@CreditCrusader wrote:
@Anonymous wrote:
Not to be a jerk, but exactly how do you know so much about AMEX's FR protocol, document & data retention policies? You stated you would walk if FR'd so I assume you've not been through an AMEX FR. Just looking for first hand validation is all.
Even if I didn't personally know folks who have been FR'd or read the experiences of those on this forum who have gone through the process, the AmEx FR protocol is not a secret. The only way AmEx can get an IRS tax transcript is via a 4506 T. That much is no secret.
I do not know AmEx's document and data retention policies and neither do you. That in and of itself worries me. Do they receive the transcripts and open them in a sterile environment using only bonded employees with a top secret security clearance? Do these employees view the data and then immediately shred and incinerate the transcripts after making the decision whether to AA? If they do not - and my guess is they don't - then doesn't Sarbanes-Oxley require them to maintain business records for several years? Unless AmEx can show exactly how they manage this sensitive data, I choose not to trust them with it.
Besides, I see absolutely no reason whatsoever why AmEx needs to know names & SSN of all members of my family much less any of the literally dozens of data points above and beyond gross income found on my tax returns. Ever. And all for a common credit card the likes of which you can obtain from a score of other banks, none of which will likely ever ask you for a 4506 T.
9 times out of 10 there are far less intrusive ways to verify a cardmember's income. Not using them is in and of itself highly suspicious in my book.
With all due respect, I think it may be you who is missing the point here. No one denies that Amex's FR policy is invasive. The question originally was why a FR is so bad. My contention is FRs aren't all that bad because they are 100% voluntary. No one is forced to turn over that info...and among those who do hand it over and sweat it, there is a reason they are sweating it. If you don't mind providing credentials to ascertain continued credit worthiness, and you have been honest about your information, you have little to worry about. As for the idea that such determinations should only take place BEFORE issuing credit, that is nonsense. When someone's income and abilities to pay changes, a creditor has a right to take that information into account before handing over unsecured credit.
by the way, earlier in the thread you asked about attitudes toward the FBI collecting sensitive information about us and our families. I'd be shocked if they didn't already have a file with such information sitting in someone's laptop or other electronic storage device right now. Privacy is a myth by and large...especially when something as controlling and paranoid as the federal government is involved.
You're missing the point.
A FR may be voluntary, but failure to comply gets your account closed. To some people that may not seem to voluntary. Further, your logic about financial circumstances changing doesn't hold water. First of all, everybody's financial circumstances can change so why don't they just FR everybody? Maybe when you and your family return from a trip to the mall your house should be locked up so you can't enter while your mortgage holder does a FR. According to your logic, that should be ok.
I seriously doubt you have any type of even halfway valid statistics that show that those who don't like AmEx's FR have something to hide.
You'd be rather disappointed then to learn that the FBI only has information from tax returns on an extremely small number of people and even then they got it with a court order. Anything else they may have is largely public knowledge. What data they do have isn't your main worry; why they have it is. If not under criminal investigation, I'd trust the FBI with my tax return data more than I would AmEx.
If you do not mind AmEx having your tax returns, that's up to you. As an adult that's what free choice is about. I'm just pointing out the risks.
Personally, I wll not release my tax returns. AmEx has a proven history of taking AA based on simple factors such as swiping your card at an inner-city Wal-Mart. If they can't even be trusted with simple data obtained by you swiping your card, I see no reason giving them even more detailed and sensitive data points. Where I work and my salary is a matter of public record, if USAA or Navy Federal or even Barclays is smart enough to realize that then AmEx should be, too.
