback 39.08
DOSH App 35.72
PEI App 27.69
Raise Cash 27.49
Club Overstock 23.87
Mr. Rebates 14.65
NFCU Rewards 2.96
Discover 2.67

Other Point Category
Freebird 3,500
Samsung Rewards 2,796
Open Table 1,500
Message 41 of 81
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Moderator

Re: What updates do you hope to see with CSP/CSR revamp?


@Citylights18 wrote:

@K-in-Boston wrote:

@Citylights18 wrote:

@coreysw12 wrote:

@K-in-Boston wrote:

Many of the comparisons on dining for example fail to take into account that there are no foreign transaction fees to completely negate any dining earnings as is the case on the lower tier cards.  They are after all travel cards.


Excellent point. My CSR actually gets all of my foreign spend (both for bonus categories and otherwise) simply due to no FTF, but it only barely beats my lowly Cap1 Quicksilver that also has no FTF and offers 1.5% back on everything. Which gives me another idea: 1.5x on all foreign spend would be a great CSP/CSR feature, even if domestic spend stays at 1x.


You can get 1% everything foreign travel on the CSR but you can do the same with the CSP.

 

CSP trifecta I've always said is the way to go over trying to eat the large CSR annual fee. I said it even before the CSR moved its AF to $550. The 1.5 redemption on travel portal purchases is overrated.  A point is worth 1.33 cpp when redeeming that way. A CSP point is worth 1.20 ccp with the 1.25 redemption.

 

I opted to carry a CSP and an AMEX Green instead. Green has the 3x categories but one difference is it also generates a lot of cash back offers, not just at Starbucks or Krispy Kreme for 5% but solid $5 to $10 dollars off on local vendors and transit. Then there is no individual card utilization. A normal card you stick 10,000 on it and your score drops by 50 points.


Huh?!?  Not sure how you came up with those numbers.  With the 50% bonus, URs are worth 1.50 cpp with CSR.  With the 25% bonus, URs are worth 1.25 cpp with CSP.  A $750 plane ticket is 50k with CSR and 60k with CSP; that's 1.5 and 1.25.  While I've done Marriott and Virgin Atlantic transfers, I primarily use URs for travel portal airfare purchases.  With the 50% multiplier and SkyMiles earned I'm at around 2 cpp net.

 

CSR makes much more sense if you're spending in the 3x categories.  Since I do the travel portal most of the time, it's comparing 2.5% back to 4.5% back and that can easily overcome the difference in AFs after the travel credit is taken out.

 

As for score points, that's entirely dependent on profile.  I can lose zero points or almost nothing by adding a $10k balance on most cards.


Take something that is $100 dollars on the UR travel portal. Then you divide it by 1.5

 

$100/1.5 = $66.66

 

That is 33% off the original price of $100. A 33% discount.

 

Two $150 travel purchases ($300 total) can be redeemed for 10,000 points each. You save 5,000 points each time. If you say you had those points back against what would initially be a 30,000 total point purchase that means 30,000 is like 40,000 and that 3x earning then is like 4x earning, not the 4.5% commonly touted.

 

It's not 3 x 1.5 and $100 x 0.5.


 

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Message 42 of 81
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Moderator

Re: What updates do you hope to see with CSP/CSR revamp?

@Citylights18 I mean this in the most FSR way possible, but your order of operations is incorrect. 10,000 points are worth $150.00 in the Chase portal with a CSR.

 

$150.00/10,000=$0.015 or 1.5 cents per point.

 

Your equation assumes the value is 1 cpp and works backward to a discount amount.

Message 43 of 81
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Established Contributor

Re: What updates do you hope to see with CSP/CSR revamp?

This how I'm planning to use my points with the new rules to maximize the ROI

 

UR to Hyatt (redeem for vacations at high category hotels)

MR to Airlines (if I have enough for the flights)

CFU to buy airfare (points then go to CSP->WoH)

WoH to buy Hyatt (for shorter stays)

AMEX Green to buy OTA (for non-Hyatt travel)

 

This way I'm concentrating my Chase points where I can get 3 or 4 ccp. I might be able to score 2.0 ccp with AMEX on flights. For buying non Hyatt hotels I can triple dip though an OTA (MR, Shopping Portal, OTA rewards).

 

That is why I don't see the point in using the 1.5 of the CSR to scalp for a measly 33% discount when I can get a 66% (3 ccp) or 75% (4 ccp) discount over at Hyatt. The CSP 1.25 scalp is 20% so the CSR is not that much better. The new 5x travel earn on the CFU is better than the 1.5 redeem.

Official travel point totals as of 6/20/20 (Goal Free Travel)
Chase Ultimate Rewards 174,345
AA Advantage 15,331
United MileagePlus 13,256
British Airways Avios 11,332
Expedia Points 2,763
NASA Platinum Rewards 1883
Southwest Rapid Rewards 1,000
Hilton Honors 481
AMEX Membership Rewards 310
Delta Sky Miles 123
World of Hyatt 4
Marriot Bonvoy 0
Hotels.com Rewards 6/10 ($135.99)

Official cashback as of 6/20/20 (Goal Fund Roth IRA)
Acorns 584.73
Retail Me Not 85.12
Top Cashback 39.08
DOSH App 35.72
PEI App 27.69
Raise Cash 27.49
Club Overstock 23.87
Mr. Rebates 14.65
NFCU Rewards 2.96
Discover 2.67

Other Point Category
Freebird 3,500
Samsung Rewards 2,796
Open Table 1,500
Message 44 of 81
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Established Contributor

Re: What updates do you hope to see with CSP/CSR revamp?


@K-in-Boston wrote:

@Citylights18 I mean this in the most FSR way possible, but your order of operations is incorrect. 10,000 points are worth $150.00 in the Chase portal with a CSR.

 

$150.00/10,000=$0.015 or 1.5 cents per point.

 

Your equation assumes the value is 1 cpp and works backward to a discount amount.


A 100% return would be $150/15,000 points. I think we agree on that.

 

The discount of the price from $150 to $100 dollars is $50 dollars, a 33% discount. Its like getting an extra 33% back on a 1x purchase.

 

And 33% of 3x equals 1x. That means 3x points are essentially worth 4x in the portal.

 

1.5 of the CSR and the 1.25 of the CSP are not ccp valuatons. They are divisors for redeeming UR points through the portal.

Official travel point totals as of 6/20/20 (Goal Free Travel)
Chase Ultimate Rewards 174,345
AA Advantage 15,331
United MileagePlus 13,256
British Airways Avios 11,332
Expedia Points 2,763
NASA Platinum Rewards 1883
Southwest Rapid Rewards 1,000
Hilton Honors 481
AMEX Membership Rewards 310
Delta Sky Miles 123
World of Hyatt 4
Marriot Bonvoy 0
Hotels.com Rewards 6/10 ($135.99)

Official cashback as of 6/20/20 (Goal Fund Roth IRA)
Acorns 584.73
Retail Me Not 85.12
Top Cashback 39.08
DOSH App 35.72
PEI App 27.69
Raise Cash 27.49
Club Overstock 23.87
Mr. Rebates 14.65
NFCU Rewards 2.96
Discover 2.67

Other Point Category
Freebird 3,500
Samsung Rewards 2,796
Open Table 1,500
Message 45 of 81
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Valued Contributor

Re: What updates do you hope to see with CSP/CSR revamp?


@Citylights18 wrote:

This how I'm planning to use my points with the new rules to maximize the ROI

 

UR to Hyatt (redeem for vacations at high category hotels)

MR to Airlines (if I have enough for the flights)

CFU to buy airfare (points then go to CSP->WoH)

WoH to buy Hyatt (for shorter stays)

AMEX Green to buy OTA (for non-Hyatt travel)

 

This way I'm concentrating my Chase points where I can get 3 or 4 ccp. I might be able to score 2.0 ccp with AMEX on flights. For buying non Hyatt hotels I can triple dip though an OTA (MR, Shopping Portal, OTA rewards).

 

That is why I don't see the point in using the 1.5 of the CSR to scalp for a measly 33% discount when I can get a 66% (3 ccp) or 75% (4 ccp) discount over at Hyatt. The CSP 1.25 scalp is 20% so the CSR is not that much better. The new 5x travel earn on the CFU is better than the 1.5 redeem.


 

 

 

 

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Message 46 of 81
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Mega Contributor

Re: What updates do you hope to see with CSP/CSR revamp?


@Citylights18 wrote:

 

1.5 of the CSR and the 1.25 of the CSP are not ccp valuatons. They are divisors for redeeming UR points through the portal.


Since I'm not so FSR as @K-in-Boston  (but perhaps more so than @Remedios ) No!!!!!

 

Those two concepts are the same.

 

Suppose you want to buy something for $150.      I give some LTL special glittery stones and say you need 10,000 of them to make the purchase.    Mmmm, wonder how much each stone is worth.

 

Well, using the trusty formula:  Value = TotalPrice/NumberUsed we find that each stone is worth, in cents 15,000/10,000 = 1.5c per glittery stone (cpgs).    And how many stones do we need to buy say $1.50.   Well, NumberNeeded=Price/Value = 1500/1.5 = 100.

 

When I saw your numbers I thought maybe you were doing a different meaningful calculation, taking into account, for example, that you could have paid with a 2% card so the points really aren't quite 1.5 and 1.25 in that view.

Message 47 of 81
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Established Contributor

Re: What updates do you hope to see with CSP/CSR revamp?


@longtimelurker wrote:

@Citylights18 wrote:

 

1.5 of the CSR and the 1.25 of the CSP are not ccp valuatons. They are divisors for redeeming UR points through the portal.


Since I'm not so FSR as @K-in-Boston  (but perhaps more so than @Remedios ) No!!!!!

 

Those two concepts are the same.

 

Suppose you want to buy something for $150.      I give some LTL special glittery stones and say you need 10,000 of them to make the purchase.    Mmmm, wonder how much each stone is worth.

 

Well, using the trusty formula:  Value = TotalPrice/NumberUsed we find that each stone is worth, in cents 15,000/10,000 = 1.5c per glittery stone (cpgs).    And how many stones do we need to buy say $1.50.   Well, NumberNeeded=Price/Value = 1500/1.5 = 100.

 

When I saw your numbers I thought maybe you were doing a different meaningful calculation, taking into account, for example, that you could have paid with a 2% card so the points really aren't quite 1.5 and 1.25 in that view.


The CSR earns 3 cents per dollar spent on travel. One cent is worth one point.

 

It takes 33% less points to buy travel on the Chase portal with a CSR x1.5. That is 33% off or 33% back that you don't have to spend.

 

Thus the 3 cents per dollar has 33% more value (4 cents per dollar)

 

If the CSR divisor was x2.0 travel would be 50% off and the 3 cents per dollar now worth 4.5.

Official travel point totals as of 6/20/20 (Goal Free Travel)
Chase Ultimate Rewards 174,345
AA Advantage 15,331
United MileagePlus 13,256
British Airways Avios 11,332
Expedia Points 2,763
NASA Platinum Rewards 1883
Southwest Rapid Rewards 1,000
Hilton Honors 481
AMEX Membership Rewards 310
Delta Sky Miles 123
World of Hyatt 4
Marriot Bonvoy 0
Hotels.com Rewards 6/10 ($135.99)

Official cashback as of 6/20/20 (Goal Fund Roth IRA)
Acorns 584.73
Retail Me Not 85.12
Top Cashback 39.08
DOSH App 35.72
PEI App 27.69
Raise Cash 27.49
Club Overstock 23.87
Mr. Rebates 14.65
NFCU Rewards 2.96
Discover 2.67

Other Point Category
Freebird 3,500
Samsung Rewards 2,796
Open Table 1,500
Message 48 of 81
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Super Contributor

Re: What updates do you hope to see with CSP/CSR revamp?


@Citylights18 wrote:

@longtimelurker wrote:

@Citylights18 wrote:

 

1.5 of the CSR and the 1.25 of the CSP are not ccp valuatons. They are divisors for redeeming UR points through the portal.


Since I'm not so FSR as @K-in-Boston  (but perhaps more so than @Remedios ) No!!!!!

 

Those two concepts are the same.

 

Suppose you want to buy something for $150.      I give some LTL special glittery stones and say you need 10,000 of them to make the purchase.    Mmmm, wonder how much each stone is worth.

 

Well, using the trusty formula:  Value = TotalPrice/NumberUsed we find that each stone is worth, in cents 15,000/10,000 = 1.5c per glittery stone (cpgs).    And how many stones do we need to buy say $1.50.   Well, NumberNeeded=Price/Value = 1500/1.5 = 100.

 

When I saw your numbers I thought maybe you were doing a different meaningful calculation, taking into account, for example, that you could have paid with a 2% card so the points really aren't quite 1.5 and 1.25 in that view.


The CSR earns 3 cents per dollar spent on travel. One cent is worth one point.

 

It takes 33% less points to buy travel on the Chase portal with a CSR x1.5. That is 33% off or 33% back that you don't have to spend.

 

Thus the 3 cents per dollar has 33% more value (4 cents per dollar)

 

If the CSR divisor was x2.0 travel would be 50% off and the 3 cents per dollar now worth 4.5.


CSR earns points, not cents. What cents are worth depends on how they are used.

 

On the Chase portal there are "paying with cash" prices as well as "paying with points" prices (and paying with a mix of points and cash). It's not accurate to say travel is "33% off". You simply have the option of paying with a cash currency vs. an award currency.

 

And for that matter, your mistake in "33% more value" (vs. 50%) may become clearer in an extreme example:

 

Let's say I sold you a $1,000,000 house for 1 UR point. By your incorrect method of calculation, you'd only getting be 99.999999% more value...or about 2 cents per point.

Spend: BofA PR + WWFCR, BBP, Schwab Platinum, Freedom x 2, Costco, Discover
Perks: IHG49, Hyatt75, Delta Platinum, "Old" SPG95
SD/AAoA Ballast: Arrival, CFU, DC
Upgrade/downgrade games: BCE, EDP
Mostly earning MRs and cash back as I use up hotel and airline points spread across several programs.
Message 49 of 81
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Valued Contributor

Re: What updates do you hope to see with CSP/CSR revamp?

One thing the Sapphire twins have going for them is the primary rental car coverage. This is a rare bird without having to pay extra (like Amex asks). I'm hoping this stays as it's more than covered my CSP AF in itself.

 

As for overcoming the new Freedom twins, a solid 3/4 on grocery spend almost feels like a gimme during these times, but Chase obviously needs to look well into the future for where they want their premier cards to land. I do think it'd be worthwhile to bring Disney back to the travel portal, as well as nix the Disney credit card (which is really a ho-hum value to begin with). While doing this, add a 2/3 or 3/4 UR category for entertainment (which would pick up Disneyland spend, along with movie theatres, musicals, zoos, museums, concerts, etc. Once the world opens back up, people are going to be busting out of their cages and I sure there's going to be significant spend in these categories.) This would go right along with Chase targeting Capital One cardholders. Upping the ante on dining and also being a no FTF card would aim squarely at Savor and neuter its value. Savor card holders would mostly have credit profiles that Chase would be interested in doing business with as well.

 

For travel, the Sapphires could at least match the 5% travel portal offering, but with this already being on a no AF card, it would be redundant in my book and having this separate gives enticement to have more than one Chase credit card product. Book your flights and hotels through the portal on one card, go spend internationally on the other. Transfer UR's as necessary.

 

One thing that would literally cost Chase some IT work would be adding Chip+pin ability and add a great deal of value for international use and give it a one-up on most travel cards offered in the USA. Add 2/3 for fuel purchases, bump CSP's AF to $135 and leave CSR at $550 and I think you've got a solid, all around travel card. Possibly up the ante by a point on CSR when transferring UR's to partner point networks if you think more value for $550 is needed.

Amex PRG (NPSL), Amex Blue Cash ($24K), Amex Simply Cash+ ($4K), Amex Business Cash ($22.5K), Discover ($22.7K), Cap 1 Union Plus MC ($2500), Chase FU Visa Sig ($12K), Chase F Visa Sig ($8.3K), Chase CSP Visa Sig($6.5K), FCB/Elan Rewards Visa Sig($15K), Buckle ($1.3K), BofA AAA Rewards ($84.5K), Paypal credit ($10K), BBVA Clearpoints ($7.5K), Cap 1 Savor ($10K), PenFed PCR ($3500), Bank of the West CB MC ($3K)
Message 50 of 81
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