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New Vantage Score coming

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Moderator Emeritus

Re: New Vantage Score coming


@EW800 wrote:

Reading through the particulars of Vantage 4.0, I see that it mentions "trended credit data", which if I understand it correctly, would mean that it does not do a static calculation of utilization at that particular moment, instead looking at utilization and other areas over time.  

 

How do some of you feel about this?  I am sure as far as getting instant gratification when we bring down utilization, we would not like this as much, however it does seem that this would be a bit more "fair" (not that credit scoring cares about that...) when there is a temporary spike in util for whatever reason.  i guess the million dollar question is if trended data is any better predictor of future credit problems than static scoring is.  

 

Just wondering how some of you feel about this aspect of vantage 4.0?  I would certainly think that FICO has kicked this around and obviously must feel that an instant static picture is better, at least as of now.  Who knows in FICO 10 and beyond.  

 

 


I would assume it may use both.

 

Trended data potentialy fixes the all-zero's thing which we keep seeing random people get whacked with.

 

Trended data absolutely fixes it so that transactors (those that PIF every month) can be identified regardless of what their balances are: no more PIF before statement date BS, which sucks, let me autopay statement balance and go on with life please and not be penalized for it.

 

Trended data can show past financial stress which may not show up if it has been rectified, but how that'd be integrated into the algorithm as it's done by UW already I don't know.

 

For all 3 of these, yes I assume trended data would provide a more accurate picture, but whether or not the industry adopts it widely I don't know... I just recently looked at my reports to see and the overwhelming majority of major credit card issuers do not report the trended data, and Chase used to but stopped in March 2016 by my reports for their credit cards... though they were still reporting for Chase Mortgage, weirdsauce that.

 

I would expect it in FICO 10, I actually expected it in FICO 9 but don't think it made it in and I don't know why it was cut... probably as the data is still too sparse to be much use, but Vantage has a lot less to lose and can afford to be forward looking and historically FICO follows Vantage innovations in their next release.

 




        
Message 11 of 34
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Moderator

Re: New Vantage Score coming

@Revelate

 

Thansk for the replies.  Very informative and helpful.  

Message 12 of 34
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Valued Contributor

Re: New Vantage Score coming


@Revelate wrote:

@EW800 wrote:

Reading through the particulars of Vantage 4.0, I see that it mentions "trended credit data", which if I understand it correctly, would mean that it does not do a static calculation of utilization at that particular moment, instead looking at utilization and other areas over time.  

 

How do some of you feel about this?  I am sure as far as getting instant gratification when we bring down utilization, we would not like this as much, however it does seem that this would be a bit more "fair" (not that credit scoring cares about that...) when there is a temporary spike in util for whatever reason.  i guess the million dollar question is if trended data is any better predictor of future credit problems than static scoring is.  

 

Just wondering how some of you feel about this aspect of vantage 4.0?  I would certainly think that FICO has kicked this around and obviously must feel that an instant static picture is better, at least as of now.  Who knows in FICO 10 and beyond.  

 

 


I would assume it may use both.

 

Trended data potentialy fixes the all-zero's thing which we keep seeing random people get whacked with.

 

Trended data absolutely fixes it so that transactors (those that PIF every month) can be identified regardless of what their balances are: no more PIF before statement date BS, which sucks, let me autopay statement balance and go on with life please and not be penalized for it.

 

Trended data can show past financial stress which may not show up if it has been rectified, but how that'd be integrated into the algorithm as it's done by UW already I don't know.

 

For all 3 of these, yes I assume trended data would provide a more accurate picture, but whether or not the industry adopts it widely I don't know... I just recently looked at my reports to see and the overwhelming majority of major credit card issuers do not report the trended data, and Chase used to but stopped in March 2016 by my reports for their credit cards... though they were still reporting for Chase Mortgage, weirdsauce that.

 

I would expect it in FICO 10, I actually expected it in FICO 9 but don't think it made it in and I don't know why it was cut... probably as the data is still too sparse to be much use, but Vantage has a lot less to lose and can afford to be forward looking and historically FICO follows Vantage innovations in their next release.

 


Excellent point in regard to the all-zero issue.  I believe many of us here have scratched our heads or been frustrated over that aspect.  On my profile, I really get whacked when I report all zeros (did it twice intentionally).  

 

In regard to the blue above, how did you determine which cards report trending data?  Would this be the history that shows the reported balance each specific month, or something other than that?  

 

 

 

 

Year 2012: All Scores in the 520 range, during a foreclosure, CC Settlement and high UTIL. Very ugly days...
June 2020: EX8: 850; EQ8: 850; TU8: 850 -- Middle Mortgage Score: 824
In My Wallet: Discover $73.7K; Cap1 Venture $42.7K; Amex ED $38K; Amex Optima $2.5K; Amex Delta Gold $18K; Citi Costco $19.5K; Cap1 Plat $8.4K; Barclay $7K; BoA Plat $21.6K; Citi TY Pref $19K; US Bank $4K; Dell $5K; Care Credit $6.5K. Total Revolving CL: $277K
My UTIL: Less than 1% - Only allow about $10 a month to report, on one account. .
Message 13 of 34
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Moderator Emeritus

Re: New Vantage Score coming


@EW800 wrote:

@Revelate wrote:

@EW800 wrote:

Reading through the particulars of Vantage 4.0, I see that it mentions "trended credit data", which if I understand it correctly, would mean that it does not do a static calculation of utilization at that particular moment, instead looking at utilization and other areas over time.  

 

How do some of you feel about this?  I am sure as far as getting instant gratification when we bring down utilization, we would not like this as much, however it does seem that this would be a bit more "fair" (not that credit scoring cares about that...) when there is a temporary spike in util for whatever reason.  i guess the million dollar question is if trended data is any better predictor of future credit problems than static scoring is.  

 

Just wondering how some of you feel about this aspect of vantage 4.0?  I would certainly think that FICO has kicked this around and obviously must feel that an instant static picture is better, at least as of now.  Who knows in FICO 10 and beyond.  

 

 


I would assume it may use both.

 

Trended data potentialy fixes the all-zero's thing which we keep seeing random people get whacked with.

 

Trended data absolutely fixes it so that transactors (those that PIF every month) can be identified regardless of what their balances are: no more PIF before statement date BS, which sucks, let me autopay statement balance and go on with life please and not be penalized for it.

 

Trended data can show past financial stress which may not show up if it has been rectified, but how that'd be integrated into the algorithm as it's done by UW already I don't know.

 

For all 3 of these, yes I assume trended data would provide a more accurate picture, but whether or not the industry adopts it widely I don't know... I just recently looked at my reports to see and the overwhelming majority of major credit card issuers do not report the trended data, and Chase used to but stopped in March 2016 by my reports for their credit cards... though they were still reporting for Chase Mortgage, weirdsauce that.

 

I would expect it in FICO 10, I actually expected it in FICO 9 but don't think it made it in and I don't know why it was cut... probably as the data is still too sparse to be much use, but Vantage has a lot less to lose and can afford to be forward looking and historically FICO follows Vantage innovations in their next release.

 


Excellent point in regard to the all-zero issue.  I believe many of us here have scratched our heads or been frustrated over that aspect.  On my profile, I really get whacked when I report all zeros (did it twice intentionally).  

 

In regard to the blue above, how did you determine which cards report trending data?  Would this be the history that shows the reported balance each specific month, or something other than that?  

 

 

 

 


If you look at the reports from the bureau (annualcreditreport.com style) you'll see the tradeline data on all 3.

 

I just looked at a recent TU / EX reports and just did a quick looksee for all my tradelines, TU was super easy as there's different fields on the report for a tradeline where the trend data is being reported.

 

Ah found the post: http://ficoforums.myfico.com/t5/Credit-Cards/Letting-Balances-Post/m-p/4932866/highlight/true#M14414...

 

but to summarize: "still sorting out but it's nowhere close to universal at least among my lenders, and frankly BOFA is the only one among the top 6 that is doing it: Amex, Cap 1, Chase, Citi, Discover... that's a lot of strikes against it.  TBH I thought more of the big issuers were furnishing the extended data."




        
Message 14 of 34
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Valued Contributor

Re: New Vantage Score coming

Thank you, Revelate! Sincerely appreciate all the knowledge and experience that you bring to this forum!

Year 2012: All Scores in the 520 range, during a foreclosure, CC Settlement and high UTIL. Very ugly days...
June 2020: EX8: 850; EQ8: 850; TU8: 850 -- Middle Mortgage Score: 824
In My Wallet: Discover $73.7K; Cap1 Venture $42.7K; Amex ED $38K; Amex Optima $2.5K; Amex Delta Gold $18K; Citi Costco $19.5K; Cap1 Plat $8.4K; Barclay $7K; BoA Plat $21.6K; Citi TY Pref $19K; US Bank $4K; Dell $5K; Care Credit $6.5K. Total Revolving CL: $277K
My UTIL: Less than 1% - Only allow about $10 a month to report, on one account. .
Message 15 of 34
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Super Contributor

Re: New Vantage Score coming

Regarding which CC issuers are reporting trended data (and how fully)...

 

I will be pulling all three of my credit reports via ACR in a couple months, and I'll let you all know what I see then.  I have cards with BOA, Amex, Chase, Elan, Citi, Wells Fargo.  One more datapoint from another person later in the year.

 

As Revelate explains, the trended data are only visible in a full blown report of the sort like you get from annualCreditReport.com.  Reports from tools like myFICO, Karma, Credit Check Total, etc. will not include these data.

Message 16 of 34
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Moderator Emeritus

Re: New Vantage Score coming


@CreditGuyInDixie wrote:

Regarding which CC issuers are reporting trended data (and how fully)...

 

I will be pulling all three of my credit reports via ACR in a couple months, and I'll let you all know what I see then.  I have cards with BOA, Amex, Chase, Elan, Citi, Wells Fargo.  One more datapoint from another person later in the year.

 

As Revelate explains, the trended data are only visible in a full blown report of the sort like you get from annualCreditReport.com.  Reports from tools like myFICO, Karma, Credit Check Total, etc. will not include these data.


I'm hoping that changes and is just an artifact of old software implementations: CK/MF were both developed originally as products way before trended data was remotely relevant on credit reports, but it'd probably suffer the same issues as the bureaus' reports: TLDR style.

 




        
Message 17 of 34
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Valued Contributor

Re: New Vantage Score coming

Seems Vantage scores are pretty worthless.  I had two charge offs come of my Trans Union report..  Vantage went down 11 points and Fico 8 went up 63 points.  So to Vantage  23k in charge off credit cards is a good thing.  No wonder no one uses their system.   

More cards than I can mention in a signature.
Message 18 of 34
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Valued Contributor

Re: New Vantage Score coming


@atomicfront wrote:

Seems Vantage scores are pretty worthless.  I had two charge offs come of my Trans Union report..  Vantage went down 11 points and Fico 8 went up 63 points.  So to Vantage  23k in charge off credit cards is a good thing.  No wonder no one uses their system.   


I wouldn't say Vantage scores are "worthless", myself, and neither would apartment rental companies, or they wouldn't be using them in preference to FICO. Neither would the CRA's or they wouldn't be putting so much time, effort and money into updating and improving Vantage. From the original article, it seems quite a few lenders do take Vantage scores into account as one factor in their UW calculations, though FICO is still the primary score and will most likely remain so over at least the next few years. I do know, for my own part, that my Vantage scores have been consistently higher than my FICO scores on all three CRA's, most strikingly in the case of TU, where my VS is currently 684 as opposed to FICO's most recent 627 (though that's because of the delay in my Penfed car loan reporting to TU; Vantage updated last week, I'm still waiting to see what the next FICO score is).

Ch 7 BK discharged 11/28/14, credit rebuild well advanced. FICO:TU 680 FICO 8 (3/2/19) or 687 FICO 9/EX 694 FICO 8/EQ 685 FICO 8 or 674 FICO 9 (NFCU 3/3/19), VS 3.0 10/17/18: TU 702/EX 699/EQ 698. $92.9k revolving credit as of 1/31/19; $1K NFCU cashRewards Visa, $2K BJ's Perks MC, $5.1k Discover It #1, $6.5k Discover It #2 (new 3/12/18), $3.5k Petal Visa, $6k Paypal 2% CB MC, $6k Amazon Prime Store Card, $6k Walmart Store Card, $7k Apple FCU Platinum Visa, $7k Penfed Power Cash Rewards Visa, $11.8k Overstock Store Card, $15K Care Credit, $16K Cap One QS Rewards Visa Signature, $10k PenFed used car loan, $5k Navient student loan, $12.7k Lending Club loan. Gardening: 3 months, 19 days as of 1/31/19. 24 HP inqs total as of 10/12/18: 10 TU, 9 EQ, 5 EX (about half over 1 year old).
Message 19 of 34
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Moderator Emeritus

Re: New Vantage Score coming


@atomicfront wrote:

Seems Vantage scores are pretty worthless.  I had two charge offs come of my Trans Union report..  Vantage went down 11 points and Fico 8 went up 63 points.  So to Vantage  23k in charge off credit cards is a good thing.  No wonder no one uses their system.   


More likely it's just not counting data past some time frame, like 4 years or similar.  Not sure, I have a dumbly good score on Vantage compared to FICO 8 (though not compared to FICO 9 interestingly enough) and I have a bunch of negative history from 2010.

 

Then again on TU I have recent negatives (10/2015 30D late) on TU and I'm markedly lower than all FICO scores on that one.

 

I don't think it's worthless, but just like FICO it's not a complete picture.




        
Message 20 of 34
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