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Viral Tweet About Apple Card Leads to Probe into Goldman Sachs

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Anonymous
Not applicable

Re: Viral Tweet About Apple Card Leads to Probe into Goldman Sachs


@Anonymous wrote:

If he had said "X happened and things do not seem correct because of Y". That would be different. Maybe the algorithm just is not very good at assessment of risk. Maybe GS are not very good at credit cards. Maybe GS is incompetent. Numerous possibilities. Nope. Sexism. 100%.


Exactly the issue I have with all of this. Be armed with facts before you start a witch hunt. 

Message 21 of 49
Brian_Earl_Spilner
Credit Mentor

Re: Viral Tweet About Apple Card Leads to Probe into Goldman Sachs


@designated_knitter wrote:

My last post on this topic because how can you really argue when someone insists that "this is just a witch hunt", and "I highly doubt sexism is happening".  

 

Despite studies showing that women are generally better drivers than men, after the age of 25, women and men basically pay the same for auto insurance:  

 

https://www.thezebra.com/auto-insurance/male-vs-female-car-insurance-rates/

 

So if women are better drivers than men statistically speaking, then why don't insurance rates reflect that?  

 

In addition, machine-learning credit algorithms can and do find ways to be more biased in granting credit:

 

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/zmpgp9/credit-scores-could-soon-get-even-creepier-and-more-biased

 

A quote from the article:  

 

"One study from last year on using so-called "digital footprints" to generate credit scores found that iPhone users were more likely to pay loans back than Android users. "The simple act of accessing or registering on a webpage leaves valuable information," the authors wrote.

The algorithms likely wouldn't be told the race or gender of an applicant, but that doesn't prevent the system from making guesses and reflecting existing biases. A 2018 study found that both "face-to-face and FinTech lenders charge Latinx/African-American borrowers 6-9 basis points higher interest rates."

 

Researchers have previously raised the alarm that AI programs could effectively reinstate redlining and similar practices by churning through deeply biased or incomplete data to produce a seemingly objective number. In 2017, Stanford University researchers found that even an ostensibly "fair" algorithm in a pretrial setting can be injected with bias in favour of a particular group, depending on the composition of the training data."

 

In short -- nothing I say is going to change anyone's mind here.  

 

Maybe this guy was a nut-job.  Again, it sounds like there is more to the story than just the 2 links that were posted at the top of this thread.  

 

But to say without doing any research at all that bias doesn't exist, to claim it was a witch hunt and politically motivated is naive at best and woefully ignorant.  

 

(I apologize in advance to the moderators if I have crossed the line).

 

Cheers!


You just proved my point. Up to age 25 they pay different rates. After 25 they level out. The 14% difference up to age 25 is because they are males.

 

As for highly doubting there's sexism, I didn't say with absolute certainty that it wasn't happening. If you go back to my previous post I say that to think that sex isn't factored in at all would be foolish. I just highly doubt it was intentionally sexism. The bank's main goal is to find a balance between minimizing risk while maximizing profits. The algorithm is created using the data they have, not because the board of directors felt men should have higher credit limits. If they do find something, the question will be who ok'd it and why did they choose the variables and restrictions they did. It very well could be sexism, or a disgruntled programmer who slipped in a few extra lines of code out of spite, or it could simply just be an error in the coding. Won't know until the investigation is done.

 

    
Message 22 of 49
Revelate
Moderator Emeritus

Re: Viral Tweet About Apple Card Leads to Probe into Goldman Sachs

Won’t belabor the problems with the underlying assumptions except to point out the score you can buy from TU is still VS 3.0.

Any claims of higher creditworthiness have to be taken with a grain of salt anyway without posting both credit reports but the higher score is a red herring unless it was what GS used to underwrite the applications.

As someone else mentioned there are tons of bits of information that get used in credit or employment decisions: a possible project client went and found my nearly non-existent LinkedIn profile recently... betcha I don’t get the gig looking at their about us page, whereas other companies don’t hold a pointedly small social media profile against me.



        
Message 23 of 49
Anonymous
Not applicable

Re: Viral Tweet About Apple Card Leads to Probe into Goldman Sachs

@Revelate "possible project client went and found my nearly non-existent LinkedIn profile recently... betcha I don’t get the gig looking at their about us page"

Scary part of online and social media. You never know what might lurk on us? Smiley Sad
Message 24 of 49
Anonymous
Not applicable

Re: Viral Tweet About Apple Card Leads to Probe into Goldman Sachs

wozniak claims the same thing happened to his wife, the plot thickens!

Message 25 of 49
designated_knitter
Established Contributor

Re: Viral Tweet About Apple Card Leads to Probe into Goldman Sachs

Woz's wife obviously has a weak profile!  /* sarcasm */

Started Over Again after Cap1 Death Penalty:
06/15/2019:
03/02/2021:
04/06/2021:
05/28/2021:
Lesson Learned: DON'T POKE THE BEAR!!! THE BEAR WILL WIN!!!
Message 26 of 49
Anonymous
Not applicable

Re: Viral Tweet About Apple Card Leads to Probe into Goldman Sachs


@designated_knitter wrote:

Woz's wife obviously has a weak profile!  /* sarcasm */


We have no idea what their profile looks like.

 

Honestly, We need more datapoints. Isolated cases from high profile people does not mean anything. Using it to create media headlines is tho. To me all seems to be trying portray that GS is discriminatory before everything is brought to the table. They haven't even had a chance to start their investigation and already trying to say they are guilty.

 

People need to report what their credit factors are such as AAoA, Credit Util, their income etc. We need datapoints from others and datapoints from couples that applied for accounts. Why not toss in some gay couples into the mix that applied for accounts and see what kind of CL's they got. 

 

If they are pulling crap the more data the public provides the more evidence we can see they are pulling crap.

 

Perhaps the algorithm takes additional people at the same address as higher risk and adjusts CL accordingly. I still find it hard to beleive that it's your a woman so you automatically get a lower CL regardless. If this is truely what is happening and they base CL purely on gender it would create a PR storm for GS and Apple for a long time to come. I wouldn't think they would be that stupid in the current climate. 

 

With that all said Investgate with a open mind and look at everything. Don't go in with a bias that they are discriminatory 100% and nothing else could be causing it

 

Message 27 of 49
RickNATL
Established Contributor

Re: Apple Card algorithm discriminates

I agree with Creds. Android users are left out....lol...but we found a way....
Message 28 of 49
redpat
Senior Contributor

News of GS and Apple cards

FYI, If you are a female and approved for an Apple card you may want to call and request a CLI if you felt your CL was too low.

 

It appears that GS's algorithm may have been bias towards female applicants.

Personal Cards: Amex Plat | Amex Delta Res | CSR | Citi AA Exec Business Cards: Ink+ | Amex BGR
Message 29 of 49
Anonymous
Not applicable

Re: News of GS and Apple cards


@redpat wrote:

FYI, If you are a female and approved for an Apple card you may want to call and request a CLI if you felt your CL was too low.

 

It appears that GS's algorithm may have been bias towards female applicants.


Why would you want a CLI if the algorithm is biased towards you?

Message 30 of 49
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