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Why Chase (Freedom) Can't Compete with Discover

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kdm31091
Super Contributor

Re: Why Chase (Freedom) Can't Compete with Discover

And actually no, I didnt know the promo was only for new customers. As far as I knew when I signed up, anyone could sign up
Message 31 of 66
CreditCuriosity
Moderator Emeritus

Re: Why Chase (Freedom) Can't Compete with Discover

If I continue and you continue this thread will be locked.. Thus I will walk away from the thread.. Something you should learn to do on some threads as well, when you disagree..  Until the next thread we butt heads on.

Message 32 of 66
kdm31091
Super Contributor

Re: Why Chase (Freedom) Can't Compete with Discover

Well, you are indeed the one who replied and accused me of taking advantage of things. You incited the debate. I was just commenting on the topic at hand, and nothing more. But we won't split hairs. Have a good day.
Message 33 of 66
kdm31091
Super Contributor

Re: Why Chase (Freedom) Can't Compete with Discover

Nevermind. 

Message 34 of 66
kdm31091
Super Contributor

Re: Why Chase (Freedom) Can't Compete with Discover

On the topic, no, Chase doesnt have to match discovers promo, but since freedom is the competitor to discover, youd think theyd be doing something extra, regardless of other bonuses they offer (that not everyone benefits from).
Message 35 of 66
yfan
Valued Contributor

Re: Why Chase (Freedom) Can't Compete with Discover


@wacdenney wrote:

I would expect some amount of limitation on the Freedom categories due to the fact that UR points are worth so much more than 5%.  It seems like you're comparing apples to oranges by comparing categories that earn cash back exclusively compared to categories that earn UR points that can be transfered to partners.

 

It takes a lot of qualifiers to level the playing field in order to compare the two on a purely cash back standard of measure.  Does anyone actually even redeem UR points for cash back??  If Discover offered a transferable point program than you might have a point, but as it stands I think your comparison is a stretch.


I have always maintained that this is a spurious argument. Point valuations necessarily have to discount cash sales (put another way, you are assuming constant value of cash, which isn't true in case of a sale), alternative plans in dates and accomodations etc.

 

Take this example - times/dates/places are examples only:

 

Sure, a mid-November flight on BA First Class from New York to London may give you fantastic ... "value"... but that is assuming a kind of inflexibility in vacation planning that is almost never the case. One doesn't have to vacation in the middle of November, go on first class, book a British Airways flight or go to London. Yet the point-valuation of this flight will be based on assumptions that all those were set in stone. I could travel in January, go to Berlin, travel a cheaper airline with on-sale tickets in economy class. But you cannot factor in this alternative planning into your points redemption value.

 

I can almost always find a cash sale suitable for my vacations that would make point redemptions look like a joke. The converse is probably also true - that there are bonus point redemption/transfer sales etc (but then points also get devalued). But with the rise of search algorithms finding bare bottom air ticket prices, websites like Travelzoo and Groupon Getaway that put together amazing deals on air-hotel-tour-all-expense-paid packages on cash sales, I'd have no need for points/miles. But more to the point, these things aren't accounted for - nor can be accounted for - when doing a straight points-to-cash ticket value comparison for a fixed itinerary.

 

So as far as I'm concerned, I can actually stretch the value of cash better than I would be able to with points. That makes Discover even more valuable for me. You don't have to be the same way, but the comparison is entirely fair.

Message 36 of 66
wacdenney
Valued Contributor

Re: Why Chase (Freedom) Can't Compete with Discover


@kdm31091 wrote:
On the topic, no, Chase doesnt have to match discovers promo, but since freedom is the competitor to discover, youd think theyd be doing something extra, regardless of other bonuses they offer (that not everyone benefits from).

The thing is that they are NOT competitors.  Freedom is a UR card and Discover is for plain cash back.  It's apples and oranges to compare the value of the UR program to plain cash back.  The value in the UR program is completely different from the value in cash back and I don't think most people are leveraging Freedom for cash back and if they are then they are missing the boat in a big way. 

 

You have to go way out of your way to narrow your discussion to cash back in order to frame these two cards as competitors and in doing so you really negate the entire argument.  You could just as easily be comparing Slate to Discover IT in terms of BT explusively and ignoring the cash back benefit of the Discover card.  Chase offers many cards that do many specific things very well where Discover offers very few cards with wider appeal.  Different strategies and different things all together really.

 

If you want to draw comparisons then compare like things.  The value in Freedom is NOT in cash back and it makes little sense to compare categories that earn an entirely different rewards structure.

Message 37 of 66
longtimelurker
Epic Contributor

Re: Why Chase (Freedom) Can't Compete with Discover


@kdm31091 wrote:
I agree that sadly this years promos on discover may only happen once because people will take advantage of them. However, chase hasnt even done a comparable promo

It may simply be too expensive.   Recall when the DC came up, people pointed out that in the past 2% across the board cards haven't fared well.   And this is much worse (for them!)

 

Credit card companies do make mistkes that lead to nerfing (Chase 5% for 6 months, CIti 5x TYP, BCP uncapped, Cash Plus uncapped etc) and this may turn out to be one, in which case it won't be repeated!   

Message 38 of 66
longtimelurker
Epic Contributor

Re: Why Chase (Freedom) Can't Compete with Discover


@yfan wrote:

@wacdenney wrote:

I would expect some amount of limitation on the Freedom categories due to the fact that UR points are worth so much more than 5%.  It seems like you're comparing apples to oranges by comparing categories that earn cash back exclusively compared to categories that earn UR points that can be transfered to partners.

 

It takes a lot of qualifiers to level the playing field in order to compare the two on a purely cash back standard of measure.  Does anyone actually even redeem UR points for cash back??  If Discover offered a transferable point program than you might have a point, but as it stands I think your comparison is a stretch.


I have always maintained that this is a spurious argument. Point valuations necessarily have to discount cash sales (put another way, you are assuming constant value of cash, which isn't true in case of a sale), alternative plans in dates and accomodations etc.

 

Take this example - times/dates/places are examples only:

 

Sure, a mid-November flight on BA First Class from New York to London may give you fantastic ... "value"... but that is assuming a kind of inflexibility in vacation planning that is almost never the case. One doesn't have to vacation in the middle of November, go on first class, book a British Airways flight or go to London. Yet the point-valuation of this flight will be based on assumptions that all those were set in stone. I could travel in January, go to Berlin, travel a cheaper airline with on-sale tickets in economy class. But you cannot factor in this alternative planning into your points redemption value.

 

I can almost always find a cash sale suitable for my vacations that would make point redemptions look like a joke. The converse is probably also true - that there are bonus point redemption/transfer sales etc (but then points also get devalued). But with the rise of search algorithms finding bare bottom air ticket prices, websites like Travelzoo and Groupon Getaway that put together amazing deals on air-hotel-tour-all-expense-paid packages on cash sales, I'd have no need for points/miles. But more to the point, these things aren't accounted for - nor can be accounted for - when doing a straight points-to-cash ticket value comparison for a fixed itinerary.

 

So as far as I'm concerned, I can actually stretch the value of cash better than I would be able to with points. That makes Discover even more valuable for me. You don't have to be the same way, but the comparison is entirely fair.


But some people do want to fly to destination X, first class, in a certain month.  And it does make sense to look for the cheapest cash price for the SAME flight, and get a valuation, for those people.    And yes, if you are more flexible, then cash might be able to get you a better deal than any points (e.g. domestic coach).   But to extend your argument, maybe I don't need to travel at all (in which case cash is certainly better)

Message 39 of 66
yfan
Valued Contributor

Re: Why Chase (Freedom) Can't Compete with Discover


@wacdenney wrote:

If you want to draw comparisons then compare like things.  The value in Freedom is NOT in cash back and it makes little sense to compare categories that earn an entirely different rewards structure.


The value of every reward program is ultimately in cash. That's why we hear about lavish cents-per-point valuations, which I pointed out the shortcomings of above. Be that as it may, though, part of my original argument is that the precise fact that the Freedom earns UR points is a key reason Chase is weakening its categories.

Message 40 of 66
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